Mr. JENNER. And that Ducharme Club is the club, the private club,
semi-private club in Dallas that you mentioned in your testimony this
morning.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Lastly, a single-page exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 1039,
dated at Munich, Germany, on July 31, 1963.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1039 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. This purports to be a copy of a letter apparently from you
to Larrie Schmidt, is that correct, sir?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And this is a carbon copy of the actual letter?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you mail the original of this?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I did.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Larrie Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. On or about the date this letter bears?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. DULLES. What date is that?
Mr. JENNER. July 21, 1963.
On Commission Exhibit No. 1043, which is the envelope which enclosed
several other exhibits, there is some handwriting. It that yours?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you read it.
Mr. WEISSMAN. "Membership List 1962. Code of Conduct and Introduction
to CUSA. Ultimatum."
Mr. JENNER. And that is a shorthand description or summary of the
contents of the envelope?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On Commission Exhibit No. 1048, which is also an envelope,
there appears to be written on the face "NIC Infiltration." Whose
handwriting it that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's mine.
Mr. JENNER. And you put it on there under the circumstances you have
now related?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Weissman, I will show you Commission Exhibit No. 996.
Have you ever seen a counterpart of that exhibit which is entitled
"Wanted for Treason"?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never directly.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about your first acquaintance with that, with the
circumstances, if you know, of how it came into existence, and who had
anything to do with it.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I can only go by hearsay on this--what I have seen
and what I have heard from other individuals.
Mr. JENNER. Did this come to your attention before November 22, 1963,
or after?
Mr. WEISSMAN. After.
Mr. JENNER. Tell what you know, please.
Mr. WEISSMAN. I had heard that these handbills were distributed
somewhere in North Dallas, I believe, on the university campus I
believe it was, the University of Dallas campus.
Mr. JENNER. From what source did you hear this?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Now, I think it was--I am not sure--I think it might have
been Larrie or his brother Bob. I am not sure. Larrie declaimed any
knowledge of this. I know he had nothing to do with this particular
handbill.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He would have told me.
Mr. JENNER. That's the basis for your supposition?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; and I saw this handbill, or something similar to
it, in the back of a station wagon used by Larrie's brother Bob in
transporting----
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This was several days after the assassination. There
was one crumpled up in the back. And I happened to look through the
window and see it. This was in front of the Ducharme Club, as a
matter of fact. It was one night. And I saw this. And I saw something
"Treason"--I had heard about the handbills.
Mr. JENNER. From whom?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me?
Mr. JENNER. From whom, sir?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I think it was Larrie. I cannot be hundred percent sure.
I did not take too much interest in it at the time. But in any case,
I did see something resembling this, only it seemed to be a larger
picture of President Kennedy. But in any case, it was in the back of
a station wagon owned by General Walker, Edwin Walker, or by what--if
incorporated, by the corporation he is with, chairman of.
Mr. JENNER. How did you know that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, I know that Bob was General Walker's chauffeur,
and by seeing this crumpled up in the back, behind the front seat on
the floor of the car, I naturally assumed that it had something to do
with General Walker. Exactly what or how, or if he had distributed it,
I have no idea. I do not have the faintest idea. I did not go into it
any further, because I felt that everything was past, and I was leaving
Dallas anyway. I had made up my mind.
(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. When you say you had heard about this matter, that is the
handbill, or handbill similar to it, had you heard about that before
November 22, 1963?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not to my recollection, no.
Mr. JENNER. Shortly after that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And before you left Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to do with the bringing into
existence of this or similar handbills?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None; none whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Other than the possibility of Bob Schmidt having something
to do with them under the circumstances you have related, did any
others of your group have anything to do with creating this type of
literature and distribution of handbills?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None that I know of.
The CHAIRMAN. How about the names of those people who were in on it?
Mr. JENNER. On the handbill?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted at any time with Robert A. Surrey?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. With Robert G. Klause?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. With J. T. Monk?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted at any time with the Johnson
Printing Co.?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any materials printed--and when I say you, I
mean you or your group--while you were in Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not that I know of. I personally have no knowledge of
anything being printed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of the Lettercraft Printing Co.?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I have not.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of Ashland Frederick Birchwell?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or have any contact with him?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not that I know of. I guess I must have met two or three
dozen people. For example, when we went up to Joe Grinnan's office at
various times, we would come down and eat in the cafeteria, and there
would be somebody sitting with him, and there would be introductions. I
never remembered their names, because it was just in passing. I never
had any personal contact, really.
Mr. JENNER. Did you meet General Walker at any time while you were in
Dallas?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you meet anybody or know anybody by the name of Mercer?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. While you were in Dallas--Mrs. Clifford or Dorothy Mercer?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or Mr. Clifford Mercer?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Definitely not.
