Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I would like to turn now to the pictures of
your husband that I asked you about earlier, when you identified the
gray camera as the one that was used in taking the pictures. And I
called your attention to Commission Exhibits Nos. 133-A and 133-B. I
now wish to ask you specifically whether you used that camera that you
saw identified for the taking of both of these pictures. And in so
doing, I wish to call your attention to the fact that there were two
different positions in the exhibits.
Mrs. OSWALD. I took both these pictures at the same time, and with the
same camera.
Mr. RANKIN. And in giving that answer, you have examined the pictures,
and you know they are different positions--that is, your husband
has the rifle in different positions and the newspaper in different
positions in the two pictures--do you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am aware of that.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, did you ever have a discussion with your
husband about when he decided that he would like to become a citizen of
the Soviet Union?
Mrs. OSWALD. We discussed this and he said that the Soviet Government
wanted him to become a Soviet citizen and furnished him the necessary
papers, but he apparently refused. But the way it appears in his diary,
of course, is quite different--in fact, the exact opposite.
Mr. RANKIN. By the exact opposite, you mean that it shows in his diary
that he was the one that wanted to be a Soviet citizen, and the Soviet
Union refused to allow that; is that right?
Mrs. OSWALD. That is correct.
Representative FORD. When did this conversation on this subject take
place, Mrs. Oswald?
Mrs. OSWALD. About 3 months after we were married.
Representative FORD. While you were living in Minsk?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. Do you remember how the discussion came up?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee wrote the American Embassy requesting return to
the United States and requesting an American passport, he told me that
it was very lucky that he hadn't become a Soviet citizen, and that his
passport was still in the American Embassy. And that if he had become a
Soviet citizen, it would have been difficult if not impossible to leave.
Before I found out about his diary, I didn't realize that the Soviet
Government had refused to grant him citizenship, because he never
talked about this, never mentioned it.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, that is the end of the questioning that
I planned to examine Mrs. Oswald about. I understand that Congressman
Ford has some.
I would like before closing to make an offer of what has been marked
now as Commission Exhibit No. 993, which is the story that Mrs. Oswald
developed in Russian that was furnished to us, and I want to inform the
Commission that it was furnished to us for the purpose of trying to
examine Mrs. Oswald the first time, and that counsel at that time and
present counsel wanted to make it very clear that they didn't want to
lose any property interest in that document. And all rights that they
might have to publish it and use it commercially and any other way that
she might have, and that it was merely furnished to the Commission for
official purposes and very strictly limited in that manner. But I would
like to offer it and the Commission may want to reserve its decision as
to whether it should be made a part of the record and published. But I
think it should at this time be offered for your consideration in that
manner.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Does counsel wish to add anything to that?
Mr. McKENZIE. Yes, Mr. Chairman; I would, if I may, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. I appreciate Mr. Rankin's remarks in connection with the
offering of Mrs. Oswald's memoirs, or manuscript of her memoirs, which,
I understand, is Commission Exhibit No. 993. The manuscript prepared
by Mrs. Oswald was heretofore voluntarily presented for the sole and
exclusive purpose of assisting the Commission in its official duties
for the Commission's use and benefit and to help the Commission in
evaluating Mrs. Oswald's testimony as well as the testimony of others
in arriving at a report setting forth its findings and conclusions to
the President and the American people.
Mrs. Oswald and her two minor children have property rights that are
private to her and to them in the publishing and use of the memoirs
set forth in her manuscript, which was written solely for her use
in writing a book for commercial purposes. She does object to the
inclusion of the manuscript in the record, or the publishing of same,
and she does not waive or relinquish or in anyway legally or otherwise
give away her proprietary rights in this regard, to the manuscript.
She respectfully requests that the Commission honor her request in
what has heretofore been deemed and what she now deems to be her
assistance to the Commission--and I will say this--that she has told
me repeatedly that she has sought to assist the Commission in every
possible and conceivable way. But in light of that, she does respect
the Commission's indulgence in not publishing this manuscript, and asks
that this only be used as it was presented for the purpose of assisting
the Commission in its official duties, in evaluating the evidence.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any suggestions as to how we might use it and
at the same time not permanently deprive the public of an opportunity
to see it?
Before you answer that, I want to say this. I am sure no member of the
Commission wants to--has any desire to in anyway interfere with the
property rights of Mrs. Oswald. She did cooperate with us in bringing
this. We feel grateful that she did do it. On the other hand, we do
want eventually to have this in the record so the public will know
that they are getting everything that the Commission has. I am just
wondering if perhaps while you are contemplating writing something on
the subject, and protecting her property rights, if we could seal this
with a notation that it was not to be opened for public view until that
has been done. And you could let us know when that day has passed.
Would that protect her rights?
