Mr. RANKIN. 17th of what month?
Mr. WADE. Of February.
Maybe we started on the 10th, because they ended on the 14th, 17th to
the 14th, I would say this was around the 6th of March roughly, a day
or two either way.
I sat down there to talk to Dean and Sorrels because we was going to
put--and Sorrels showed me a copy of his report made on that incident
which I didn't keep a copy but I am sure you all have a copy of it or
it will be available to you.
I read it over, and essentially from what Dean said, and him were the
same with other than the, I think the only variance was the part which
was strong testimony where Dean said that Ruby said, "The first time I
thought of killing him was Friday night or thought about killing him
was Friday night in the lineup."
Mr. RANKIN. Sorrels didn't have that in his statement, did he?
Mr. WADE. He didn't have that in his statement, and I, to go back a
little bit, I asked Sorrels how he got up in the jail and he said he
didn't know, and he said he didn't actually know Dean there sitting in
my office.
I think he finally decided Dean was the one but he didn't know him. I
think it is pretty obvious that Dean, because they went in an unusual
entrance to the jail from the third floor, from the chief's office, and
he says there are two guards standing on each side of him which none of
the others corroborate, unless they are talking about jail guards in
the building, but there was no police in uniform supposed to be up on
that floor but Sorrels said that he saw two police guards on each side
of him.
But I asked Sorrels, I said, "How can you account for it?" I had
already talked to Dean. I said, "I am getting ready to put him on the
stand."
I said, "How are you going to--what are you going to say if you go on
the stand on this?"
He said, "Well, I called my office in Washington and they wanted me
to find out two things: One, whether there was any connection between
Oswald and Ruby from Ruby, and two, whether Ruby had any confederates
or co-conspirators."
He said, "Those were the two things I went to find out and I dwelled on
those entirely."
He said, "These other officers were there and when I left they were
still questioning," and he said, "I couldn't say whether that happened,
I don't remember hearing it, I just can't say that I heard it," and so
the defense lawyers talked to Sorrels that night about testifying and
didn't use him.
Of course, I thought probably they were going to use him on this one
thing, but there were so many other things in the statement that were
the same as what Dean has testified to about, something about being a
hero, Jew hero, or something in the statement, which Sorrels had that
in his statement.
He had practically everything in the statement, but this is one thing
that he didn't have in there, as I recall.
I couldn't find it and asked him about it and he said he couldn't say
it. He said there were a lot of things in there but he was interested
in knowing only two things.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you examine Dean's statement in regard to this matter?
Mr. WADE. Well, I read it there that day. It is a very short one, you
know. Of course, there is more than one statement.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes; did you look at his prior statements at that time?
Mr. WADE. I think I had all of his statements. He was in charge
of security in the basement. All statements, this all came out on
cross-examination, dealt entirely with the matter of security, what was
done to secure the basement.
Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything in regard to this premeditation in the
prior statement?
Mr. WADE. I don't think he did, and I don't think he actually said
anything about how Ruby got in in that prior statement. I may be wrong,
I don't remember even going into the conversation with Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN. What did Dean tell you at the time that you asked him about
the later statement?
Mr. WADE. He told me that he had been asked to submit a report dealing
with the security of the basement, and that that first report was the
security problem.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that, the security?
Mr. WADE. Well, he said that, he told me, that when he heard the shot
that he thought a policeman had shot him because he didn't think there
was anybody else in the basement. He said he thought a policeman had
shot him, just got mad and the cop shot him for killing Officer Tippit.
I don't know whether that was in the statement or not but he told me
that. I actually read that, that security, we were not too interested
in that because from our point of view, because there is no question
the security wasn't good. Something happened somewhere.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn from Dean how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr. WADE. I learned the way he told him he got in.
Mr. RANKIN. How was that?
Mr. WADE. On walking in on Main Street, the ramp down on Main Street.
And I was under the impression he told a lot of other people that. But
if he had been in that basement a long time it would have helped us a
lot to know it. It would have shown more premeditation, but I don't
think he actually had been in long from what I know about the case.
But Ruby told Dean in his statement that he got in by going to the
Western Union and walking there and the cop was helping a car go
out into it. I don't know whether that is Dean, that is somebody's
statement, that he went in that ramp and was there maybe a minute or
two before they brought him out.
