Mr. HOLLAND. Well, that would--they were so close together.
Mr. STERN. The second and third or the third and fourth?
Mr. HOLLAND. The third and fourth. The third and the fourth.
Mr. STERN. So, that it might have been the third or the fourth?
Mr. HOLLAND. It could have been the third or fourth, but there were
definitely four reports.
Mr. STERN. You have no doubt about that?
Mr. HOLLAND. I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt about seeing
that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of
of the FBI several days after?
Mr. HOLLAND. I made a statement that afternoon in Sheriff Bill Decker's
office, and then the Sunday or the Sunday following the Friday, there
were two FBI men out at my house at the time that Oswald was shot.
Mr. STERN. Did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at
that time?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes.
Mr. STERN. You were certain then?
Mr. HOLLAND. I was certain then and I--in that statement I believe that
I----
Mr. STERN. Well, the FBI report that I have said that you heard either
three or four shots fired together, and I gather the impression of the
agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four.
Mr. HOLLAND. At the time I made that statement, of course, I was pretty
well shook up, but I told the people at the sheriff's office, whoever
took the statement, that I believed there was four shots, because they
were so close together, and I have also told those two, four, six
Federal men that have been out there that I definitely saw the puff of
smoke and heard the report from under those trees.
Mr. STERN. Did you realize that these were shots then?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes; I think I realized what was happening out there.
Mr. STERN. You did?
Mr. HOLLAND. When Governor Connally was knocked down in the seat.
Mr. STERN. What did you then do?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, immediately after the shots was fired, I run around
the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if I could see anyone
up there behind the fence.
Mr. STERN. That is the picket fence?
Mr. HOLLAND. That is the picket fence.
Mr. STERN. On the north side of Elm Street?
Mr. HOLLAND. Of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was
just a big--it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and
I couldn't see up in that corner. I ran on up to the corner of this
fence behind the building. By the time I got there there were 12 or 15
policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around
there for quite a while, and I left because I had to get back to the
office. I didn't give anyone my name. No one--didn't anyone ask for it,
and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to
the office and took me back up to the courthouse.
Mr. STERN. Did he know you personally?
Mr. HOLLAND. No, no; he had to find me and find where I was. He
didn't know me, and I don't know who told me they wanted me over at
the courthouse, so, I went back up there with him and made out the
statement, and made--made out the statement before they found out
the results on the shots, or before that Oswald had even shot that
policeman.
I was making out the statement before that, so, it was immediately
after the motorcade had passed through there.
Mr STERN. What was your impression about the source of these noises, if
you had one?
Mr. HOLLAND. Well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or
three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where I
was.
Mr. STERN. East on Elm?
Mr. HOLLAND. Yes, up in here somewhere. [Indicating.] I didn't have
the least idea that it was up any higher, but I thought the shot was
coming--coming from this crowd in here [indicating]. That is what it
sounded like to me from where I was.
Mr. STERN. You are indicating on this Exhibit C. Why don't you put a
square around the area that you just pointed to. You had no idea, I
take it, that the shots were coming from your area?
Mr. HOLLAND. No.
Mr. STERN. It is your impression that they did not, could not, as far
as the sound was concerned?
Mr. HOLLAND. As far as the sound was concerned they did not.
Mr. STERN. Did you see anything on the overpass that seemed to you any
way unusual?
Mr. HOLLAND. Oh, no; no.
Mr. STERN. All right. Off the record.
(Off the record.)
Mr. STERN. Back on the record. Now, Mr. Holland, I'm showing you a copy
of an affidavit which I am marking as Exhibit D. That is the affidavit
you made that you described a few moments ago?
Mr. HOLLAND. That's right.
Mr. STERN. Would you read that.
Mr. HOLLAND. "I am signal supervisor for the Union Terminal, and I was
inspecting signal and switches and stopped to watch the parade. I was
standing on the top of the triple underpass and the President's car was
coming down Elm Street, and when they got just about to the arcade, I
heard what I thought for a moment was a firecracker and he slumped over
and I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke
come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot
but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around
to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running
from there. But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind the
arcade to the trees. After the first shot the President slumped over
and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to
him and then the second shot rang out. After the first shot the Secret
Service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped
back down in the seat. And they immediately sped off. Everything is
spinning in my head and if I remember anything else later I will come
back and tell Bill."
That is Mr. Decker. And--brother it was, too.
Mr. STERN. I'm sure it was.