Mr. DULLES. In connection with the assassination?
Mr. HOOVER. Yes; I would certainly go that far. There was suspicion at
first this might be a Castro act.
Representative BOGGS. Right.
Mr. HOOVER. We had information that had been obtained in Mexico City
by another intelligence agency indicating there was a man who had seen
a certain amount of money passed to Oswald at the Cuban Consulate. I
think it was $6,000 that was passed. We went into that very thoroughly.
The man later retracted his statement and stated it was not true. He
was asked whether he would take a lie detector test, and he did. The
lie detector test showed that he was telling a lie.
As to the lie detector, I do want to make this comment on it. I have
always held to the opinion that it is not a perfect piece of machinery.
It is an interpretation made by human beings of what the machine, the
polygraph, shows. I would never want to convict or to send to the
penitentiary any person solely on the evidence of the lie detector. It
is a contribution in an investigation, a more or less psychological
contribution.
But I have seen individuals who have failed the lie detector test and
who were just as innocent as they could be. That particular lead in
Mexico City was completely disproved; there was no foundation for it.
We found no associations between Oswald and Ruby. There has been a
story printed that Ruby and Oswald worked together and were close
friends.
There was no evidence, there was never any indication that we could
find that Oswald had ever been in Ruby's nightclub or had had any
association with him.
Ruby comes from Chicago, he was on the fringe of what you might call
the elements of the underworld there. He came to Dallas, opened up
the nightclub and it was a place where, certainly not the better
class of people went, but it wasn't any so-called "joint," to use the
vernacular. It was just another nightclub. So far as we have been able
to establish there was no relationship or contact between Oswald and
Ruby or anyone else allegedly involved in this assassination.
Representative BOGGS. The FBI interviewed practically everybody who
ever associated with Oswald?
Mr. HOOVER. It did.
Representative BOGGS. You didn't find any indication of why anyone
should even suspect that Oswald would do this, did you?
Mr. HOOVER. We found no indication at all that Oswald was a man
addicted to violence. The first indication of an act of violence came
after he, Oswald, had been killed, and Mrs. Oswald told us about the
attempt on General Walker's life by Oswald. No one had known a thing
about that.
I think in the Enquirer article there is reference to the fact that the
Dallas Police knew or suspected Oswald of possibly being a party to the
shooting into the house of General Walker. Chief Curry specifically
denies that. There was no connection of that kind and there was no
evidence that Oswald had any streak of violence.
We went back into his Marine Corps record. He was a "loner." He didn't
have many friends. He kept to himself, and when he went abroad, he
defected to Russia. The first evidence we had of him in our file was
a statement to the press in Moscow. And then later, about 22 months
later, he returned to the Embassy there and according to the report of
the Embassy we have and which the Commission has been furnished, the
Embassy gave him a clean bill. He had seen the error of his ways and
disliked the Soviet atmosphere, et cetera, and they, therefore, cleared
him, paid his way and paid his wife's way to come back to this country.
At no time, other than the so-called street disturbance in New Orleans,
was there any indication that he might be a fighter. Well, in that
particular instance he was handing out leaflets that he printed for
the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and some of the anti-Castro forces,
we have several thousand of them in New Orleans alone, happened to see
him and they moved in on him and immediately the police moved in and
arrested him. I believe they fined him $10 for disorderly conduct.
There was no evidence in the place where he was employed in Dallas of
acts of violence or temper or anything of that kind on his part.
Representative BOGGS. You have spent your life studying criminology and
violence and subversion. Would you care to speculate on what may have
motivated the man? I know it would be just speculation.
Mr. HOOVER. My speculation, Mr. Boggs, is that this man was no doubt a
dedicated Communist. He prefers to call himself a Marxist, but there
you get into the field of semantics. He was a Communist, he sympathized
thoroughly with the Communist cause.
