The President's Commission met at 11:45 a.m., on June 7, 1964, in the
interrogation room of the Dallas County Jail, Main and Houston Streets,
Dallas, Tex.
Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; and Representative
Gerald R. Ford, member.
Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball,
assistant counsel; Arlen Specter, assistant counsel; Leon Jaworski and
Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas; Jim
Bowie, assistant district attorney; Joe H. Tonahill, attorney for Jack
Ruby; Elmer W. Moore, special agent, U.S. Secret Service; and J. E.
Decker, sheriff of Dallas County.
Mr. RUBY. Without a lie detector test on my testimony, my verbal
statements to you, how do you know if I am tell the truth?
Mr. TONAHILL. Don't worry about that, Jack.
Mr. RUBY. Just a minute, gentlemen.
Chief Justice WARREN. You wanted to ask something, did you, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. I would like to be able to get a lie detector test or truth
serum of what motivated me to do what I did at that particular time,
and it seems as you get further into something, even though you know
what you did, it operates against you somehow, brainwashes you, that
you are weak in what you want to tell the truth about and what you want
to say which is the truth.
Now Mr. Warren, I don't know if you got any confidence in the lie
detector test and the truth serum, and so on.
Chief Justice WARREN. I can't tell you just how much confidence I have
in it, because it depends so much on who is taking it, and so forth.
But I will say this to you, that if you and your counsel want any kind
of test, I will arrange it for you. I would be glad to do that, if you
want it.
I wouldn't suggest a lie detector test to testify the truth, We will
treat you just the same as we do any other witness, but if you want
such a test, I will arrange for it.
Mr. RUBY. I do want it. Will you agree to that, Joe?
Mr. TONAHILL. I sure do, Jack.
Chief Justice WARREN. Any kind of a test you want to verify what you
say, we will be glad to do.
Mr. RUBY. I want it even if you put me into a sort of drowsiness so you
can question me as to anything pertaining to my involvement in this
particular act.
Mr. TONAHILL. Jack, you have wanted to do that from the very beginning,
haven't you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and the reason why I am asking for that is--are you
limited for time?
Chief Justice WARREN. No; we have all the time you want.
Mr. RUBY. As it started to trial--I don't know if you realize
my reasoning, how I happened to be involved--I was carried away
tremendously emotionally, and all the time I tried to ask Mr. Belli, I
wanted to get up and say the truth regarding the steps that led me to
do what I have got involved in, but since I have a spotty background
in the night club business, I should have been the last person to ever
want to do something that I had been involved in.
In other words, I was carried away tremendously.
You want to ask me questions?
Chief Justice WARREN. You tell us what you want, and then we will ask
you some questions.
Mr. RANKIN. I think he ought to be sworn.
Mr. RUBY. Am I boring you?
Chief Justice WARREN. Go ahead. All right, Mr. Ruby, tell us your story.
Mr. RUBY. That particular morning--where is Mr. Moore--I had to go down
to the News Building, getting back to this--I don't want to interrupt.
Chief Justice WARREN. What morning do you mean?
Mr. RUBY. Friday morning, the starting of the tragedy.
Mr. Belli evidently did not go into my case thoroughly,
circumstantially. If he had gone into it, he wouldn't have tried to
vindicate me on an insanity plea to relieve me of all responsibility,
because circumstantially everything looks so bad for me.
It can happen--it happens to many people who happen to be at the wrong
place at the right time.
Had Mr. Belli spent more time with me, he would have realized not
to try to get me out completely free; at the time we are talking,
technically, how attorneys operate.
Chief Justice WARREN. I understand.
Mr. RUBY. Different things came up, flashed back into my mind, that
it dirtied my background, that Mr. Belli and I tell the truth what I
went to say that I wanted to get on the stand and tell the truth what
happened that morning, he said, "Jack, when they get you on the stand,
you are actually speaking of a premeditated crime that you involved
yourself in."
But I didn't care, because I wanted to tell the truth.
He said, "When the prosecution gets you on the stand, they will cut you
to ribbons."
So naturally, I had to retract, and he fought his way to try to
vindicate me out of this particular crime.
You follow that?
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes; I do indeed.
Mr. RUBY. I want you to question me and requestion me on anything you
want, plus the fact I do want the tests when they are available.
Chief Justice WARREN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. On Friday, the morning parade--this goes back to Thursday
night, because it has something to do with it.