Mr. DULLES. About $500, isn't it, roughly--10 to 1 in those days?
Mr. SNYDER. Wait a minute; yes.
Mr. DULLES. It was a considerable sum.
Representative FORD. It would be more than a month's salary, then.
Mr. SNYDER. Yes; an average month's salary at the time was about 750
rubles, something around there.
Mr. DULLES. I think the legal rate was 20 cents, but the sort of going
rate was around 10, I think. I think you could buy tourist rubles
around 10, as I recall--10 to the dollar. The legal rate, I think, was
5 to the dollar.
Mr. SNYDER. No; I think the legal rate was 10 to a dollar, Mr. Dulles.
Mr. CHAYES. In the same letter that states the date, which we supplied
to the Commission at the Commission's request, it states that the legal
rate was 4 to 1 until January 1961. But that was the official rate.
Mr. DULLES. I understand.
Mr. SNYDER. There were different rates. The official rate was not the
rate which was used for all things. For instance, we got 10 to 1 for
our rubles. The so-called official rate was used, for instance, in
clearing foreign trade accounts and this sort of thing.
Representative FORD. Can you tell us your impression of this so-called
Red Cross in the Soviet Union?
Mr. SNYDER. Well, again, I cannot speak of--about the Soviet Red Cross
with any great personal knowledge. It is not a Red Cross organization
in quite the sense in which we know it. It is clearly an organ of the
State in a totalitarian state, which means it is not an independent
organization, and its policies flow from the policy of the state, and
of the central committee.
I don't think that the Soviet Red Cross conducts public fund-raising
campaigns, for instance, in the way ours does.
It also is not an organization to which an individual might turn
routinely for assistance as he might in our society.
Since the Soviet State does not admit that there is need in the Soviet
Union, that there can be poverty or difficulty for which there are not
organizations already in existence who are fully competent to deal with
such problems, since they don't admit this kind of a situation--they
also do not admit of public welfare organs in a sense such as the Red
Cross.
Representative FORD. Do you know of any other cases during your period
of service there where there were payments by this organization to
American citizens, or Americans, those who had given up or tried to
give up or failed to give up their citizenship?
Mr. SNYDER. No, sir; as a matter of fact, the only way in which the
Soviet Red Cross impinged upon my experience in Moscow was that they
were the organ for handling whereabouts inquiries of persons living in
the Soviet Union. If an American citizen wrote to the Embassy asking
our assistance in locating a relative in the Soviet Union, this inquiry
would go from us to the Soviet Red Cross, who was charged under the
Soviet system of things with actually checking into it and letting us
know if they felt that was in their interest. This was the only way in
which the Soviet Red Cross impinged upon us.
I do recall on a few occasions advising persons who had come into the
Embassy in one way or another and who were in dire need that they go to
the Soviet Red Cross.
But the reaction of such persons indicated to me that they felt the
Soviet Red Cross was not the place to go.
Mr. COLEMAN. Mr. Snyder, had you ever heard, while you were in the
Embassy in Moscow, the secret police referred to as the Red Cross?
Mr. SNYDER. No.
Mr. COLEMAN. You never heard the MVD, for example, referred to in that
way?
Mr. SNYDER. No; to my knowledge--I mean there is an organization called
the Soviet Red Cross, which carries on at least in the international
sphere some of the normal activities of international Red Cross
organizations.
The big point of departure is that they on the one hand are not
independent organizations as they are in free societies, but they are
an organ of the state. And, secondly, I do not think they have the
same role internally that our Red Cross organizations do.
Mr. DULLES. Have you heard of it being used in other instances for what
might be called extraneous payments--that is, payments not related to
Red Cross work?
Mr. SNYDER. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Is there a policy that you were familiar with, as
far as the Soviet Union was concerned, for permitting a person to apply
for and be given Soviet citizenship?
Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes; there is a well-defined way of acquiring Soviet
citizenship under Soviet law.
Representative FORD. Was Oswald familiar with that, as you could tell
from your conversation with him?
Mr. SNYDER. Well, he obviously was familiar with what one does. That
is, he had made application to the Supreme Soviet, which is what one
does.
Representative FORD. Did he tell you that?
Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes.
Representative FORD. He did?
Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir; this is not something which is common knowledge.
One would have to have inquired and found out, and had someone show you
or give you the proper form on which to make application, and tell you
where to address it, and this sort of thing.
Representative FORD. What did he tell you had happened when he did that?
Mr. SNYDER. All he said was that he had made application.
Representative FORD. He didn't indicate the application had been
processed and approved?
