Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who that was?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't recognize the voice.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then, what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. I went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the
shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a
bunch of things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the
area, I just went back across.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you say, there was a sack laying there?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not
mistaken.
Mr. BELIN. How big a sack was that?
Mr. CRAIG. It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper
bag.
Mr. BELIN. Well, the kind of paper bag that you carry your lunch in?
Mr. CRAIG. Yeah,--uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. Was it more than a foot long?
Mr. CRAIG. I don't know. I think it was rolled up kind of.
Mr. BELIN. You think it was rolled up?
Mr. CRAIG. Yeah; you know, kind of crushed up.
Mr. BELIN. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you
remember seeing, or not?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't remember seeing any.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember seeing any thing there other than the shells?
Mr. CRAIG. No; not--uh--not anything that caught my eye.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you remember seeing the shells?
Mr. CRAIG. They were laying on the--uh--well, as you're facing the
window----
Mr. BELIN. As you are facing the window and you're looking south?
Mr. CRAIG. The southeast corner window and you're looking south, the
shells would be on your right and back away from the window, as I
recall, about a foot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you recall any of the shells right up against the wall at
all--or, don't you recall?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't; I didn't look that close.
Mr. BELIN. How many shells did you see there?
Mr. CRAIG. I saw three.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone move any boxes in order to get in there--do you
know?
Mr. CRAIG. Now, that, I don't know?
Mr. BELIN. Do you know if anyone moved any boxes in the window?
Mr. CRAIG. That I don't know either.
Mr. BELIN. Did you look very closely at the area where the shells were
found?
Mr. CRAIG. Uh--no, because the identification men hadn't arrived, and
we didn't want to stir up anything.
Mr. BELIN. Who was there that you remember?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney with our department--Luke Mooney; Officer
Boone--Eugene Boone, with our department; myself; and some city
officers that I didn't know. Those are the only that I remember. You
know, there were several other people around but I didn't know them.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you do after that?
Mr. CRAIG. They wanted to search the building for the weapon, so I went
to the--I went to the northeast corner of the building and began to
search west.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. CRAIG. Uh--everybody else took a different spot. And as I got
nearly to the west end of the building, Officer Boone--Eugene Boone
with the sheriff's office--hollered that here was the rifle.
Mr. BELIN. How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?
Mr. CRAIG. About 8-foot.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. CRAIG. I went over to the--uh--cluster of boxes where he was
standing and looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on
the floor.
Mr. BELIN. When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you
describe which way the boxes were?
Mr. CRAIG. There was a row going east to west on the north side of the
weapon, and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon,
and--uh--if I remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda
back under the north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed
kinda under--uh--or up tight against 'em--you know, where it would be
hard to see. And, of course, both ends of the rows were closed off
where you couldn't see through 'em. You had to get up and look in 'em.
Mr. BELIN. You are gesturing with your hand there--would you say that
the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would
call a rectangular "O", so to speak?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to
speak?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, it--it was different heights. Now, the part where I
looked in particularly was about--uh--oh, was about 5-foot.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look
straight down? Would that be a fair statement of your gestures?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; yes. You had to lean over the boxes and look down.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what happened? After you found this, did people come over--or what?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; several other people came over.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time this was?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I had no idea then how long it had been.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Do you remember who else came over?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, Officer Mooney and--uh--several of the city officers;
Will Fritz came over--Capt. Will Fritz, with the city of Dallas; some
of his investigators, I didn't know them; and a criminal identification
man, I believe, from the city of Dallas, then came over there to take
pictures of the weapon.
Mr. BELIN. The weapon was moved by the time the pictures were taken?
Mr. CRAIG. No; no. The pictures were taken as the weapon was found
lying there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the pictures taken of the shells?
Mr. CRAIG. No.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether or not anything was moved in that
window before this?
Mr. CRAIG. No; no.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Anything else happen up to that time that you haven't related here that
you feel might be important?
Mr. CRAIG. No. Uh--I'm thinking it was about this time--uh--that we got
the news there had been a city officer shot over in Oak Cliff.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, there was just--uh--of course, everybody stayed
there, you know, and sort of mingled around and--uh--I then went back
downstairs after the weapon was picked up. The identification man from
the city of Dallas then, after he took his pictures, picked the weapon
up and handed it to Will Fritz.
And I then went back downstairs and over to the sheriff's office.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
At this time, do you know, did any person say that any employee in the
School Building was missing up until the time you left?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't recall anybody saying anything to that effect.
Mr. BELIN. Had any description gone out for anyone that you know of
with regard to the shooting?
Mr. CRAIG. I think--uh--no description of the suspect in the shooting
of the officer hadn't went out at this time, but----
Mr. BELIN. You don't know of any other that went out at that time?
Mr. CRAIG. No; no.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then you went back over to the Dallas Sheriff's
Office?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. Well, I think I gave a statement to Rosemary Allen over
there, as did all the officers, as to what they were doing at the time,
you know.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. CRAIG. And--uh--then I kept thinking about this man that had run
down the hill and got in this car, so--uh--it was about, oh, I don't
recall exactly the time, nearly 5 or something like that, or after,
when--uh--the city had apprehended a suspect in the city officer's
shooting. And--uh--information was floating around that they were
trying to connect him with the assassination of the President--as the
assassin.