I don't believe now, as I look back on it, that he ever changed his
views when he asked to come back to this country. I personally feel
that when he went to the American Embassy in Moscow originally to
renounce his citizenship he should have been able right then and there
to sign the renouncement. He never could have gotten back here. I think
that should apply to almost all defectors who want to defect and become
a part of a system of government that is entirely foreign to ours. If
they have that desire, they have that right, but if they indicate a
desire for it, let them renounce their citizenship at once.
That was not done. He stayed in Moscow awhile and he went to Minsk
where he worked. There was no indication of any difficulty, personally
on his part there, but I haven't the slightest doubt that he was a
dedicated Communist.
There has been some question raised which cannot be resolved, because
Oswald is dead, as to whether he was trying to kill the President or
trying to kill the Governor. He had had some correspondence with the
Governor as to the form of his discharge from the Marine Corps. It was
not a dishonorable discharge, but a discharge less than honorable after
he defected.
Governor Connally had left the Navy Department, and was back in Texas
as Governor. Oswald may have had his anger or his animosity against
the Governor, but no one can say definitely--that is mere speculation,
no one can tell that, because the gun and the sighting of the gun was
directed at the car.
Now, first, it was thought that the President had been shot through the
throat that is what the doctors at the Parkland Hospital felt when he
was brought in.
If that had been true, the shot would have had to come from the
overpass. But as soon as the body arrived in Washington, the doctors
at Bethesda Hospital performed the autopsy and it was then determined
definitely from their point of view that he had been shot from the
rear, and that portions of the skull had been practically shot off.
There was no question but that the gun and the telescopic lens could
pinpoint the President perfectly. The car was moving slowly. It wasn't
going at a high rate of speed, so that he had perfect opportunity to do
it.
Now, some people have raised the question: Why didn't he shoot the
President as the car came toward the storehouse where he was working?
The reason for that is, I think, the fact there were some trees between
his window on the sixth floor and the cars as they turned and went
through the park. So he waited until the car got out from under the
trees, and the limbs, and then he had a perfectly clear view of the
occupants of the car, and I think he took aim, either on the President
or Connally, and I personally believe it was the President in view of
the twisted mentality the man had.
But he had given no indication of that--we had interviewed him, I
think, three times. Of course, our interviews were predicated to find
out whether he had been recruited by the Russian intelligence service,
because they frequently do that.
Representative BOGGS. And had he been?
Mr. HOOVER. He had not been, so he said, and we have no proof that
he was. He had been over there long enough but they never gave him
citizenship in Russia at all. I think they probably looked upon him
more as a kind of a queer sort of individual and they didn't trust him
too strongly.
But just the day before yesterday information came to me indicating
that there is an espionage training school outside of Minsk--I don't
know whether it is true--and that he was trained at that school to
come back to this country to become what they call a "sleeper," that
is a man who will remain dormant for 3 or 4 years and in case of
international hostilities rise up and be used.
I don't know of any espionage school at Minsk or near Minsk, and I
don't know how you could find out if there ever was one because the
Russians won't tell you if you asked them.
They do have espionage and sabotage schools in Russia and they do have
an assassination squad that is used by them but there is no indication
he had any association with anything of that kind.
Representative BOGGS. Now we have some people, including this man's
mother, talk about Oswald having been an agent of the Government of the
United States. I think his mother mentioned the CIA; she has made these
statements publicly for money, apparently.
Mr. HOOVER. Yes; she has.
Representative BOGGS. Just for the purpose of the record, I think it
would be well if you would comment on that, Mr. Director.
Mr. HOOVER. Of course, we have interviewed his mother and his wife, and
all his relatives, and everybody that he is known to have associated
with. His mother I would put in a category of being emotionally
unstable. She has been around the country making speeches, and the
first indication of her emotional instability was the retaining of a
lawyer that anyone would not have retained if they really were serious
in trying to get down to the facts. But she has been in New York City;
she has been in Chicago; I think other parts of the country, always
speaking for money.