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Mr. Chief Justice, I would be the last one in the
world to suggest anything either to yourself or to the Commission
insofar as the way this matter should be handled. I do have, or feel,
that the manuscript was given to the Commission, the Commission has
had more than adequate opportunity to interrogate Mrs. Oswald. She is
willing to stay here now as long as the Commission desires, and will do
so voluntarily without the issuance of a subpena or any other way.
I think through the interrogation that Mr. Rankin has conducted--I
might remark, most ably--that certainly the matters covered in the
manuscript have already been covered in direct sworn testimony. And
with that thought in mind, it was my feeling, and it is my feeling
that the Commission and its staff, through the help and assistance
of the manuscript and Mrs. Oswald, have had the benefit of all the
matters previously written down by Mrs. Oswald, and that if there
are any questions that have not been covered that are covered in the
manuscript, I am sure that counsel for the Commission could adequately
cover those questions. The manuscript was prepared by Mrs. Oswald
in the form of memoirs. And was not prepared for the use of the
Commission. And I think without the Commission's knowledge--it was
prepared beforehand. And she brought it so the Commission could have
the effect of it and the use of it. Now, if the Commission feels that
it should be finally published as part of the Commission's report, I
would certainly hope that the Commission would honor her request and
withhold the publishing of the manuscript until such time as she has
had the opportunity to conclude any negotiations which she might have
or might possibly have for the publishing of a book.
I ask this not so much for Mrs. Oswald herself, but more for her two
minor children.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, we will do at least that. We will take the matter
under consideration and having in mind her rights and our desire not
to interfere with them we will try to work out a solution that will be
satisfactory to you and to her.
Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice. And I might
also add that the Chief Justice and all members of this Commission and
its staff know full well, or at least I feel would know full well that
just as soon as this report is published and distributed to the public,
or distributed to the press, regardless of what property rights she
may have now or may have then, it will be extremely difficult for Mrs.
Oswald to protect those rights--if not impossible.
The CHAIRMAN. I would like to say, also, for the record that there is
nothing sensational or nothing of a secretive nature in the document.
It is something that, as you say, was written for publication, and we
assume that it will be some day published, probably, and that if it is
not given to the public, it will not be because there is anything of a
secret nature in there. It would only be a question of whether it could
be done consistent with the rights of the witness. And we will bear
those in mind, you may be sure.
Mr. McKENZIE. I thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
And if I may add one other thing. I have heretofore made a request on
Mr. Rankin in connection with a diary which was presented by Robert
Oswald at the time of his testimony to the Commission, that Robert
Oswald had prepared shortly after November 22, and which not only
has he furnished the diary to the Commission, but has also narrated
that diary by reading same on dictaphone tapes, and I have, in turn,
furnished it to Mr. Jenner, a member of the Commission's staff.
I have requested the Commission not to print Robert Oswald's diary
for the same reasons that I have heretofore outlined in connection
with Mrs. Oswald's manuscript. And I would hope that the Commission
could consider Robert Oswald's diary in the same light that you
would consider this manuscript. I am not saying that either have any
commercial value, but if they do I would hope that they would inure to
the benefit of Mrs. Oswald's family and the benefit of Robert Oswald's
family.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. We will consider that, also. But there are some
portions of the diary of Mr. Oswald that are in the record already
as a result of his examination, as there are things involved in this
document of Mrs. Oswald's that are in the record by question and answer.
Mr. McKENZIE. There is one other thing, and then I will close on this
particular subject. Mrs. Oswald does not have a copy of the manuscript
of her memoirs. Her former attorney, Mr. Thorne, or her former
so-called business manager, Mr. James Martin, reportedly to me has
such a copy. But at the present time she does not have a copy of this
manuscript nor do I have a copy of the manuscript.
The CHAIRMAN. You may have one immediately.
Mr. McKENZIE. Fine, sir--I would like to say at the Commission's
expense.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; of course, we will see you have one.
Mr. McKENZIE. At the time that Robert Oswald gave his testimony to
the Commission, Mr. Jenner and Mr. Liebler followed the practice of
taking originals and photostating them or Xerox copying them and giving
the originals back. Before we do close today, I would like to make a
request on the record to have all the articles that Marina has brought
up here in the way of letters and things of that sort returned to her,
with, of course, adequate copies for the Commission and its use. And I
don't know whether you have any or not.
Mr. RANKIN. You have made your request.
The CHAIRMAN. We will consider that along with the other things. Mr.
Rankin, will you continue now?
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Coulter, could you state for the record whether you
have related this colloquy to Mrs. Oswald, so that she is informed of
it?
Mr. COULTER. I gave it to her in general terms, that they were
discussing the question of the rights to her manuscript and the rights
to the originals of the various objects in her possession, which she
had made available to the Commission.
Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.
(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one other offer to make, and
I would like to offer it under Exhibit No. 994, and that would be a
translation of this document, that would present the same problems.