Mr. RANKIN. Did Dean tell you why he left out of his prior statements
the statement about premeditation or prior thinking about killing
Oswald?
Mr. WADE. Well, he was cross-examined about that, and told me also
that he wasn't asked about it. That that wasn't part of what his
report concerned. I mean, you have to keep in mind Dean is a uniformed
officer. He is sergeant, had nothing to do with the investigation of
the crime. He just happened to be the one who was sent up there to
show Sorrels how to get in the jail and out, you know. He wasn't an
investigative officer.
Now, McMillon and Archer are detectives, you know, but he is not. He is
a uniformed man.
Mr. RANKIN. What did McMillon tell you about his statement?
Mr. WADE. He just told me what his testimony was. I didn't actually
talk to him over 30 minutes, I don't guess, during the noon hour and
I was talking to all of them. I had the various statements he made,
some of what he said was in the statements and some wasn't, so I don't
remember--but the same story was where he was and what he was supposed
to do and one dealt with security and the other dealt with statement
that he had made. Dean and McMillon and any of them didn't think these
statements were admissible while he was in the jail.
Mr. RANKIN. Did McMillon make a statement about premeditation?
Mr. WADE. He had in his statement that he meant to shoot three times,
which was premeditation, but I don't think he thought about it Friday
night.
Mr. RANKIN. What about Archer, did he have anything in his statement
about Friday night in his prior statements?
Mr. WADE. No, sir; I don't think he did. He did have about the
intending to shoot three times.
Mr. RANKIN. When Dean was telling you about this statement about
planning to shoot Oswald on Friday night, was he telling you that Ruby
had told him that?
Mr. WADE. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. He didn't tell that to Sorrels?
Mr. WADE. I think he said he told it to both of them. I think that the
question on that, he said when he saw the snarl on his face he first
thought about killing him. Now the snarl on his face could have been
Friday night or Saturday night.
Mr. DULLES. That is on Oswald's face?
Mr. WADE. On Oswald's face.
And I think that, I am not sure of this, but I think that Sorrels
remembers saying something about the snarl on his face. But I think the
question was whether they were talking before the time of the shooting
of Oswald or whether they was talking about Friday night and it is
Dean's impression that when he saw the snarl on his face is when he
first thought about killing him.
I don't think he ever testified he planned to kill him or anything. I
think he said that is the first time he thought about killing him.
Mr. RANKIN. What I wanted to get clear for the Commission was whether
Ruby was telling this in answer to questions from Dean or in answer to
questions from Sorrels?
Mr. WADE. I think largely Sorrels. I think at the end Dean asked him
one or two questions, mostly about how he got in, I think. I think that
is what Dean was asking him about. But I think actually that this came
out in the conversation while Sorrels was at least taking the lead in
questioning him.
And I think, my recollection is at the end, as Sorrels got through and
walked on over to the elevator, he asked him how he got in the jail or
something on that score rather than on this subject.
Now, Dean is under the impression that all this came out while Sorrels
was there. But I don't think Sorrels, at least, didn't have it in his
notes and I don't think he would say it didn't happen but he didn't
remember it, you know.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any further investigation of this addition or
change in the statements of Dean and these other people?
Mr. WADE. I don't think there is any change in the statement. I think
you are asking a kind of a misleading question.
I think that first report dealt entirely with the security in the
basement of the thing.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't think that purported to relate what the
conversation was?
Mr. WADE. Up in the jail, I don't think, you may have it there, and I
may be wrong. I never questioned him any more because like I said from
the time of the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald I thought that Friday
night was the time, in my own mind, that is what I thought, he had
thought about killing him. I don't say he said he would go arm himself,
but in my own mind I had that feeling all along and I thought it was
the first time he had thought about it, that is where I discounted
all the other theories there was a connection between them because I
saw him there and talked to him, and saw his excited demeanor, and so
you asked me did I question him any more, he finally told me, what I
actually thought were the facts and I do now incidentally.
Mr. RANKIN. You have already testified that you thought it was Jack
Ruby before you even knew the name.
Mr. WADE. Well, you may--I may have stressed a little saying thought.
When I was driving down there they said Dallas businessman kills him,
without his name.
But in my own mind I said it must have been that Jack Ruby that was
down there the night before. I mean I was just talking to myself, there
wasn't nobody there. But like I say, one of those things, I might
be more truthful to say it ran through my mind rather than to say I
thought.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't say that to your wife?
