Mr. BELIN. Was this after you were married?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go to Oregon after you were married?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. We were married May 16, and we went to Oregon about,
we left the next day, and we got there about the 21st or something like
that. He worked at West Foods in Salem; Exchange Lumber in Salem; Myron
Frank in Salem, and after we moved back down here and----
Mr. BELIN. When did you move back down to Texas?
Mrs. ROWLAND. In September.
Mr. BELIN. Were these jobs that he held of the same type, or did he
work first at one place and then----
Mrs. ROWLAND. One place and then another.
Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why he changed jobs, that you know of?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the first job was dirty and difficult and he didn't
like it.
Mr. BELIN. What was he doing then?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He was working in a mushroom plant.
Mr. BELIN. As what?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I think he was carrying them out, I don't know exactly
what he was doing with them. Then he worked at Myron Frank which was a
department store.
Mr. BELIN. What did he do there?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked as a cook.
Mr. BELIN. Is he a good cook?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Pretty good cook.
Mr. BELIN. Are you better than he is?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not a very good cook.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mrs. ROWLAND. Anyway, he worked there. It was a temporary job when he
got it, and when the time, when the period was up, he got another job
as a, what do you call it, a shipping clerk at the Exchange Lumber Co.,
and he worked there until a few days before we left.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went back to Dallas sometime in September?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did your husband do?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember the first job. He worked for Pizza
Inn as a cook and he worked for Civic Reading Club as a telephone
solicitation job, and he worked for P. F. Collier Co., as a salesman,
and then he worked, now he is working for Life Circulation Co. as a
telephone solicitor.
Mr. BELIN. How long did he have these jobs? The first one, how long did
he work there, approximately?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't know. I think he worked at Pizza Inn for about
two and a half months, maybe. And he worked for P. F. Collier for about
4 weeks, I think, but he didn't do anything there. I mean he wasn't
very successful. And he worked for Civic Reading Club about 2 months, I
guess.
Mr. BELIN. And now he is working for?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Life Circulation Co.
Mr. BELIN. Were you working at all during the fall, or what were you
doing?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He worked for Sanger Harris during the Christmas season,
too.
Mr. BELIN. Were you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. That is the only job. That is all I have worked.
Mr. BELIN. Were you going to school at all in the fall, or not?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; at the beginning of the fall we were both going to
school. But we couldn't quite afford to stay, and so because his job
was only part-time----
Mr. BELIN. So did either one of you quit or both?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Both.
Mr. BELIN. About when did you both quit?
Mrs. ROLAND. In November, I believe it was.
Mr. BELIN. Would this have been before or after the shooting of
President Kennedy?
Mrs. ROLAND. Well, we stopped going before the assassination, but we
officially dropped afterwards.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. On the morning of the
assassination, where were you?
Mrs. ROLAND. We were on Houston Street near the drive-in entrance of
the records building between Elm and Main Streets.
Mr. BELIN. Before that, where had you been that morning?
Mrs. ROWLAND. At my mother's home.
Mr. BELIN. You had been at your mother's home that morning from about
when to when?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we were living with my mother, and so from that
morning when we got up, and we walked part way----
Mr. BELIN. When did you leave your mother's home, about?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I think it was about 10 or 10:30, and we caught the bus.
We walked a few blocks toward town, because we thought we would be too
late to come see him, and we caught the bus, I don't know exactly what
time it was when we got to town, but I think it was about 11:30, and
about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by is when he told me about
the man up in the window.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you caught a bus near your mother's place?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. About what time?
Mrs. ROWLAND. The Ledbetter bus.
Mr. BELIN. About what time do you think you caught the bus?
Mrs. ROLAND. I don't know, about 10:30, I guess.
Mr. BELIN. When did that get you downtown?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 11. I don't know exactly. I don't remember times
very well.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. After you got downtown, what did
you do?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there waiting for the motorcade.
Mr. BELIN. Well. I will kind of work backwards. How long did you stand
waiting for the motorcade before the motorcade came by, if you remember?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 25 minutes, I think.
Mr. BELIN. How long did it take you to get from the bus stop?
Mrs. ROWLAND. The bus stop was right there.
Mr. BELIN. Do you figure if the motorcade came by at around 12:30, you
figure you got down to the spot at 12 or 12:05?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. If you got down to that spot at 12 or 12:05, how many
minutes prior to that time do you think you got on the bus?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 45.
Mr. BELIN. You figure it might have been a 45-minute bus ride?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. That would have meant that you would have got on the bus
around 11:15 or so?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long you waited for the bus before you
got it?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We were walking while waiting for the bus, and it was
about, I guess, 20 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. So you figured you walked around about 20 minutes?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. So you figured you would have left your mother's home
shortly before 11?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. You are nodding your head yes?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, did you notice anything while you were watching,
waiting for the motorcade?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We saw an airplane. Now, while we were waiting for the
motorcade, well, there was a man across the street who fainted in the
park.