Now, that kind of an individual is the type we have seen over the
years, who will say almost anything to draw a crowd. Just to be able to
say something sensational. Many times we have gone out to such people
and asked them specifically, "Now, what is your basis for this?" And
they will say, "Well, I just had a feeling that that was true, so I
said it."
She has never made that statement to us, but we have many other
instances where that kind of statement is made. They don't have the
legal evidence that you must have if you are going to take any positive
action. I would put very little credence in anything that his mother
said.
I think his wife was a far more reliable person in statements that she
made, so far as we were able to ascertain, than his mother. I think the
mother had in mind, naturally, the fact she wanted to clear her son's
name, which was a natural instinct, but more importantly she was going
to see how much money she could make, and I believe she has made a
substantial sum.
Representative BOGGS. And the allegations she has made about this man
being an agent either of the CIA or the FBI are false?
Mr. HOOVER. Well, I can certainly speak for the FBI that it is false,
and I have discussed the matter, naturally, with Mr. McCone, the
Director of CIA, and he, of course, will no doubt appear himself,
but there is no indication at all that he was employed by them. We
frequently get that kind of a story from individuals who, when they get
into some kind of difficulty, will claim they were working for the CIA
or they were working for the FBI.
Representative BOGGS. Surely.
Mr. HOOVER. Now, no one can work for the FBI without the approval being
given at Washington and a record kept of it, even of the confidential
informants. That is very tightly controlled. We have no so-called lump
sum that we can use to hire people. So there has to be a voucher and
specific details of payment. And I know at no time was he an informant
or agent or a special employee or working in any capacity for the FBI.
As to the interviews we had with him in which he gave us some
information, some of it was not the truth, but this was not
particularly significant. The interviews we had with him I would not
term as talking with an informant. He was interviewed while under
arrest by the New Orleans police, and then after he had committed this
act of assassination we interviewed him in police headquarters in
Dallas. But they were the only contacts we had, I think four contacts
altogether, and he received no money of any kind, no promise of any
kind, and there was no indication that he was rendering assistance
to the U.S. Government. We looked upon him as a criminal after the
assassination, of course, and prior to that time we looked upon him
as an individual who we suspected might become an agent of the Soviet
government. There was no proof of that, and we checked him carefully.
We knew of his contact with the Soviet Embassy here at Washington, his
contact with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York, and his
contact with the Worker publication in New York. And none of those
contacts gave any indication of any tendency to commit violence.
There are many people who read the Daily Worker, or what is now the
Worker, and you certainly can't brand them as hazards to the security
of the country or as potential assassins. It is in that area that I
am particularly concerned that we don't become hysterical and go too
far in restricting the citizens of our country from exercising their
civil and constitutional rights. The mere fact a person disagrees with
you in a matter on communism doesn't mean he should be arrested. Many
Communists make very violent speeches, and we know them, but I don't
feel that the time has come that they should be arrested. If they have
violated the laws of the United States, we will, then, proceed with
prosecution, and the cases can then go through the courts. Such cases
last for years before they get to the Supreme Court, and even then such
cases often start over on some legal angle. But, all in all, I think
that the enforcement of security and the enforcement of laws dealing
with subversion ought to be handled in the American manner.
I am criticized by the extreme right for that. They put me in the
category, I guess, along with General Eisenhower. But the extreme
left criticizes me, saying I believe that any person who has on a
red necktie may be addicted to communism, and, therefore, is a great
danger. That is why I say the extremists at both ends are bad, and I
have repeated that several times publicly.
Representative BOGGS. No doubt about the problem being a difficult one.
I remember some years back when these fanatics started shooting up the
House of Representatives.
Mr. HOOVER. I recall that.
Representative BOGGS. I happened to be there on the occasion and there
were many suggestions that we build a bulletproof glass enclosure
around the Members of Congress and so on. Of course, all of us
rejected those ideas because it would be totally incompatible with our
democratic institutions and this, obviously, becomes a problem in the
security of the President; that is what you are telling us, isn't it?