Mr. WADE. I didn't say it to a soul. I went down there alone. I took
her home. We don't live four or five blocks and I drove downtown
myself, and it entered my mind and I will say when they announced
it I wasn't too surprised. I mean I had or thought about him as a
possibility.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you get any assistance from the FBI, Secret
Service, and other agencies in the handling of these cases?
Mr. WADE. Practically none. I never have seen the Secret Service
file. This Sorrels is the only one I talked with and I saw his report
although I never did get a copy of it. The FBI let us examine, I
believe all their files, I am not sure, but we couldn't take possession
of them and we had to send somebody up there to run through them and
dictate on them, and undoubtedly they helped us some in the trial.
They helped us in this way. If you had a witness on the stand--I was
cross-examining and I would say, well now, you talked to the FBI and he
would say yes, sir, and they really picked up when they knew they had
talked to the FBI and then I would say didn't you tell them this and
they would usually admit it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether the files of the--of either of
these agencies or both of them were made available to the police in
connection with the two cases?
Mr. WADE. It is a one-way deal usually with the FBI, you know. They
don't usually tell you anything about their files but I say they did
show us their files on this, and whether they showed them to the police
I have no idea.
I will say they turned their files to the U.S. attorney and let me send
somebody up there to look at it, 4,500 pages of it.
But that was about a week before the trial, and during the picking of
the jury when we were still going through them.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn anything during your investigation of the
Ruby case about the billfold and the ignition case in the car?
Mr. WADE. Of Ruby's car?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. WADE. No.
Mr. RANKIN. That didn't come to your attention?
Mr. WADE. You know they found a lot of stuff in his car and a lot of
stuff on his person. I might say this--there are only two pieces of
evidence found on him I wanted to introduce during the trial and until
this day I never have found either one of them.
I don't know where they are. The police say they gave them to us, and I
know they didn't. One was the receipt from the Western Union which we
never, can't find the original of that or a copy, which I think you all
have a copy of it.
The second one was he had in his possession a "Lifeline Deal on
Heroism," telling about everybody had to take things into their own
hands and be a hero.
We later got a copy of that because the night before the killing he
gave that to the Weird Beard up at KLIF, radio station, and told him
that we had to have some heroes, that was the night before the killing.
We got a copy of what the article was but one of them, two or three
copies were in his possession but I never could find one to introduce.
I never did know for sure whether to introduce it because there was a
lot of good American patriotism in the thing and, of course, there is a
lot of other that is complete hogwash, you know, and you don't know how
a jury is going to read part of it and like it and the other part not,
but the title of it was "Heroism" and he talked to the Weird Beard,
this was in testimony, that somebody had to be a hero.
This was the night before the killing.
This was in before, this was before the jury, and said he gave him an
article, the title of it was "Heroism," that he never did read.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you supplied to the Commission all the information
that you have or has come to your attention with regard to the
assassination of the President?
Mr. WADE. I don't know of anything. As far as I know, I have. I never
did get any information on the assassination of the President. I
requested them to send it up here to begin with.
Mr. RANKIN. And all you have in regard to Jack Ruby, too.
Mr. WADE. Everything I know of.
Like I said I let them take those pictures of the physical evidence
last week, and there are supposed to be some things that I don't know
where it is. It is not in my office, I think the police have lost them
actually or at least they are up there and I don't think anybody is
trying to hide anything but it is just a situation there is so much
that it just got lost in the shuffle.
Mr. RANKIN. So, far as you know it has all been supplied then?
Mr. WADE. As far as I know it has. I don't know--I know of nothing in
my files that you don't have, and if there is you sure are entitled to
have it. I am not sure about this letter you mentioned from the lawyer,
the affidavit but I am pretty sure you all have that but I know I got
that during the trial and stuck it in my desk somewhere and I don't
even know where it is but it will be available.
Mr. RANKIN. In any of these press conferences that you have described
did you ever say anything about the type of rifle that was thought to
be involved in the killing of the President?
Mr. WADE. I think that was one of the inaccuracies that Sunday night on
the thing.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about it?
Mr. WADE. I think I said I thought it was a Mauser or I thought--was
one of those things I didn't know what it was. It was an Italian gun, I
think and I really thought I was giving them Italian but Mauser is a
German gun, isn't it?