We have a translation that was made by Mr. Gopadze, the Secret Service
agent, who is quite familiar with the Russian language. But we earlier
today had a letter that Mrs. Oswald wrote to the Civil Liberties Union
of Dallas, and she questioned some of the translation from Russian into
English, which was not done by any of our people, of course. And we are
not so sure about Mr. Gopadze's translation. So we would like to follow
what was suggested at that time, that Mr. Coulter make a translation
of this, which we would submit to counsel for Mrs. Oswald, and Mrs.
Oswald, for them to be satisfied it is a correct translation, and then
make that translation a part of the record, subject to your deciding
later whether it should be.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, instead of referring it to Mr. Coulter, we will
refer it to Mrs. Oswald's attorney, and he can have prepared any
translation that he wishes, and then we will have it for comparison
with the other.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I thought we would save them the expense.
The CHAIRMAN. I would rather deal directly with the counsel, and then
we are not in any cross purposes. He can have it done any way he wants.
Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Chief Justice, with your kind indulgence, sir, and
the Commission's kind indulgence, Mr. Coulter's translation of this
document would be more than satisfactory with Mrs. Oswald and with
myself. And, quite frankly, the funds which she has available to her
for such a purpose are so extremely limited that it would be an extreme
hardship on her to employ an interpreter to translate it.
The CHAIRMAN. That is perfectly all right, that Mr. Coulter should do
it. I have no objection at all to Mr. Coulter. Only when we are dealing
with a client of a lawyer, we like to deal directly with him, and he
can deal with the translator if he wishes.
Mr. McKENZIE. I think we are both trying to serve the same purpose.
But Mr. Rankin and I, I think, are in full agreement on Mr. Coulter's
interpretation of this manuscript--if that is satisfactory with the
Commission.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; if it is satisfactory with you, it is satisfactory
with me. There is no question about that.
Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe in this manuscript many details are lacking which
have been developed in my testimony, because I wrote it mainly for
public consumption.
Mr. RANKIN. We understand, Mrs. Oswald. I am sure the Commissioners
all understand that the manuscript is something that was referred to
in order to inquire from you during your giving of testimony, and that
your testimony, together with the manuscript, should be considered if
there is any question, because you do not purport to cover everything
in the manuscript. Is that what you are saying?
Mrs. OSWALD. I am very ashamed that there is so much unnecessary
information in this manuscript and that it caused the interpreter so
much difficulty in translating it.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chief Justice, I then offer under Exhibit No. 994, and
I make, without repeating them, the same suggestions I did about the
Russian document, Exhibit No. 993, and ask that we follow the procedure
of getting the translation, and then make it a part of this record,
subject to the Commission's determining that it should be.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be done in that manner.
Mr. RANKIN. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, do you have some matters?
Mrs. OSWALD. I would like to know if the Commission wants me to make
some comment on any differences in substance between the manuscript
and the testimony which I have given, or between the manuscript or the
translation, whichever translation may be accepted, or both.
The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will ask the questions, if there is
anything of that nature. Now, Congressman Ford, do you have some
questions?
Representative FORD. Yes, Mr. Chief Justice, I have a few questions. In
the Soviet Union, when a marriage application is applied for, what are
the steps that you take?
Mrs. OSWALD. There are certain applications which have to be filled out
by the boy and girl.
Representative FORD. Do you have to go down together to make the
application?
Mrs. OSWALD. It is necessary for both to appear with their passports
and fill out this application.
Representative FORD. In other words, Lee Harvey Oswald had to take
his passport down to--at the time that he applied for a marriage
application?
Mrs. OSWALD. Lee Oswald did not have his passport at the time since it
was in the American Embassy. He went with his residence permission to
the office. But our marriage was entered into his American passport
after we were married and before we left the Soviet Union for the
United States.
Representative FORD. So it is not the passport in the sense that we
think of a passport, that we get to travel to a foreign country?
Mrs. OSWALD. Since most marriages are concluded between Soviet
citizens, they only present their internal passports to the marriage
license bureau. But if there is a marriage between a Soviet citizen
and a foreigner, he presents his residence permission and his foreign
passport, also, if he has one. If he doesn't have it, the residence
permission is enough.
Representative FORD. Do we have the document that he presented at the
time he applied for marriage?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. I think he had to turn that in before he
left the Soviet Union.
Mr. McKENZIE. Are you referring to his American passport?
Representative FORD. No; I am referring to the document that he
presented at the time he applied for marriage.
Mr. McKENZIE. Which would be a Russian instrument?
Representative FORD. Right.
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if it is available. I think he had to turn it
in before he left the Soviet Union.
Representative FORD. In other words, both you and Lee Harvey Oswald
signed the necessary documents for marriage?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. During your period in Minsk, following your
marriage, did you and Lee Harvey Oswald have any marital difficulties,
any problems between the two of you?
