(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 937 for
identification.)
Mr. SNYDER. This communication would have been received after my
departure from Moscow.
Mr. COLEMAN. You never saw that communication?
Mr. SNYDER. No, sir.
Mr. COLEMAN. That communication does indicate, doesn't it, that the
State Department was saying, that based upon its records, that Oswald
had not expatriated himself, or was still technically an American
citizen?
Mr. SNYDER. Yes; the one operative sentence there in the communications
states, "In any event in the absence of evidence showing that Mr.
Oswald had definitely lost United States citizenship he apparently
maintains that technical status."
Mr. COLEMAN. But you say you never saw that document?
Mr. SNYDER. No; this arrived after I departed from the post.
Mr. COLEMAN. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 939, the State
Department operations memorandum dated August 18, 1961, and ask you if
you saw it?
Mr. SNYDER. No; it arrived after I left.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 939 for
identification.)
Mr. COLEMAN. On July 8 and July 10, when Oswald was at the Embassy, did
you see his wife, Marina?
Mr. SNYDER. Not to the best of my knowledge, Mr. Coleman.
Mr. COLEMAN. Did you have any knowledge that she was also in Moscow?
Mr. SNYDER. I don't really know. I can't say whether at that time I had
knowledge that she was or not. I don't ever recall having seen her, no.
Mr. COLEMAN. When you spoke to Oswald on the 8th or on the 10th of
July, did he indicate that his wife was in Moscow?
Mr. SNYDER. I am sorry, I don't know.
Mr. COLEMAN. In connection with the various decisions you have made in
this matter, did you consult with anyone?
Mr. SNYDER. I think perhaps the word "consult" isn't quite the word. I
kept my superiors informed of what I was doing, and, of course, they
did see my communications, and in most cases countersigned them before
they went out. But in the sense of asking their opinion of what I ought
to do, I don't think so.
Mr. COLEMAN. Did anyone instruct you as to what particular decision you
should make in connection with any requests made by Mr. Oswald?
Mr. SNYDER. No; this was my responsibility, really. There was no one
who was presumed to know more about it at the post than I did. I mean
in the sense that I was the officer in charge of that activity.
Mr. COLEMAN. There is one other question, sir.
We have some information that Oswald stated that in 1959, when he
was in the hospital, that he was in the same ward with an elderly
American. Do you have any idea who the elderly American could have been?
Mr. SNYDER. No; I am afraid not.
Mr. COLEMAN. Would there be any record in the Embassy which would
indicate what Americans were in Moscow at that time, and whether there
was an elderly American who had been hospitalized?
Mr. SNYDER. We kept an informal file of all information relating to the
presence of Americans any place in the Soviet Union.
In other words, any time we had a report of any kind, of any level of
credibility, we kept some kind of a record. It was known that there
were Americans in the Soviet Union under various circumstances against
their own will, or persons who might be Americans, or might have had a
claim to American citizenship, who might have been dual nationals--one
doesn't know. But we would get reports occasionally from a state camp,
a labor camp, of a sighting of an American, or a person who claimed to
be an American. This sort of thing.
Mr. COLEMAN. Would that information be in a special file in the
Embassy, or would it be spread throughout various files?
Mr. SNYDER. No; it was in, as I recall, a separate informal listing. In
other words, they were also reported to the Department of State. The
chances are that the Department also maintained----
Mr. COLEMAN. Have you any idea what that file might be called, if we
were going to ask for it by name--what name we would give so that the
people in Moscow would know what we are trying to take a look at?
Mr. SNYDER. No; I don't. But it would most likely have been under
"Welfare and Whereabouts." The files in Moscow, I might say, the
classified files are not that extensive. I mean they were one-drawer
files for the most part that we officers worked on ourselves,
physically.
Mr. COLEMAN. When Oswald came in to see you in 1959, did you have any
feeling that somebody was coaching him, or had instructed him what to
say or do?
Mr. SNYDER. Well, I think I am accurate in saying at that time I
assumed he had been in contact with some level of Soviet representative
or official and had discussed his intended actions, and perhaps had had
some advice from them as to what to do or how to approach things--in
the sense that his words were somebody else's, I don't think I could
say, because he gave me the impression, the times I saw him, of an
intelligent person who spoke in a manner, and on a level, which seemed
to befit his apparent level of intelligence.