Mr. HOOVER. That is the great problem. We have participated in the
protection of the President since the assassination. The Secret
Service indicates how many agents it needs when the President is
traveling somewhere or going somewhere in Washington, and then I assign
that number of agents to the Secret Service. They are not under my
direction. They are under the direction of the Secret Service because
under law they are charged with the protection of the President. We
have never done that before, but I felt that it was something we must
do if the Secret Service desired it. Sometimes, such as at the funeral
of the late President Kennedy, the procession walked up Connecticut
Avenue, which created a very, very grave security problem because they
were walking with these tall building on either side. As I recall,
we had the responsibility for the Cathedral, and we had 43 agents in
the Cathedral during the services. I was more concerned about these
tall buildings, because all the small buildings have been torn down
along Connecticut Avenue, and there were about six or seven blocks to
walk. Not only the high officials of this Government, including the
President, but the Queen of Greece, General de Gaulle, Emperor Haile
Selassie, and many Prime Ministers were present. They were a perfect
target for someone in some window.
Now, you can't empty these buildings. It is impossible to do that,
because you can't go to the Mayflower Hotel and say all front rooms
must be vacated. Other office buildings are there, even taller than
the Mayflower, and you can't make them keep everybody out of the front
offices because then you get into a police state.
The Secret Service does try to check to find out who have these various
offices. We also check so if there is anything in our files on those
individuals the Secret Service is at once advised. When the President
goes to a banquet or a social occasion, all of the employees in the
hotel, the cooks, waiters, and busboys, and so forth, are all checked
by Secret Service to be certain there is no one with a background
that would indicate a hazard to the President. But that is as far as
I think you can go. You can't put in a whole new staff of waiters and
you can't make people move out. People going to a Presidential function
are generally invited by card or by list, and that is very carefully
checked at the entrance by the Secret Service.
We suggested a few more things that possibly could be done, and some of
which I have doubts about. You speak about this matter of glass around
the galleries in the House. One of the suggestions that we made was
that there be bulletproof glass in front of the President's lectern. In
my own mind, I question whether that is wise. Knowing this President as
this President is, he wants to get close to the audience; he wants to
reach over and shake hands with people. That concerns me because you
never know when an emotionally unstable person may be in that crowd.
As you noted, he has frequently brought groups into the White House
gardens and walked around with people he didn't know. I know the Secret
Service people are concerned about it. I am concerned about it.
President Truman last week expressed his concern that the President was
taking unnecessary chances.
But the governmental agency having the responsibility for guarding him,
the Secret Service, has a natural hesitancy to say, "You can't do this."
Representative BOGGS. Of course, for the record, President Kennedy had
the same difficulty.
Mr. HOOVER. That is right. It was best expressed at Parkland Hospital.
One of President Kennedy's staff made the statement that the whole
fault in this matter was that, in the choice between politics and
security, politics was chosen. That is exactly what happened. It was an
open car. I am thoroughly opposed to the President riding in an open
car.
They did not have any armored car in the Secret Service at that time. I
have now sent one of our armored cars over for the President, but it is
a closed limousine. But on occasion, such as at Gettysburg and Atlanta
the other day, the President got out of the armored car which had been
flown there for his use, and commandeered the car of the Secret Service
which is wide open, so he could wave and see the people. Now, that is
a great hazard. I think he should always be in an armored car that is
closed, that can't have the top put down. But as you recall, President
Kennedy had the bubble top off of the car that he was in. It was not
armored and the bubble top was made of plastic so a bullet could have
gone through it very easily.
Representative FORD. Mr. Hoover, you have categorically testified that
the FBI never at any time had Oswald as an agent, as an informant, or
in any other way.
Mr. HOOVER. That is correct. I couldn't make it more emphatic.
Representative FORD. And Mr. Belmont testified to the same last week
when he was before us.
Mr. HOOVER. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Both you and he would be fully familiar with all
of the records of the FBI in this regard?
