The testimony of Earle V. Brown was taken at 4:40 p.m., on April 7,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Street, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and
Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Would you please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn?
Mr. BROWN. All right.
Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BROWN. I do.
Mr. BALL. Sit down. State your name and address, please.
Mr. BROWN. Earle V. Brown, 618 North Rosemont.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. BROWN. Policeman.
Mr. BALL. With the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been a policeman?
Mr. BROWN. Fourteen years.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born and what is your education and training?
Mr. BROWN. I was born on a farm near Lyons, Nebraska, in 1917, and I
completed 12 years of schooling, high school.
Mr. BALL. High school?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. Well, I stayed on the farm until 1939, then I moved to Ohio;
Lima, Ohio. I was inducted into the Army and was in there 4 years, 5
months, discharged 1945, August 15, and I was here in Dallas actually
when I was discharged and then back to Ohio for about 4 years. Then,
let's see, that would be August of 1949, we came back to Dallas and
then February 27, 1950, I joined the police force.
Mr. BALL. Now, you are a patrolman, aren't you?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on
duty?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway
service road.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one that leads off Elm?
Mr. BROWN. You mean that crosses Elm?
Mr. BALL. That crosses Elm, yes; the overpass across Elm.
Mr. BROWN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What does it cross?
Mr. BROWN. It's over Stemmons Expressway; in other words, they make
that turn off Elm and go up.
Mr. BALL. You know where Elm, the corner of Elm and Houston is?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then there is a road, the highway continues on to the west, a
little south, is that what you call the Stemmons Expressway?
Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a
road. Where I was was the railroad overpass.
Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass itself?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm
goes under the overpass?
Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards.
Mr. BALL. Let me see if we can get something in the record that will be
your position. You were appointed to this particular spot?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax.
Mr. BALL. Now, this is the place where the railroad yards run over the
highway?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of it?
Mr. BROWN. That's right; in other words, Stemmons Freeway and the
service road both go under the underpass.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. BROWN. James Lomax.
Mr. BALL. How far were you from the point where Elm Street goes under
the underpass?
Mr. BROWN. I would say approximately 100 yards.
Mr. BALL. Approximately 100 yards in what direction?
Mr. BROWN. That would be--wouldn't be straight east, but it would be to
easterly, kind of off at an angle--I would say about from us about a
20° angle to the right.
Mr. BALL. You would be east or west?
Mr. BROWN. We would be to the southwest of that.
Mr. BALL. You would be to the southwest of that?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, I would say that's about right.
Mr. BALL. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight
from where you were located?
Mr. BROWN. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming
and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we
probably could see would be cars.
Mr. BALL. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and
going down toward the underpass south?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You could see those?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you have any instructions when you were assigned to this
location?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were they?
Mr. BROWN. Not allow anyone on the overpass whatever and walk forward
and make both ends--in other words, check both ends of the overpass.
Mr. BALL. That was you and Mr. Lomax?
Mr. BROWN. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Was there an E. V. Brown?
Mr. BROWN. That's me.
Mr. BALL. That's you, and was there also a Joe Murphy?
Mr. BROWN. Joe Murphy is a three-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. Yes; where was he?
Mr. BROWN. I don't know, sir; he was, I believe he was on his
three-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. On his motor?
Mr. BROWN. I believe; I wouldn't say for sure but I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did you people keep people off the overpass?
Mr. BROWN. We made no contact with anyone except one of the railroad
detectives come up there and talked to us.
Mr. BALL. Did you keep the underpass free of people?
Mr. BROWN. Underneath?
Mr. BALL. No; up above.
Mr. BROWN. Up above; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about underneath?
Mr. BROWN. Well, that was roadway there; people wouldn't be able to
walk.
Mr. BALL. On the top of the overpass you kept that free of people?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you have the railroad yards in sight?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. They would be what direction from where you were standing?
Mr. BROWN. That would be east; that would be east of us.