But I think you have that--it was a situation, I don't contend I
was right on that because it was a situation somebody asked me that
and that is what I thought I was telling them and I never--all my
information came from the police and actually somebody said originally
it was a Mauser but it turned out it was not.
Mr. RANKIN. You learned it was not.
Mr. WADE. Oh, yes; there was no question, I am not contending whatever
I said was so on that because I got it all secondhand from someone else.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that the Mauser-type rifle was similar in the
type of action to the gun that was involved. Did that ever come to your
attention?
Mr. WADE. I think someone told me that but I am not an expert on guns.
I don't believe I ever saw this gun except from a distance. I think
that Saturday night--Friday night, the 22d when they were taking it to
Washington, I saw somebody take it through homicide and give it to the
FBI and from a distance, I never did examine it.
Mr. RANKIN. In your testimony you were not entirely sure as to whether
Chief Curry had the gun during the press conference?
Mr. WADE. No; I am not. I remember seeing some officer wave that gun
around. I was tying it into Chief Curry but it could have been the day
before, because that gun actually should have still been in Washington
on the 23d.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. WADE. I am deducting, I think probably that I saw someone else with
the gun, rather than Chief Curry.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you in any press conference describe anything about
paraffin tests?
Mr. WADE. I told them they gave him paraffin tests. I believe that--I
am not positive what I told them, but what I was told, they found
paraffin on one hand--powder showed positive on one hand. I don't know
which one, but I remember the police told me the paraffin test was
positive on one hand. I don't know which hand.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you indicate what that meant in terms of the effect on
crime or its investigation?
Mr. WADE. Well, of course, it meant that a man had fired a gun if they
find powder on his hands. I assume I have told them that. I think
that was Sunday night when we were laying out the evidence, so far as
I know. I don't think that was prior to his being killed. It was, it
shouldn't have been done, but I think that was Friday night.
Mr. RANKIN. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice. Mr. Dulles has a few
questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, do you have some questions you would like to
ask Mr. Wade?
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Chief Justice, Mr. Ford, believing I was the only one
going to be here during the interrogation--during the entire session
this morning--gave me a few questions and asked me to tell you he was
very sorry he could not be here today, but he will be here tomorrow.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. A great many of these questions have already been covered.
I will just run over them briefly.
You have testified as to a telephone call that the attorney general
received from Washington, what he told you about that. Did you have
anything further to add to that?
Mr. WADE. No, sir; I believe we have covered that all right. I
was trying to think. In the course of this thing, during all this
investigation, I have talked to Cliff Carter in the White House, or at
least he used to be, but I don't think we talked then on it. I think it
was later, the next day, and then 2 or 3 days later, as I recall, but
I believe right after they got back to Washington, I got a call from
Cliff Carter wondering whether they had the person, or something, but
Cliff was one of President Johnson's aides.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. WADE. And I have talked with him later, I think, on, I don't know,
I don't think it concerned any of these problems, but I am just talking
out loud with you, but we have covered that fully and, I believe, the
attorney general told you that he had talked to somebody in the White
House about it and called me, I think that is where he told me where he
had----
Mr. DULLES. There were no other messages other than these messages that
you mentioned with Cliff Carter, is that right?
Mr. WADE. Yes; I talked to him, but I don't think it concerned this
problem. I think it was on a--as a matter of fact, I think it was after
Ruby had shot Oswald when I talked to him, but it is one of those
things I can't remember. I hope you don't think I am trying not to tell
you, I don't mind telling you anything, but talking to you that I got
a call every 5 minutes, and so I don't know, mostly the press calling,
you know.
Mr. DULLES. Was the conduct of the investigation of the assassination
hindered by any possible overlapping of jurisdiction between Federal,
State, and local authorities? You have dealt with that in a general
way. Do you have anything more to say on that point?
Mr. WADE. Well, I think the investigation of the assassination was
carried on in a rather cooperative manner between all the agencies
concerned. I think this cooperation was more than generally you would
have. It was born out of a feeling that all the agencies were to some
extent on the spot, I think, your FBI, your Secret Service. I think
that bred cooperation rather than antagonism. I don't know of any
antagonism. I think the biggest fault with the investigation was your
press and television.
