Mr. BELIN. My color hair?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You say he is my size, my weight, and my color hair?
Mr. BENAVIDES. He kind of looks like--well, his hair was a little bit
curlier.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him that looked like me.
Mr. BENAVIDES. No, that is all.
Mr. BELIN. What about his skin? Was he fair complexioned or dark
complexioned?
Mr. BENAVIDES. He wasn't dark.
Mr. BELIN. Average complexion?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No; a little bit darker than average.
Mr. BELIN. My complexion?
Mr. BENAVIDES. I wouldn't say that any more. I would say he is about
your complexion, sir. Of course he looked, his skin looked a little bit
ruddier than mine.
Mr. BELIN. His skin looked ruddier than mine?
I might say for the record, that I was not in Dallas on November 22,
1963.
Mr. BENAVIDES. No, just your size.
Mr. BELIN. Did he look like me?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No; your face, not your face, but just your size.
Mr. BELIN. Okay, well, I thank you. I was flying from St. Louis to Des
Moines, Iowa, at about this time.
Is there anything else?
Mr. BENAVIDES. I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline
was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of
tapered off, and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks,
but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and
made his head look flat in back.
Mr. BELIN. When you put these two shells that you found in this
cigarette package, what did you do with them?
Mr. BENAVIDES. I gave them to an officer.
Mr. BELIN. That came out to the scene shortly after?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the name of the officer?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir; I didn't even ask him. I just told him that
this was the shells that he had fired, and I handed them to him. Seemed
like he was a young guy, maybe 24.
Mr. BELIN. How old would you say the man that you saw with gun was?
Mr. BENAVIDES. I figured he was around 25.
Mr. BELIN. When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you
had seen?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES. I left right after. I give the shells to the officer. I
turned around and went back and we returned to work.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? Did the officers ever get in touch with
you?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Later on that evening, about 4 o'clock, there was two
officers came by and asked for me, Mr. Callaway asked me--I had told
them that I had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and I
was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you
all the time.
Then I found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the
President. At the time I didn't know the President was dead or he
had been shot. So I was just trying to hide from the reporters and
everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen
him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked
me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could.
At this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't
going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if
you could identify him?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No; they didn't.
Mr. BELIN. You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was
Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES. From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy,
resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or
both, or neither?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. The
thing lasted about a month, I believe, it seemed like.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon.
Mr. BENAVIDES. I showed--I believe they showed pictures of him every
day for a long time there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone at all there that witnessed what was
going on?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No; sure didn't. There was people that asked me what
happened, came up in the crowd there and asked me what happened, and I
said just the policeman got shot.
Mr. BELIN. You talked to Ted Callaway, did you?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No; afterward. You know, I told your--I told him, he
asked me when we went, when Ted Callaway got around there, he opened
the car door and picked up the phone and called in and told them there
was an officer that had been killed. But the officer on the other side
of the radio told him to hang up the phone to keep the lines clear, or
something of that sort.
Then he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did I see what
happened, and I said yes. And he said let's chase him, and I said no.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you say "No"?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was reaching down and getting the gun out of
the policeman's hand, and I didn't think he should bother to go like
that. So he then turned around and went to the cab that was sitting on
the corner.
Mr. BELIN. This cab?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. There was a cab sitting--oh, there isn't a sidewalk
on Patton Street. I mean there is sidewalks, but not a curb, and this
cab had pulled in there by the stop sign.
Mr. BELIN. Which way was the cab headed on Patton Street?
Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed north on Patton Street.
Mr. BELIN. Was it on the south side of 10th or the north side of 10th
when it was parked there?
Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the south side of 10th.
Mr. BELIN. Was it on the east side of Patton or the west?
Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the east side of Patton.
Mr. BELIN. How close to the sidewalk on East 10th would the front part
of the cab have been?
Mr. BENAVIDES. The front part of the cab was, I would say, maybe 5 or 6
feet from the corner.