Mr. BALL. East, maybe a little north?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, the whole thing kind of in that general direction, you
know.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any people over in the railroad yards?
Mr. BROWN. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out.
Mr. BALL. But you did not see people standing?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; sure didn't.
Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your
vision to the railroad yards?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level
we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't
have a very good view.
Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston
Street from Elm; were you able to see that?
Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it
stopped.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it
stopped.
Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop?
Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. BROWN. Three.
Mr. BALL. Where did they seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. Well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would
you like me to tell you?
Mr. BALL. Sure, tell it in your own words.
Mr. BROWN. Well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot
of pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did
because I saw them flying up--must have been 50, 75 of them.
Mr. BALL. Where was the river bottom?
Mr. BROWN. You know, actually off to the--between us and the, this
overpass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there.
It's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they
were and then I heard these shots and then I smelled this gun powder.
Mr. BALL. You did?
Mr. BROWN. It come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so--at
least it smelled like it to me.
Mr. BALL. What direction did the sound seem to come from?
Mr. BROWN. It came it seemed the direction of that building, that
Texas----
Mr. BALL. School Book Depository?
Mr. BROWN. School Book Depository.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any pigeons flying around the building?
Mr. BROWN. I just don't recall that; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Which way did you look when you heard the sound?
Mr. BROWN. When I first heard that sound I looked up toward that
building because actually it seemed to come from there.
Mr. BALL. Where was it you saw the pigeons rise?
Mr. BROWN. They must have been down there feeding at that time because
they just seemed to all take off.
Mr. BALL. Where were they from where you were standing?
Mr. BROWN. From where I was standing they would be about half way
between--no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what
they call the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. The triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You were about 100 yards from the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. Approximately; yes.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BROWN. On the triple underpass?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; they had at least two officers.
Mr. BALL. Anybody but police officers?
Mr. BROWN. Not that I know of. I didn't recall anyone.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after you heard the shots?
Mr. BROWN. Well, let me see, by that time the escort as to the
motorcycles, we could see them coming, the front part of the motorcade,
I don't think they probably realized what happened; they had come on
ahead. And then we saw the car coming with the President, and as it
passed underneath me I looked right down and I could see this officer
in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it around, looked like
a machinegun, and the President was all sprawled out, his foot on the
back cushion. Of course, you couldn't conceive anything that happened;
of course, we knew something had happened, but we couldn't conceive the
fact it did.
Mr. BALL. Did you move out of there in any direction?
Mr. BROWN. No, sir; we, well, we checked there; the area, we kept
checking that area through there and, of course, there were people
all over the place but we didn't allow anybody up on the railroad
right-of-way through there.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the
point where Elm goes underneath?
Mr. BROWN. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers.
Mr. BALL. More than one?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you search any part of the area?
Mr. BROWN. We were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and
later we got instructions to check the area around the Depository, Book
Depository Building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those
cars parked around there, which we did.
Mr. BALL. Where were any cars parked?
Mr. BROWN. Well, there's a parking lot around that building and there
was several cars parked all around that building.
Mr. BALL. You took the license numbers?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; in fact, I think there must have been four or five
officers taking license numbers.
Mr. BALL. How long were you around there?
Mr. BROWN. Well, we stayed and then they sent us back to the overpass
and we stayed there until, let's see, I don't believe we left there
until about 3:30 or 4 in the afternoon, and then we came up to the hall
and Mr. Sorrels, I believe talked to us.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer. This will be written up and you
can take it, read it, and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your
signature, just as you wish. Which do you wish?
Mr. BROWN. You mean today?
Mr. BALL. No; it will be a week or so.
Mr. BROWN. Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL. Which do you prefer?
Mr. BROWN. What preference do I have?
Mr. BALL. Well, it will be written up and you can come in and sign
it----
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Or you can waive signature and you don't need to come in and
sign it. It is your option; you can do either way.
Mr. BROWN. I will be glad to come in and sign it.
Mr. BALL. She will notify you. Thanks very much.