However, he did say in my first interview with him either "I have been
told what you are going to tell me," or "I am very familiar with the
arguments you are going to use on me," or words to this effect, which
would be the most direct evidence, shall we say, that he had discussed
what he intended to say, and how he intended to handle himself, before
he came in to me.
But, in any event, I think it is a foregone conclusion, from what I
know of the procedures and things like this, that he was in contact
with a Soviet official, he was under somebody's charge in a sense
during the time he was there. This was certainly the pattern in the
Petrulli case. My whole knowledge of the system and the way it works,
the whole internal consistency of it, would lead me to believe that
this were the case, unless I had firm evidence to believe otherwise.
Mr. COLEMAN. How about when he reappeared on July 8 and 10, 1961? Did
you feel he was being coached at that time in connection with his
attempt to get his passport returned to him?
Mr. SNYDER. No; I don't have any direct evidence that he was coached,
I think, in the terms in which you mean. For one thing, his manner of
speech and his general approach to the degree that I recall it was,
well, less stiff, less formal, and certainly less haughty than it
had been on the first occasion. He also didn't use with me the kind
of Marxist sloganeering which I got from him on the first interview,
which also, I think, is in a sense an evidence of his having been well
briefed on his talk with me.
The second time around this was pretty much absent from his
conversation.
Mr. COLEMAN. You say you felt he was well briefed on his first
conversation with you in 1959, but not in connection with his second?
Mr. SNYDER. Well, again, I cannot say that he was well briefed. I just
don't know. But I say, it seemed to me evident at the time that he had
discussed with, presumably, a Soviet person or persons what he intended
to do at the Embassy, and perhaps the line he should take at the
Embassy.
Mr. COLEMAN. Well, how do you feel or do you think there is any special
significance to the way he entered the Soviet Union from Helsinki in
October of 1959?
Mr. SNYDER. Well, there is some significance perhaps, but not a great
amount of significance. As most travelers, most tourist travelers
come into the Soviet Union on a prearranged tour--many do come
from Helsinki. Many of them do not come to Moscow. They go only to
Leningrad, spend a day or two, and go back again across the border.
It is the shortest entry onto Soviet territory from non-Communist
territory.
It was at least one other case, when I was in Moscow, of a person--that
is with possible defecting intent, who came into the Soviet Union
through Helsinki, and who got his visa apparently directly at the
Soviet Embassy, which I think is what Oswald did, although I cannot
be sure. But it was my impression at the time that he did not have a
prepared tourist tour sort of thing. But I cannot be sure on this point.
Mr. COLEMAN. Do you draw any significance from the fact that he was
able to come from Minsk into Moscow on July 8, apparently without any
difficulty?
Mr. SNYDER. No; I cannot say that he came without any difficulty. He
may have had considerable difficulty. It was my feeling that he would
have some difficulty in coming to Moscow.
Representative FORD. Did you make any inquiry about that? Did that
rouse your curiosity, that he was able to come?
Mr. SNYDER. No; because I expected that he would be able to come, Mr.
Ford. As a matter of fact, the letter which I wrote to him in reply to
the first letter to me which I received was very carefully worded with
this in mind. It was written, for one thing, partly addressed to the
Soviet authorities who would read it. And partly to Oswald--which could
be used by him in a sense should he run up against real difficulties in
getting permission to come to Moscow.
At any rate, I think it was my feeling at the time that he probably
could come to the Embassy, although it might cost him considerable
difficulty. But I saw no reason to spare him this difficulty.
Mr. COLEMAN. Is there any other information you have which you think
the Commission would be interested in in connection with its work and
its investigation?
Mr. SNYDER. I can't really--well, let me say that I don't know of any
other facts pertinent to the investigation, or pertinent to Oswald in
any way which I have not presented, at least not knowingly.
There may well be--there is much that I could elaborate on, on what I
have said, relating to Oswald. There are a good deal of small things
which perhaps under further questioning might be elicited.
But I am not aware of anything which I have not mentioned and which is
in any way pertinent, and which ought to be mentioned.
There are other observations about Oswald and this sort of thing I
suppose I could elaborate on to some extent.
Representative FORD. Earlier in the interrogation, Mr. Coleman had you
outline what transpired the day that Oswald walked into the Embassy, in
the first instance?
Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. The Commission has in the various papers picked
up following Oswald's apprehension and murder, what purports to be his
observations or his diary during his stay in the Soviet Union. Have you
read any of those?
Mr. SNYDER. No, sir.