I don't think there is any question that you people up here deal with
it. But you take a chief of police, a little chief of police, or a
little district attorney down there who is not used to having all,
everybody, calling you all hours of the night and asking you questions,
and then if you sneeze, write a front page story about what you said,
with no way to deny it, you know, and I think the press was the biggest
thing that caused--I don't think they ever ought to have been in the
police department to begin with. I would have liked to have kept them
out of the courtroom. The judge announced that he was going to have
them in the courtroom, but I was instrumental in keeping them out.
Mr. DULLES. When we were in Dallas, it was suggested to us that the
press, radio, and news media kind of took possession of city hall
there, and it was a question of throwing them out by force of arms or
leaving them there. Do you have any comment on that?
Mr. WADE. I don't know how they got in. I don't see how they could
run those big cables right through the chief of police's office there
without somebody giving them permission. However, I have no way of
knowing how they got in.
Mr. DULLES. It was suggested to us that the chief of police was out at
the airport and did not get back, and found them in there when he got
back at 3 o'clock.
Mr. WADE. How they got in I have no idea, but the whole mechanics of
the thing--for instance, in the homicide office, the whole office--you
probably have seen it--I don't imagine it is as big as this room. It is
cut up into little offices.
Mr. DULLES. I was in there; yes.
Mr. WADE. If you know, when I went into the office, went into that
office there Friday night, you had to push people back to open the door
to get out. You had police having to move the crowd, and they were just
stacked down that corridor, and it was a situation that should not have
developed.
Of course, you have a situation where the press yell that the American
people have a right to know their President had been assassinated. I
don't say there are not two sides to the situation, but I think when
they get to interfering with the processes of law there is bound to be
a middle ground or some way to work it out. I can't solve it.
Mr. DULLES. So far as you know, have all documents of any evidence,
of any kind whatsoever, collected by State and local authorities in
Texas been turned over to the Federal authorities and the President's
Commission?
Mr. WADE. So far as I know they have. We have either sent it to the
Commission or to Mr. Waggoner Carr, and I assume whatever he gets
he sends to you all. I don't know of any documents; I don't know
whether--you don't have a transcript of the trial, but that will be
testimony.
The CHAIRMAN. How long was the transcript, Mr. Wade?
Mr. WADE. I don't know how many pages. I don't think--we don't have
our copy of it. We ordered a copy, and so--he filed a pauper's oath,
so I don't have any idea how long it will be. It was about 2 weeks of
testimony, an argument, and also 2 weeks of picking the jury. They took
all that down, all questioning of prospective jurors, so all that will
be in the transcript.
The CHAIRMAN. Will that all be in the record on appeal?
Mr. WADE. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Have they made any extra copies, do you know?
Mr. WADE. I know they are making some extra copies that have been
bought by individuals, I believe Life magazine, some of those magazines
have ordered a copy.
The CHAIRMAN. I see; yes.
Mr. WADE. We are having to pay for ours. We are having to pay for ours,
and, of course, we will handle that, we will use that when briefing our
case on appeal.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what it will cost? You don't know that yet?
Mr. WADE. I think--we think--our copy will be $3,000. I mean I have got
that figure in my mind, because the Commissioners' Court kicked about
us having to pay court reporters who are working for the county, but I
think the court reporters wrote the law, but I have got in mind $3,000,
but that is a copy. The original usually is twice that much, but of
course, a copy is all you would want. But you can write Mr. Jimmy
Muleady. He is the official court reporter of that court.
Mr. DULLES. You have testified with regard to the Hudkins and Goulden
rumors that the FBI or CIA or some other Federal agency might have
employed Oswald. One or the other of those correspondents indicated
that he got his information from some high official that he refused to
identify--he or they--refused to identify. Do you know anything about
that?
Mr. WADE. No; Hudkins, as I recall, wrote in his article--I don't know
who the high official is, but I imagine they are basing it on me or
the police or someone--Hudkins put in his article, you know he wrote
all this stuff, he is a wild writer, and he said, "Henry Wade said he
doubted whether it would be public information" or something.
Well, he came running into me one day there and said, "Now, I have got
all kinds of evidence that he is working for the FBI."
And I said, "Well, fine, I have none myself," and he said, "What would
you think about it?"
I said, "Well, you are getting onto a situation that I don't know
whether it ought to be public information or not." I mean, I asked,
suppose he did, I don't know whether it would be something that ought
to be written or not, well, more or less trying to get him not to write
the article, and I said, "Assuming it is so, I don't see you are doing
any good writing it."