Mr. HOOVER. We would, and we would not only be fully familiar with it
because while Mr. Belmont is in charge of the Investigative Branch of
the Bureau--we have two assistants to the Director, one in charge of
administrative work and the other in charge of investigative work--we
have also checked the administrative records where vouchers or payments
would have been made and there is no indication that any money was
ever paid to Oswald. We have obtained, and they are on file with the
Commission, the affidavits of the agents, who at various times were
in contact with Oswald, to the effect that he was not an informant;
that they had never paid him anything; that he was being questioned as
to possible recruitment by the Soviet intelligence; so there was no
evidence at any time indicating employment by the FBI.
Representative FORD. And you were not under any limitation or
restriction from any other authority in this regard?
Mr. HOOVER. Absolutely not. I have the entire control of whether a
man shall be an informant or shall not be an informant. That comes
under my chain of command from the local office which has the matter
at hand. They can't just put on an informant without our approval. The
recommendation on security informants comes to the Bureau; it goes
through the Assistant Director of the Domestic Intelligence Division,
and, in significant cases, goes to Mr. Belmont, and then to my desk for
my specific approval. So I, or my seat-of-government staff, have to
approve every one of those who are used as informants in all classes
of cases, not only in intelligence cases but in white-slave cases,
automobile thefts, and all of these cases.
Representative FORD. There is no limitation on what you can tell us
about this situation?
Mr. HOOVER. None whatsoever.
Representative FORD. No limitation; no restrictions?
Mr. HOOVER. No restriction. So far as the record of vouchers in
the Bureau are concerned, they are open to the inspection of this
Commission at any time going back as far as you may want to go.
Senator COOPER. May I ask just one question there? I think you have
answered it, but in your examination of this aspect as to whether or
not Oswald was an informer or employee or held any relationship to
the FBI, you, yourself, have looked into all of the means you have of
determining that fact when you make the statement to us?
Mr. HOOVER. I have personally looked into that for two reasons: Because
the President asked me personally to take charge of this investigation
and to direct it, and I knew that the report ultimately would be made
to him. For that reason I became familiar with every step and every
action that was taken. Then when the allegation was made by someone--I
think it was the mother of Oswald first, if I recall correctly--that
he was employed by some Government agency, the CIA, or FBI, and maybe
both, I insisted upon a check being made and any record showing any
indication of that being brought to me. When they could find none, I
then asked for affidavits from the field force that had dealt with
Oswald as to whether they had hired him or paid him anything or given
him anything, and the affidavits are on file here that they had not.
Senator COOPER. I think you have said there is no sum available to the
FBI which would enable these men, these agents, to employ him out of
any funds that are made available to them.
Mr. HOOVER. Oh, no; it must be done by voucher, and those vouchers are
examined by the General Accounting Office every year or so. We have
no lump sum in the field offices for employment of informants as such
which is not supported by vouchers.
Senator COOPER. I have just about two questions, I may have to go in a
few minutes to the Senate. I would like to direct your attention to
that period of time when Oswald was a defector, beginning when he left
the United States and when he returned.
Mr. HOOVER. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. During that period, did the FBI have any jurisdiction
over intelligence regarding him, or any capacity to know?
Mr. HOOVER. While he was in Russia?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. HOOVER. No; we did not. We were interested in knowing what he might
say in Russia that appeared in the press. That was our first intimation
that this man had defected, when we read it in a newspaper article. We
were, of course, interested in knowing when he would return or if he
would return. We had no jurisdiction as to what he was doing in Russia
after he had gone there.
Senator COOPER. As I understand it, you had no capacity at that time to
follow his activities?
Mr. HOOVER. That is true. We have no agents in Russia. Foreign
intelligence is handled by the Central Intelligence Agency, and our
responsibility is domestic. We work very closely together.
Senator COOPER. Have you had the jurisdiction since the assassination
or the occasion to examine persons connected with the State Department
concerning the activities of Oswald in Russia?