Representative FORD. He describes in one of these documents his
experience that day he came into the Embassy. Would you in some detail
relate that again, as you understand what transpired? What time of day
it was, where you were, in what office, and so forth. Who was with you,
if anybody.
Mr. SNYDER. I might begin, I think, as I began originally, by stating
that I don't recall the time of day. But from my knowledge of the facts
of the case, and the fact that I told him the Embassy was closed and so
forth, it had to have been either a Wednesday or a Saturday afternoon,
if not a Sunday. I am told that the date on which he came actually was
a Saturday, so I presume it was a Saturday afternoon that he came.
Representative FORD. Don't spare of the detail, because it would be
interesting to get your version and his as he purportedly related it in
a document of his own subsequently.
Mr. SNYDER. I am not sure whether he was brought in to me or whether
I went out and met him at the door and brought him in. I don't recall
whether one of my secretaries might have been on duty that afternoon.
Normally, she would not have been.
I believe that Mr. McVickar was working in the office adjoining mine.
The offices in Moscow are quite small and the door between our offices
is usually open. And I think that Mr. McVickar told me he was in the
next office.
There was no one in the office with me at the time I saw him.
Oswald was well dressed and very neat appearing when he came in. I
don't recall whether he was wearing a suit and shirt and tie. But at
any rate, his appearance impressed me at the time. And I recall that he
looked very presentable.
He was very curt, very proper. At no time did he insult me or anything
of that sort personally. He was just proper, but extremely curt.
Representative FORD. Did he just walk in the door and you were seated
at your desk? What was the way in which you first spoke to one another?
Mr. SNYDER. I don't recall whether he was ushered into my office by the
secretary or one of the employees, or whether I was told that there was
someone waiting for me outside, and I went and got him. It is unlikely
that he walked into the offices, because he would have had to walk
through two other offices to get to mine.
Well, he stated--he gave me a written statement, which is in the
record, almost immediately upon his arrival, I believe.
Representative FORD. That is Commission Exhibit No. 913.
Mr. SNYDER. He stated in effect that he had come to the Soviet Union
to live in the Soviet Union, that he desired to renounce his American
citizenship, though I don't think he used the word "renounce"--I think
he used another word--but that he desired to renounce his American
citizenship. That his allegiance was to the Soviet Union.
I think initially this was pretty much what his statement was. And
would I please do what was necessary to get this over with.
Well, during this period of the interview, as far as I recall, he was
standing. And he may have seated himself some time later in it. But I
think for the initial part of the interview, he remained standing and
declined to take a seat.
When I began to question him, he then rejoined with words to the
effect, "I know what" or "I have been told what you are going to ask
me, you are going to try to talk me out of this, and don't waste your
time, please let's get on with the business."
I then asked him--I continued to probe and see where I could find a
chink in his armor some place.
And I think that the initial chink which I found was regarding his
relatives and place of residence in the United States.
I had his passport. I don't recall whether he handed it to me, though
he probably did, or whether I asked him for it.
I noted that on the inside of the cover page of his passport his home
address had been crossed out.
When I asked him where he lived, he declined to tell me. When I asked
him about his relatives--I had noted from his passport that he was 20
years old. When I asked him about his relatives, he also said this was
none of my business, and would I please get on with the business.
Well, I told him at that time, or fairly early in the interview, having
found this kind of chink I could work on, I told him that I would have
to know certainly where he lived in the United States in order to do
anything else with his case.
At that stage, he kind of hemmed and hawed a bit and said--well, I live
at so and so. And from there on it opened the crack a little bit, and I
found his mother also lived at that--that this was the address of his
mother, and probing further I found out about his Marine background,
and that he had been recently discharged.
I questioned him a bit about where he had applied for his passport, and
how he had come to the Soviet Union, and had he gone home to see his
mother, and things of this sort.
Some of these questions he answered, and some he didn't. However, he
did not seem quite, as I recall--quite so adamant about refusing this
kind of question as he did about questions closer to the bone. That
is, what knowledge do you have of Marxism, or where did you first come
across this, or did you meet someone in the Marines?
Representative FORD. Did you go into those questions in your probing
with him?
Mr. SNYDER. Oh, yes; this sort of question he parried. I won't say he
parried them--he simply refused to answer them. The only thing which he
did say in the interview was "I am a Marxist." And I recall telling him
then in a jocular vein, which evoked no response, that he was going to
be a very lonesome man in the Soviet Union.