Mr. JENNER. Among the exhibits we have identified this afternoon is a
list of members. Those were the members of CUSA as of that particular
time?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the changes in membership you have recounted in your
testimony this morning, is that correct, sir?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I am sorry--I knew I had left something out of
one of those. I do not know which exhibit is. But it is the one that
says----
Mr. JENNER. I will hand them back to you, and you can tell me.
You now have in your hand a sheet of paper.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that sheet of paper came from one of the
envelopes we have already marked?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This one here.
Mr. JENNER. The answer is yes?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I will mark this sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 1051.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1051 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us in what envelope Commission Exhibit No.
1051 was enclosed?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Commission Exhibit No. 1043.
Mr. JENNER. And what is Commission Exhibit No. 1051?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Commission Exhibit No. 1051 was a current membership list
as of about January 4, 1963. If you like, I can go over this and tell
you who was in no way really associated with it at the time or active.
Mr. DULLES. Membership in CUSA?
Mr. WEISSMAN. In CUSA, yes. It lists Larrie Schmidt, Larry C. Jones,
Bernie Weissman, Norman Baker, James Moseley as partners. Members as
Ken Glazbrook, Bob Weiss, who was not active after about--at about the
time this was printed--these men dropped from the active list. Herb
Starr was not active. Chuck McLain was not active. Richard Harsch was
not active. Hank Tanaro was not active. Sheila McDonald was not active.
And the rest of the list were active in one form or another--some to a
much lesser degree than the others.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the 50-odd responses that you received to Commission
Exhibit No. 1031, when you went to the post office box on the following
Sunday, the 24th of November 1963, did you recognize the names of any
of the persons who responded?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None--none at all.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any response from Jack Ruby?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not under his name.
Mr. JENNER. And you say about a third of those responses were favorable
and two-thirds unfavorable.
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Insofar as the questions asked on Exhibit--Commission
Exhibit No. 1031 are concerned?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. When you said there was no letter in the box under the
name of Jack Ruby does that infer that there was one by any other name?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Well, to put it very exact, if I did receive a letter
from Jack Ruby, I have no knowledge of it.
The CHAIRMAN. That is what I wanted to know.
Mr. JENNER. And apart from--I asked you also the general question
whether you recognized any names. I would like to add to that--did
you recognize in reading over any of those letters or responses any
persons, regardless of what name was signed to the document?
Mr. WEISSMAN. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. During the noon recess I have had the witness read through
an interview with him by the FBI on the 5th of December 1963. You have
read that?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; I have.
Mr. JENNER. Does that accurately reflect the interview which the FBI
had with you on that day?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It does. The only variance you might find is that at the
time I had the interview with the FBI, I did not develop the CUSA story
with them. And they did not press the issue, and I did not go into it.
Mr. JENNER. But it does accurately reflect what took place during the
course of that interview.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. What you said--it reports it accurately.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; very accurately.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I was using this method in order to
shorten the balance of Mr. Weissman's testimony. There are many details
here that I wanted to spare the Commission.
I will mark that with the next exhibit number, Commission Exhibit No.
1052.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1052 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, I offer in evidence the exhibits which
have been identified--I will read the exhibit numbers. Commission
Exhibits Nos. 1031 through 1052, both inclusive, with some of the
envelopes designated with subletters A, and one of the other documents
designated with the subletter B. I ask that those exhibits be admitted
in evidence with the exhibit numbers which appear on them, each of
which has been recited in the record.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted under those numbers.
(The documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as
Commission Exhibits Nos. 1031 through 1052 inclusive, were received in
evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. I have no further questions of the witness. Mr. Flannery,
do you have anything?
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, do you have any questions you would like to
ask?
Mr. DULLES. Just one general question. From the questions which have
been addressed to you, Mr. Weissman, you have a general idea of what
the Commission, the area of search of the Commission is so far as you
are concerned.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Did anything occur to you of any significance which you
could add or would like to add to the answers you have made to the
questions you have already given?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Excuse me, please. There is just one thing but it is a
question of--it is not a positive identification or anything like that.
But on the day I went to the post office to pick up the mail there was
a gentleman waiting, observing the box, the post office box in the
Dallas post office. Now, Bill Burley was waiting in my car outside,
driving around the block because the traffic was quite heavy. I went
in with Ken Glazbrook, who had just come to Dallas about a day or so
before by bus from the East Coast. He got off a freighter from Sweden.