Mr. BELIN. You were standing now on what street?
Mrs. ROWLAND. On Houston Street.
Mr. BELIN. That would be on the east or the west side of Houston?
Mrs. ROWLAND. West side--east side.
Mr. BELIN. East side. In front of what building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. In front of the records, at the side of the records
building.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know any particular spot that you were standing?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We were standing near the drive-in entrance. There is an
elevator there, too.
Mr. BELIN. Near the elevator that comes out of the ground?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you said you noticed a man across the street
fainted. Anything else that you and your husband noticed?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, my husband and I were talking about Mr. Stevenson's
visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about
security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the
School Book Depository Building, and when I looked up there I didn't
see the man, because I didn't know exactly what window he was talking
about at first.
And when I found out which window it was, the man had apparently
stepped back, because I didn't see him.
Mr. BELIN. Which window was it?
Mrs. ROWLAND. It was the far left-hand window.
Mr. BELIN. As you face the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. It would be the window to the south side of the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the
western part of the south side?
Mrs. ROWLAND. West.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be the farthermost west window?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; the farthermost west pair of windows.
Mr. BELIN. The farthermost west pair of windows. What did your husband
say to you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, we assumed that it was a Secret Service man.
Mr. BELIN. But what did he say, if you remember?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He told me that he saw a man there who looked like he
was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the
motorcade.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can remember that he told
you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when he told you that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Nothing. I just generally agreed with him.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean "generally agree"? Did you see the man?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; I didn't see the man, but I said I guess that was
what it was.
Mr. BELIN. You mean you agreed that he must have been a security
officer?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I notice you are not wearing glasses now. Do you wear
glasses?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Yes; sometimes.
Mr. BELIN. Are you near-sighted or far-sighted?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Near-sighted.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any trouble looking at this window?
Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I saw the window plainly, and I saw some people
hanging, looking out of some other windows, but he said that the man
was standing in the background.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say about how far back?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I think he said about 12 feet, I don't know exactly.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he could see?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Apparently he could see at least from the waist up,
because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was
holding the rifle at a port arms position.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was white or colored?
Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he thought he was white.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was an old man or a young man?
Mrs. BOWLAND. He said a young man.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether the man was fat or thin?
Mrs. BOWLAND. He said he was either tall or thin. I mean, if he was
tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then
he was thin.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not the man had on a hat?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I don't think he said whether he did or not. But if he
had seen a hat, I think he would have said so.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what color hair the man had?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by
that he saw this?
Mrs. BOWLAND. About 15 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything else about the man?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Not that I remember, except that he was wearing a light
colored shirt or jacket.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about any other people in any other
windows?
Mrs. BOWLAND. No; I don't think so.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you notice any other people standing in any other
windows or leaning out?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not sure if I did at that moment.
Mr. BELIN. Later on?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I saw some people either earlier or later looking out the
windows.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about any of the people you saw?
Mrs. BOWLAND. Some of them were colored men. I don't think I saw any
women.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any white men?
Mrs. BOWLAND. I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where you saw any of these Negro men?
Mrs. BOWLAND. On a lower floor, about the fourth floor, I think, and
nearer the center window. The windows nearer the center.
Mr. BELIN. On some floor lower than the sixth floor, which you think
was the fourth floor?
Mrs. BOWLAND. About the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you and your husband comment about these other men?
Mrs. BOWLAND. We may have said something about there being other people
watching, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. Did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the
fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth
floor?
Mrs. BOWLAND. We looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look
back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. I
grabbed his hand and started running toward the car.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. From the time that you saw or your
husband said he saw a man on the southwest part of the sixth floor,
which you say was about 15 minutes before the motorcade came by, how
much longer did you look back up at the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Just about 2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. After that?
Mrs. ROWLAND. About 2 minutes.
Mr. BELIN. You mean about 2 minutes after that time?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. So that would be up to a time of about 13 minutes before the
motorcade came by?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever look back at the building after that period of
time?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I may have glanced at it, but I don't remember looking
back for the purpose of seeing the man.
Mr. BELIN. All right, or any man there?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Any man there.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing from the 13 minutes on before the
motorcade came until the time it came?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Just talking and looking.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you looking?
Mrs. ROWLAND. At the street and the other people, and we talked about
some men who were carrying cameras.
Mr. BELIN. Now when you were standing watching the motorcade or
standing watching the street scene, do you remember if your husband was
to your right or to your left? Was he closer towards the School Book
Depository Building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; he was to my left most of the time, I think.
Mr. BELIN. What was he doing?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Just standing there talking.
Mr. BELIN. Talking to you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not if he ever looked back at the
building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I wouldn't know for certain.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever tell you he was looking back at the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever notice him looking back at the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not that I remember.