Mr. BELIN. From the corner?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BENAVIDES. He was sort of, if it had been a curb there, he would be
up on the curb.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. BENAVIDES. And so Ted then got in the taxicab and the taxicab came
to a halt and he asked me which way he went. I told him he went down
Patton Street toward the office, and come to find out later Ted had
already seen him go by there.
Mr. BELIN. Did Ted tell you later he had seen him go by?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; then we had a colored porter that said he had seen
him go by.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be Sam Guinyard?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did Ted say whether or not he had gone down to the police
station to try to identify the man?
Mr. BENAVIDES. After that--After I left that evening, I took off kind
of early because I was so shookup that I couldn't work, and so when I
say early, I usually work to 9 or 10 or 11 o'clock, at night. So I'd
taken off early and the next day the kid told me that he went down
there. I think it was the next day, or the day after.
Well, it was the next day he told me that they went down and identified
him as the guy that came by the carlot.
Mr. BELIN. Ted told you the next day at work that he had gone down and
identified him?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; I don't know if Ted told me, but somebody told me.
Mr. BELIN. Ted worked at Dootch Motors at the same time?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What does he do there?
Mr. BENAVIDES. General manager.
Mr. BELIN. Used-car place?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to go down and get some clothing and see if you
can identify it and I will be back in 1 minute.
Mr. BENAVIDES. Okay.
Mr. BELIN. I am handing you a jacket which has been marked as
"Commission's Exhibit 163," and ask you to state whether this bears any
similarity to the jacket you saw this man with the gun wearing?
Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say this looks just like it. Looks like he had
laundried it, but it looks like it was a newer coat than that.
Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Commission's Exhibit
150," and see if this looks anything like the shirt that he had on?
Mr. BENAVIDES. I think the shirt looked darker than that.
Mr. BELIN. The shirt was darker?
Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell at the time because he had the jacket on
there. That was a waist-type jacket, wasn't it?
Mr. BELIN. Yes; anything else you can think of.
Mr. BENAVIDES. Not offhand, except later on, I don't know if I seen
it on television but I believe I seen it on television where they was
arresting him, the policeman from the theater. But it didn't seem like
he had a jacket on there.
Mr. BELIN. When he was being arrested you say he didn't have a jacket
on? Now at the time you saw him, did he have a jacket on?
Mr. BENAVIDES. He had a jacket on and it looked like that jacket there.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I guess that is all I can think of right now.
I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I
believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and
he pulled over. I didn't never see him get out of his car, but when he
heard the scare, I guess he was about six cars from them, and he pulled
over, and I don't know if he came back there or not.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. BENAVIDES. That would be all. I think if anybody had seen anything
really closeup, that he must have fired just as they got past him, and
they must have seen him standing there, because he was right directly
in front of me. And whenever you see a squad car parked like that, you
think something is wrong. At least that is what comes to my mind.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember.
Mr. BELIN. Pardon?
Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember.
Mr. BELIN. You and I never met before today, did we, except that one
day when we were around to see Ted Callaway and he introduced you at
Dootch Motors and we chatted for 3 or 4 minutes there?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; you and two other men.
Mr. BELIN. Today when we met, you came up here and what is the facts as
to whether I asked you before the court reporter was able to get here
to just relate to me what happened, or did I start questioning you or
try to tell you things as I saw them?
Mr. BENAVIDES. So; you just asked me what happened and I described to
you what happened.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said before the court reporter got
here that is different in anyway that you said after the court reporter
started taking your testimony?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe now only in the change of time, or I imagine I
added a little bit since she was here.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that would be at variance with what you
told me before the court reporter got here?
Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, I don't understand.
Mr. BELIN. What I mean is, is there anything that you said before the
court reporter got here that you haven't included after the court
reporter got here?
Mr. BENAVIDES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Anything you have said in front of the court reporter
that has been different insofar as being a fact which is opposite or
different in anyway from what you told me before?