Mrs. OSWALD. We had some difficulties in connection with the fact that
I told my uncle and aunt that we were going to leave for the United
States. Lee did not want me to tell anybody that we were preparing to
leave for the United States.
Representative FORD. That was the only difficulty you had?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. Was your vacation trip to Kharkov--was that a
vacation, or did that result from any marital difficulty?
Mrs. OSWALD. My aunt invited me to Kharkov, and that is why I went. It
was not the result of any marital difficulties.
Representative FORD. You testified a few minutes ago, Mrs. Oswald, that
there was a difference in the historic diary and what Lee Oswald told
you concerning the status of his application for Soviet citizenship.
You have read the historic diary?
Mrs. OSWALD. I have only read what the FBI agents translated, those
parts of the diary which were translated into Russian by the FBI.
Representative FORD. Was that much of it or a small part of it?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was the part about his attempt at suicide.
Representative FORD. And also the part concerning the status of his
Soviet citizenship?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that that is the part which deals with his
application for Soviet citizenship. I don't know of any other parts of
the diary in which this would be set forth.
Representative FORD. You have no idea of when he wrote the historic
diary?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know when he began, but I know that after we were
married he spent the evenings writing his diary. I think that is the
reason why he didn't want me to study English while we were still in
Russia, because he didn't want me to be able to read his diary.
Representative FORD. He never read you the diary in Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Representative FORD. On the trip back to the United States, Lee Oswald
wrote on the Holland-American Line paper some additional comments. Did
you see him write this on the trip?
Mrs. OSWALD. I saw him writing this when we were in the cabin on the
ship. I thought they were just letters, though, and I didn't read them.
He didn't write these when I was around.
Representative FORD. He didn't write them while you were present?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. REDLICH. I might mention for the record that this document has
already been introduced as Commission Exhibit No. 25.
Representative FORD. If you didn't see him write it in the cabin how
did you know he wrote it?
Mrs. OSWALD. In the first place, because the paper was from the
Holland-American Line, and then I think--in the second place, because I
saw these pages covered with writing in the cabin, and I think that he
must have gone some place else on the ship, such as the library, to do
the actual writing.
Representative FORD. Have you read that which he wrote on the ship?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have not read them, because I don't understand
English.
Representative FORD. He never read it to you in Russian?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Representative FORD. At any time on the trip back, from the time you
started to leave the Soviet Union until you arrived in the United
States, did you have any trouble at the border of the Soviet Union or
any other country?
Mrs. OSWALD. We had no difficulty with the authorities of any kind
on any border. I think that my husband may have had some financial
difficulties in New York, when he arrived.
Representative FORD. You left the Soviet Union by what means, now?
Mrs. OSWALD. Train and boat.
Representative FORD. You went from the Soviet Union to Poland by train?
Mrs. OSWALD. We took a train from Moscow to Amsterdam, through Poland
and Germany.
Representative FORD. You had no difficulty going into Poland, going
through Germany?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Representative FORD. Or into Holland?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. And there were no difficulties in our entering the
United States, either.
Representative FORD. When you were living at Elsbeth Street, did you
and Lee have any domestic trouble?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. Could you relate how frequently and how serious
they were?
Mrs. OSWALD. The first difficulty we had was at Elsbeth Street when I
told the landlady that I was from Russia. My husband had told her that
I was from Czechoslovakia, and he became very angry with me for telling
her I was from Russia, and said that I talked too much.
Representative FORD. That was the first incident?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. Were there others?
Mrs. OSWALD. Then we had difficulties because I had a number of Russian
friends in Elsbeth Street, around there, in Dallas, and he was jealous
of me, and didn't want me to see them.
Representative FORD. During this time, did he physically abuse you? Did
he hit you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt reprimand Lee for his
abuse to you?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know. He didn't support this. He didn't favor this
conduct of my husband's. But I don't think he ever said anything to him
about it, or told him that he shouldn't do it.
Representative FORD. Mr. De Mohrenschildt didn't say anything to Lee
Oswald in your presence about his abuse towards you?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; not in my presence.
Representative FORD. Did Mr. De Mohrenschildt take you to Mellers, was
it?
Mrs. OSWALD. Anna Meller--no; he did not.
Representative FORD. Mr. De Mohrenschildt did not take you there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; we had a quarrel, and I took the child and took a
taxi, and went by myself there.
Representative FORD. Did you have money to pay for a taxi?
Mrs. OSWALD. Anna Meller paid for the taxi.
Representative FORD. When you got to Anna Meller's?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Representative FORD. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, do you have any questions?
Mr. DULLES. A couple, Mr. Chief Justice.
You have described this morning briefly the manner of your life in
Minsk. I wonder if you would also now discuss that in the United
States. What did you do with your leisure time, how did Oswald handle
his leisure time when he wasn't working?