And this individual seemed to be about--I would put him at about 60
years old. And I thought about it since. And I said that might have
been Jack Ruby, because he was short enough to be. But my recollection
of the individual that followed me, when we subsequently lost in the
crowd, and jumped into the car and took off, was that one time not more
than 3 feet away from me--though I did not stare into his face, because
I did not know if this fellow was going to shoot me or say something.
Mr. JENNER. You were then frightened; were you not?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir. And we went across through traffic and up a
street and down a street and lost this individual and jumped into the
car and took off back to the apartment. And to this day I do not know
whether it was Ruby--because frankly my recollection of the individual
on the pictures I have seen of Ruby in the newspapers, they do not seem
to jibe--just the size. This fellow was about 5 foot 6 or so. He was
wearing tan clothing with a Stetson hat, a tan Stetson hat.
Mr. JENNER. A typical Texas western hat, sometimes called a 10-gallon
hat?
Mr. WEISSMAN. That's right. And this is about the only thing else I
have to add.
Mr. JENNER. Did he follow you?
Mr. WEISSMAN. He followed us from the box down the steps of the post
office to the traffic light. We crossed the street, he walked up the
other side of the street adjacent to the post office, directly opposite
us. And we were going halfway up and he started to cross the corner. We
quickly ran back to the corner, across which we came. At that time Bill
had come around the corner in the car, he knew nothing about it, we
jumped in, sat down low and went in a straight line, made the turn and
went back to the apartment. And I have never seen the individual since.
Mr. DULLES. This post office box from which you were taking the mail,
was that box the one that was advertised in the paper?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. So that the number of that box was known.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; it was. This individual was obviously waiting for
me. I did not see him. Ken pointed him out to me. We expected possibly
some sort of trouble there. And Ken was walking about 6 feet to the
right of me, on another side of the post office tables that are in the
middle of the aisle. So if I got in any difficulty he would be there to
help. And he noticed this individual and pointed him out to me. And
this fellow just followed us right out, and that was that.
Mr. DULLES. As I recall, you fixed the time when you went to the mail
box as probably sometime Sunday morning.
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Can you be any more definite as to the time Sunday morning
when you were there?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am almost 100 percent sure it was between 8 and 9
o'clock.
Mr. DULLES. In the morning?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?
Senator COOPER. What age did the man seem to be?
Mr. WEISSMAN. About 60.
Senator COOPER. I have two or three other questions.
Did your organization, CUSA, ever consider violence as a means to
reaching its objectives?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This had been--I don't remember exactly. It had been
hashed over in skull sessions, so many things come up, and you talk
about it and throw it away. These things did come up over the year
or so that I was involved in it in Munich, and thrown out. No. In
schedules that we had made up, we figured probable political happenings
over a period of years, and we took into account there might be a war
for example in 1968 or 1970 or 1972, and what would happen before or
after, or who would probably be President at that time, and the type of
action America would take. But it had never gone any further than a lot
of supposition.
Senator COOPER. Did you consider the advertisements in the paper there
as possibly inciting to violence under the circumstances?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Definitely not.
Senator COOPER. Was that considered at all?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Definitely not. At least not by me. And nobody ever
mentioned it.
Senator COOPER. This group of men that you have named, of which you
were one, who formed this CUSA with objectives, both political and
business you said?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Was there any background of writings or theory of any
kind upon which you depended? Where did it come from?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Let's see. You are putting me in sort of a box but I
will answer you. We read, for example--for example, I did not know I
was a conservative until I got to Germany. I just knew how I felt. But
I never identified myself with any particular political leaning. I
thought I was a Democrat, an independent voter and independent thinker.
For example, I voted for Kennedy in 1960 and I would have voted against
him in 1964. But this is neither here nor there.
We were asked--not asked--we had a list of required reading. In
other words, if you are going to expound the conservative philosophy
we figured you should know something about it, a little bit of the
background, aside from your own personal feelings. So we read, for
example--I didn't--I never did find the time to do it--some of the
fellows read "Conscience of a Conservative" by Barry Goldwater, one or
two books that Barry Goldwater had written, and "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn
Rand, which I did not read.
Mr. JENNER. Did the others read them?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I guess Larrie read them, because he suggested these.
There were many times when I said yes--I yessed him to death, and did
as I pleased. And this is one of the cases.
Senator COOPER. That was about the extent of your reading background?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Not completely. In other words, I cannot point to any
specific volumes that I read for the specific purpose of giving me a
certain background. In other words, I am motivated personally by my own
feelings in the situation, and the particular dogma that you might read
in a book does not interest me too much.
Senator COOPER. As one of your aims, did you have the purpose of making
some money out of this movement?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Out of the movement itself, no. Out of the business, yes.