Mr. BELIN. Was he generally looking at you when he was talking with you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Not necessarily. He might have been looking around at the
street or at the building.
Mr. BELIN. Or at anything?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else at that place then that you specifically
remember before the motorcade came by? Did your husband say anything
about seeing anyone in the building, or did you talk any more about the
man with the rifle?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I really don't remember very much about what happened
afterward. I mean it was just----
Mr. BELIN. I mean between, in the 15 minutes preceding the motorcade?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I remember hearing on the radio that the President was
passing Ervay Street. It wasn't on our radio, somebody else's radio,
and that is about all.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, what color dress were you wearing that day?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, my, I am fairly certain I was either wearing a green
suit or red and gray suit, but I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of coat, if you were wearing a coat?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I was wearing a brown coat, brown suede coat.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what your husband was wearing?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. I am not
sure which sports jacket, but I think he was wearing a plaid sports
jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it.
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Oh, no; I wasn't wearing that brown coat, I don't think.
I think I was wearing an olive coat. He probably had his overcoat, but
it is more of a raincoat.
Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing gloves?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing gloves?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you wearing a hat?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No; a scarf.
Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a hat, do you remember?
Mrs. ROWLAND. He might have been. He wears one sometimes. Sometimes he
doesn't.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you remember about what happened
prior to the time the motorcade came by?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, will you please tell us what happened as the
motorcade went by?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, Mrs. Kennedy was wearing a blue--I mean a pink or
maybe a rose--it was either pink or rose dress or suit, I couldn't say,
because she was sitting. She had a pink hat or rose, the same shade as
her dress.
And I remember noticing that the President's hair was sort of red, that
is all. They were facing mainly toward the other side of the street and
waving, and as they turned the corner we heard a shot, and I didn't
recognize it as being a shot. I just heard a sound, and I thought it
might be a firecracker.
And the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more
shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all.
Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Three.
Mr. BELIN. When you said you heard two more shots that were closer than
the first and second, what did you mean?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I meant the second and third were closer than the first
and second.
Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came
from or the sound?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Well, the people generally ran towards the railroad
tracks behind the School Book Depository Building, and so I naturally
assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen
and everyone was going, and I couldn't tell where the sounds came from.
Mr. BELIN. So you just started over after them?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did your husband go with you?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else.
Mr. BELIN. Were you running or walking over there?
Mrs. ROWLAND. It wasn't a very fast run, but it wasn't a walk.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about anything, about the man that you had seen
in the window?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No. But he was reluctant to start running, and he might
have been looking up there, I don't know. But we didn't say anything
about the man.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got over there? Where did you run
to?
Mrs. ROWLAND. To the colonnade over on the north side of Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. As Elm Street goes down to the freeway?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We walked towards the railroad tracks, but the policeman
wouldn't let anybody go further.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mrs. ROWLAND. We just stood there and he was speculating on what had
happened, and he was looking around at everything, and the policeman
inspected a Coke drink bottle that was there, and my husband found a
pen, very cheap ballpoint pen that you get as an advertisement, and he
gave it to the policeman, and then he mentioned the man he had seen in
the School Book Depository Building, and then the man took us to the
records building.
Mr. BELIN. Who did your husband mention this to? Was this some police
officer?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I am not certain. The first man he mentioned it to was
wearing plain clothes, and we didn't see him again, I don't think. And
then there were some other men who took us to the building. I don't
know who they were.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got to the building? Did you
stay with your husband?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. He was questioned in the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear what your husband said?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Could you describe what went on in the building?
Mrs. ROWLAND. When we first came in, we went into an office that had
glass windows around it. There was a man sitting there with a child. I
think it was a boy and he said that he had seen the President shot and
he said that--he didn't say there were three shots, I think he said
there was one, or maybe he said there were more than three, but he
didn't say there were three shots.
Then we went out into an open area in the building, a fairly open area,
and there were some reporters in there, and they started asking us
questions which we didn't answer, because mainly we didn't have time.
Then we were taken into a very small office and a lady took his written
statement and my statement, and there were three other people who came
in, three other witnesses who come in.
There were two young men together, and one young lady who came in.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, when you gave your statement to the police
and your husband gave his statement to the police, or to whoever the
people were taking the statement, do you remember what your husband
said?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes. Do I have to tell you again?
Mr. BELIN. Well, did he say substantially what you said?
Mrs. ROWLAND. Yes; I think so.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that he said that you haven't related here?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I believe he may have said that the man had dark hair.
Either he said that the man had dark hair, or he didn't see what color
the man's hair was. And he said just about the same thing I said here,
I think.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that was said there by your husband?
Mrs. ROWLAND. I don't remember anything else.
Mr. BELIN. Did your husband at that time say whether or not he had kept
any watch on the window of the School Book Depository Building after he
saw this man with the gun?
Mrs. ROWLAND. No.