Mr. SNYDER. No; I cannot recall what our conversation was on that
score. It was quite clear that he had not received Soviet citizenship.
But, also, I would not have expected him to receive it that early in
the game. I mean, for one thing the Supreme Soviet does not act on
these things on a continuing basis, but acts upon them periodically.
Representative FORD. En masse, so to speak?
Mr. SNYDER. That is right. It has them on its calendar. So many times a
year it acts on petitions for Soviet citizenship, presumably.
Presumably before it is sent to the Supreme Soviet with a favorable
recommendation by the various Government organs, a thorough
investigation is made by MVD and other organs, and various officials
presumably at different levels have got to stick their necks out and
recommend he be accepted--that sort of thing.
Representative FORD. If you had known that Oswald was in Minsk, what
would your reaction have been?
Mr. SNYDER. Serves him right.
Representative FORD. Why do you say that?
Mr. SNYDER. You have never been in Minsk.
Well, in the first place, my own feeling is that there is no better
medicine for someone who imagines he likes the Soviet Union than to
live there awhile.
Representative FORD. In Minsk?
Mr. SNYDER. Any place.
Representative FORD. I am more particularly interested in Minsk.
Mr. SNYDER. But provincial towns in the Soviet Union are a very large
step below the capital, and the capital, believe me, is a fairly
good-sized step down from any American populated place.
But the difference between large cities and minor cities, and between
minor cities and villages, is a tremendous step backward in time. And
to live in Minsk, or any other provincial city in the Soviet Union, is
a pretty grim experience to someone who has lived in our society--not
necessarily American, but simply in western society. It might be just
the same if he lived in Denmark, or some place. I mean to land up in
Minsk, working in a grubby little factory is quite a comedown.
Representative FORD. Have you ever been in Minsk?
Mr. SNYDER. I spent about an hour walking around Minsk, between trains,
one time.
Representative FORD. Is there anything significant about him being sent
to Minsk, as far as you are concerned?
Mr. SNYDER. No, no; the only pattern that I would discern is that it is
in all cases to my knowledge--all cases of which I have had knowledge,
the invariable pattern of the Soviets is to send defectors somewhere
outside of the capital city--to settle them in some city other than
Moscow. There have been some minor exceptions to this.
What is the name--the British defector, and the two foreign office men
Burgess and McLean. McLean lives or did live, until his death, just on
the outskirts of Moscow.
Mr. DULLES. McLean is still alive.
Mr. SNYDER. Pardon me--Burgess. Is Burgess the one married to an
American?
Mr. DULLES. Philby is married to an American.
Mr. SNYDER. One of the two, Burgess or McLean, is married to an
American.
Mr. DULLES. McLean is.
Mr. SNYDER. I had an interview with McLean's mother-in-law at the
Embassy. At any rate, this was one exception.
Representative FORD. It has been alleged that in Minsk there are
certain training schools for foreigners, or possibly for citizens of
the Soviet Union. Are you at all familiar with that? Is there any
information you have on it?
Mr. SNYDER. No; I have not, Mr. Ford.
Representative FORD. Did you ever contact any Soviet officials about
Oswald at the time of this first interview?
Mr. SNYDER. No.
Representative FORD. Is that unusual or is that usual?
Mr. SNYDER. It is usual.
Representative FORD. In other words, you, in your capacity, would not
normally contact a Soviet official about someone such as Oswald?
Mr. SNYDER. That is right; yes, sir. In other words, there is nothing
at that stage of the game which--for which I would have any reason to
go to the Soviet authorities.
Representative FORD. Even the fact that he had a visa 5 days overdue?
Mr. SNYDER. Well, of course, I am already aware in a sense and
am acting under my awareness that he is living under controlled
circumstances. He is not simply living in a hotel and nobody knows
about it. That he is in contact with Soviet authorities, and is there
with their knowledge and consent. So that----
Representative FORD. It is implied consent, even though it may not be
official as far as the documents are concerned?
Mr. SNYDER. Well, actually, the document itself is quite eloquent on
this subject, I think. There is the very negative fact that his visa is
5 days overdue, and he is still there--that speaks pretty loudly for
the fact that he is living there without a valid visa, at least without
a valid visa in his passport, with the knowledge and consent of the
Soviet authorities. It could hardly be otherwise.
Representative FORD. Mr. Dulles, we have a quorum call over on the
floor of the House. I will have to leave. Will you take over as
Chairman? I will be back shortly.
Mr. DULLES. Very gladly. I have one or two questions.
(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. DULLES. Is there any question as to whether a minor can renounce
his nationality?