Because I think it would be foolish to go on the premise that if we
would devote ourselves a hundred percent to politics that we could make
money at it, because there are laws against it, and in order to survive
while you are in politics, you have to have a business interest,
managed by yourself part time or by others full time, that can support
you while you devote yourself to politics.
Senator COOPER. Was this business interest to be these organizations
which you were going to infiltrate and whose treasuries you might
capture?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No.
Senator COOPER. Or was it to be--you hoped to develop businesses
because of your political influence; is that it?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; to put it straight on the record, we had discussed
this, and what we would do if we came into any of the treasuries
of these organizations. We felt that you can incur a lot of legal
problems if you are caught taking funds, tax-free funds, and using it
for personal gain and so forth. I am sure there are laws against it.
Exactly which ones, I do not know. I am sure there are laws against it.
And so we felt there is nothing wrong, and it is done occasionally in
government, where occasionally you would use--you would meet someone
politically--because generally these are more affluent individuals,
people in politics. By dint of their drive they have acquired property
or moneys, et cetera. And these individuals might be willing to invest
some of their capital in some up-and-coming young businessmen, young
politicians. And we had hoped to get some money this way. Plus the
fact, by using our heads, by setting up businesses on our own that
would support us in the political goal.
Senator COOPER. Did you study methods of propaganda?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Study methods of propaganda? No; we had discussed ways
of bringing about recruitment and so forth, in the way of pamphlets,
or things of that nature, but this never got out of the talking stage
itself. As a matter of fact----
Senator COOPER. You felt the way to move into political life quickly
was to get into these extreme organizations which do use a great deal
of propaganda, and are against things?
Mr. WEISSMAN. Yes; in general, we thought these organizations because
they grew so quickly, would be relatively unorganized and easy to
infiltrate, and this proves to be quite true. They were more or less
autonomous within their own regions, and they did not have a national
director keeping tabs on everything they did.
I have something here that was made up. It is just a list. I just
happened to remember. Publicity tactics, for example--rallies,
hangings--these are effigies, I would imagine--demonstrations,
picketing, sit-downs, stickers, billboards, boycotts, lectures,
songfests, talkathons, telephone campaigns, door-to-door campaigns.
Publicity--letters, brochures, pamphlets, booklets, stationery, flags,
songs, emblems on blazers, stickers, match covers, billboards, radio,
TV, newspapers, magazines, streetcars, taxicabs. Fund-raising would be
personal solicitation, get firms to do things free for us, parties,
teas, bridges, lectures, assessments, dues, sale of books, pins,
buttons, stationery, flags, emblems, match covers, brochures, and
pamphlets. That is it.
Mr. JENNER. That was your program?
Mr. WEISSMAN. This was our advertising program; yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Some of these activities are certainly activities
carried on by political parties. But did it ever occur to you that some
of the activities which you planned, in fact which you undertook, such
as infiltration into an organization, to try to seize control of it,
and these methods that you used--do you consider that as in the regular
spirit of our system of government?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I would say this, sir.
Senator COOPER. Democratic system you spoke of?
Mr. WEISSMAN. It was a question of doing something like that, or
absolutely nothing at all, never getting off the ground. And while my
belief would say no, of course not, this is not the way you do it, this
is not the way it should be done, but it was expedient at the time
to do this. And plus the fact that you certainly could not make these
organizations any worse than they were. And as far as I felt, if we
could bring them around to our way of thinking or my way of thinking,
we could have brought them around to where they were more beneficial to
the country rather than detrimental.
Senator COOPER. That is all I want to ask.
The CHAIRMAN. I noticed on the list that you had there of techniques
was hangings. Now, you said--you added to that, I think, that that
meant hanging in effigy, you assumed. Is that right?
Mr. WEISSMAN. I am 100 percent sure, Your Honor, that that is what it
meant. In other words, this was just ways to attract attention, and the
college students are doing it all the time. It was just sort of tossing
it all in a pot and then putting it down on paper.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that not provocative to violence?
Mr. WEISSMAN. No; I think in the context that we meant it, that it was
just another way of getting possibly some publicity--like if students
in a university do not like their professor, for example, or if they
win a football game, they will hang the opposing team in effigy, or
the captain, or what have you. And it attracts a certain amount of
publicity and talk.
We had to gain recognition in order to accomplish some of the goals
that I had stated previously. And this is just another way. In this
case, you have to consider us as young men, and effigy hanging, you
know, is just part of a young idea.
The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you very much, Mr. Weissman.
You may be excused. And Mr. Flannery, thank you very much for your
cooperation.
If there are any questions you would like to ask, you may feel free to
do so now.
Mr. FLANNERY. I have nothing.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
(At this point in the hearing, Chairman Warren left the hearing room
and the witness Robert G. Klause entered.)