So--uh, in the meantime, I kept thinking about this subject that had
run and got in the car. So, I called Captain Fritz' office and talked
to one of his officers and--uh--told him what I had saw and give him a
description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up
as a suspect.
And--uh--it was then they asked me to come up and look at him at
Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr. CRAIG. I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5--about 5:30
or something like that--and--uh--talked to Captain Fritz and told him
what I had saw. And he took me in his office--I believe it was his
office--it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair
behind a desk--beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know
him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the
office.
And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw--and I said, "Yes,"
it was.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. CRAIG. Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium
brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he
was slender, and--uh--what I could tell of him sitting there, he
was--uh--short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was
shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see his trousers?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.
Mr. BELIN. What about his shirt?
Mr. CRAIG. I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white
T-shirt.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr. CRAIG. No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one
side.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the
suspect say?
Mr. CRAIG. Captain Fritz then asked him about the--uh--he said, "What
about this station wagon?"
And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs
to Mrs. Paine"--I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into
this. She had nothing to do with it."
And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that,
"All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you
leave from the scene."
And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you
people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he
said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially
out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain
Fritz.
Mr. BELIN. What was he wearing--or could you see the color of his
trousers as he leaned over the desk?
Mr. CRAIG. No; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of
forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating)
forward.
Mr. BELIN. Then, did you say anything more?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I then left.
Mr. BELIN. Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was,
"This was the man,"--or words to that effect?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz say anything more.
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't believe--not while I was there.
Mr. BELIN. Did the suspect say anything more?
Mr. CRAIG. Not that I recall.
Mr. BELIN. Did you say anything about that it was a Rambler station
wagon there?
Mr. CRAIG. In the presence of the suspect?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAIG. No.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know whether Captain Fritz said anything to the
suspect about this incident before you came, do you?
Mr. CRAIG. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of involving this
interrogation at which you were present?
Mr. CRAIG. No. Nothing else was said after that point. I then left and
give my name to the--uh--Secret Service agent and the FBI agent that
was outside the office.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with the assassination that you
think might be important that we haven't discussed here?
Mr. CRAIG. No; except--uh--except for the fact that it came out later
that Mrs. Paine does own a station wagon and--uh--it has a luggage
rack on top. And this came out, of course, later, after I got back to
the office. I didn't know about this. Buddy Walthers brought it up. I
believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?
Mr. CRAIG. No. That's all. I forgot about it and went back to work.
Mr. BELIN. Now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we
chatted for a few minutes about some of these things--is that correct?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. For instance, we talked about your conversation with this
young couple--this Arnold Rowland and his wife?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that we said before the deposition was
taken that we haven't recorded here?
Mr. CRAIG. I don't believe so.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that I said or you said in our
conversation that is different from anything that was recorded here--to
the best of your recollection?
Mr. CRAIG. No; except you asked me before, I believe, did I talk to any
of the railroad employees.
Mr. BELIN. That's right.
Mr. CRAIG. And I said, "No"--which I did not.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. CRAIG. (Pausing before reply.) No--nothing that I recall.
Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me what your
story was before we sat down to take the deposition?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Will you agree to follow or to waive signing of the
deposition and leave it in the Court Reporter's hands--or do you want
to sign it?
Mr. CRAIG. It makes no difference to me.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, you had notice of this, did you not, of this
taking of this deposition?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes. I have the letter right here in my pocket.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Anything else you can think of, sir?
Mr. CRAIG. No.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you for taking your time to come down
here and we appreciate your cooperation. We would appreciate your,
also, thanking Sheriff Decker for us, if you would, when you get back
there.
Mr. CRAIG. Okay.
Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much.
One other thing before you go, Mr. Craig. We might have covered this
before, but I want to doublecheck it.
When you talked to Mr. Rowland about what he saw in the window, did he
say whether or not two men he saw were white or colored?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; I determined that right away. I asked him whether they
were white or colored and he said white.
Mr. BELIN. What else did he tell you about them? Did he tell you how
much of them he saw?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said they--uh--walked back and forth in front of the
windows there--uh--several minutes. You know, not a long time but 3, 4,
5 minutes. He did state that one of them had a rifle with a scope on it.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give you the color of the hair or the complexion or
anything like that?
Mr. CRAIG. No--no; this he couldn't give.
Mr. BELIN. Could he give you the type of clothing they were wearing?
Mr. CRAIG. If I recall, he was vague on one--he thought it was khakis,
but the other man he wasn't sure.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you anything else about these people?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said he looked up a few minutes later and--uh--there
was only one man up there then.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you anything about seeing any other people
in any other windows?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes; he said there were people in other windows looking over
the ledges--you know, leaning up against the outside of the windows,
looking out.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you whether any of these other people were on
the sixth floor?
Mr. CRAIG. No; these two men were the only ones he saw on that
particular floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on?
Mr. CRAIG. Yes. He said the second to the top floor--the next floor
down; which would be the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth
floor--or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor?
Or don't you remember?
Mr. CRAIG. Just the two men. That's all he saw on that particular floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that
floor, or did he say that he did not?