But I found at that point, and from there on, that for all I could
determine he was completely humorless. And this was my impression of
him on the other occasions on which I saw him. He was intense and
humorless.
Representative FORD. What prompted the breakup of the interview, or the
meeting?
Mr. SNYDER. Well, the interview finally broke up when I couldn't get
any more out of him.
Representative FORD. Was he satisfied or dissatisfied with the result
of his conference with you?
Mr. SNYDER. I think he was dissatisfied, if anything. I think he had
come in there to renounce his citizenship, and had found himself
thwarted. It is quite possible, though, this is reading into it
things which were not necessarily evident to me at the time. It is
quite possible that this was to be his big moment on the stage of
history as far as he was concerned. He may have contemplated this for
some time, as he said--and thus my refusal at that time to complete
his renunciation may have been a hurdle which he had been totally
unprepared for.
Representative FORD. Did he demand at any time that this was a right he
had to renounce his citizenship, and demand why you would not permit
him to proceed?
Mr. SNYDER. Well, I cannot really reconstruct our conversations on that
line. But I clearly pointed out to him his right. And he did decline,
as I recall, to have me read the law to him. He said he was familiar
with it, or something, so that I need not read the law to him. So I
pointed out, I believe, at that time he had a right, as any citizen has
a right to give up his citizenship if he so desires.
That other consideration is that the consul has a certain obligation
towards the individual, and also towards his family, to see that a
person--or that the consul at least does not aid and encourage an
individual, and particularly a 20-year-old individual, to commit an
irrevocable act on the spur of the moment or without adequate thought.
But I told him in any event that the consulate was closed that
afternoon, that I had no secretary there to prepare the papers, and
that if he would come back during normal business hours I would, of
course, go through with it.
So I don't think that he left the room happy--if I can use that
term--in his attitude towards me.
I recall probing a bit on the subject of the formation of his attitudes
towards Marxism. I developed at this time the impression that he really
had no knowledgeable background at all of Marxism. I think I asked him
if he could tell me a little bit about the theory of labor value, or
something like that, and he hadn't the faintest notion of what I was
talking about--I mean something basic to Marxism. And I probed around a
bit as to the sources of his attitudes. And I think the only thing he
told me at the time was that he had been doing some reading, and that
is about as far as I got. On that subject, he simply would not be drawn
out.
Representative FORD. Did you ask him anything about his knowledge of
the Russian language? Did he volunteer anything?
Mr. SNYDER. Yes; I did ask him a bit about that. He said he had been
studying Russian. And, again, I had the impression--I don't recall--I
may have spoken some Russian to him--but I at least formed the
impression that he did not know very much Russian. I don't think he
could have gotten along on his own in Russian society. I don't think he
could have done more than buy a piece of bread, maybe.
Representative FORD. Did he converse with any other member of the staff
at the Embassy, to your knowledge, during the time of this first visit?
Mr. SNYDER. No, no; at this time he definitely did not. And I don't
think that he did during the time I was there--unless it was simply a
passing word with the receptionist, or something of this sort.
But as far as I know, he had no knowledgeable conversation with anyone
there.
Actually, there were only--well, when he first came there were only two
officers, McVickar and myself, and at the time I left, three officers,
with whom he might have talked. And it is inconceivable that either of
the other two officers would have talked to him, knowing my interest in
the case, or if I were not there somebody would have done so without
making a memo for the file and for me of the conversation.
Representative FORD. In retrospect, assuming the tragic events that
did transpire last year didn't take place, and this circumstance was
presented to you again in the Embassy in Moscow, would you handle the
case any differently?
Mr. SNYDER. No; I don't think so, Mr. Ford. You mean in terms of would
I have taken his renunciation? No; I think not.
Representative FORD. In other words, you would have put him off, or
stalled him off, in this first interview, make him come back again?
Mr. SNYDER. Yes; I would have.
(At this point, Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)
Mr. SNYDER. Particularly, since he was a minor. Normally, it would have
been, I think, my practice to do this in any event, though. Obviously
no two cases are alike, and the consul must decide. But particularly
in the case of a minor, I could not imagine myself writing out the
renunciation form and having him sign it, on the spot, without making
him leave my office and come back at some other time, even if it is
only a few hours intervening.
Representative FORD. In one of the despatches I believe you sent to
Washington, you indicated that you had informed the press--I don't
recall what exhibit that is.