So he quoted from that. That is all the conversation I had with
Hudkins, and you can get that--I haven't seen the Goulden article, and
didn't talk with him. I haven't seen Joe Goulden--I assume it is Joe
Goulden. He left Dallas and went with a Philadelphia paper. So if it is
the situation, if I have seen it I don't remember anything about it, if
he wrote a story.
But the high official, all I can tell you anything on that, I have
absolutely no evidence myself or any personal knowledge that he worked
for the FBI or any Federal agency, and the only thing I have heard are
rumors on the subject, and none of them that has got anything to base
it on that I know of.
Does that cover that?
Mr. DULLES. That covers that.
You referred to the statement attributed to you made prior to Oswald's
killing that the case against him was closed. I understand you say that
was not correct, you did not make that statement.
Mr. WADE. That is right. To the best of my knowledge, I never said
that. I mean that is what burned me up more than anything, more than
any other statement on television when I saw it. I had not been on
television. They have written this in the Dallas papers and some woman
wrote in and said she saw me say it on television. But I would like to
see a picture of it because the case never had actually been opened as
far as--I mean, we weren't investigating the case. I think that night
I told them, of course he is dead, there is no way of trying him. But
the purpose, one other purpose in that interview Sunday night was to
point out that I am sure the agencies will go on investigating it for
the benefit of posterity, and I actually, if not in that interview,
the following day, said I agreed with some Congressmen who said they
thought they ought to have a Federal investigation on a national level
of this thing.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether any other Texas officials made any such
statement?
Mr. WADE. I don't know whether anybody did. They quoted the chief of
police. They quoted Fritz on it, and then they started quoting me on
it, which is all saying that. But so far, to the best of my knowledge,
I never told anybody the case was closed, and I really think that Fritz
must have said something about it, and then people think the captain
of detectives and the district attorney and the chief are all about
the same, and it finally drifted over to me because I left the police
station and never had a word to say until that night when I was on
television.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether there were any official transcripts
made of the various interrogations of Oswald from the time he was
captured to the time of his killing?
Mr. WADE. If there are any, I have never seen them. I have asked
for them, but you are dealing with a man who not only doesn't make
transcripts, but doesn't even make notes. Captain Fritz is the one who
interrogated him most of the time, and if you--if there is any written
evidence of what he said it must be from the FBI or the Secret Service
or someone who interviewed him. I assume they make a record of what he
said to them.
Mr. DULLES. If any transcript was made we would have had it, would we
not? So far as you know?
Mr. WADE. The only thing I know I never have seen one, and I don't have
one of an interview, and I don't know of any--you should have it, but
you are dealing with Fritz there who interviewed Ruby, and Melvin Belli
went right into the conversation with Ruby, and Belli at 4 o'clock that
afternoon made everything admissible, and we couldn't get a thing,
couldn't put Fritz on the stand because he couldn't remember anything
that was helpful. I mean, he could remember Ruby rambling around the
situation, but I don't know of any transcript like that that I have
that you don't have.
Mr. DULLES. In your talks, going back to your talks, with Mr. Carter at
the White House----
Mr. WADE. Carter; yes.
Mr. DULLES. Carter--did any questions come up in these conversations
about not raising the issue that he was a Communist or that there might
be a conspiracy or something of that kind?
Mr. WADE. No, sir; that conversation, I'm rather sure sometime Friday
afternoon, and he called me and said, "Are they making any progress on
the case?" You see, Cliff Carter and I are close personal friends. I
have known him, and they were all upset, and I said, "I don't know. I
have heard they have got some pretty good evidence." I think that is
the only conversation I had with him.
Somebody told me, Mr. Carr, I believe, or Barefoot Sanders, that
they had had some conversations with some Washington officials, and
I have got an impression it was the State Department, but it might
have been--that they--concerning the international conspiracy angle. I
didn't discuss it because it was silly, I mean the whole thing was a
silly deal.
I mean, if you would prove he was a Communist, suppose he gave a
statement he was a Communist, I wouldn't have put that in a murder
charge because I had to prove it.
Mr. DULLES. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.
The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all, Mr. Wade. Thank you very much for
your cooperation.
Mr. WADE. I appreciate what you all are doing and your problems you
have got up here. I know if I were in your place I would hate to listen
to somebody like me talk 5 hours.
The CHAIRMAN. All right. We will recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)