Mr. BELIN. When you came back up there?
Mr. COUCH. Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment
whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have a
sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with
determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it.
Mr. BELIN. Would these shots--these wide angle lens shots, if anyone
were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that
time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away?
Mr. COUCH. They would be too far away. Possibly if the frames were
blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there--identify
someone.
Mr. BELIN. About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you
came back to take these pictures?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say it took me--uh--maybe a minute and a half to
get back to there after this third shot--because we weren't but seconds
getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. COUCH. And--uh--I jumped out and ran back. So, I'd say not over a
minute and a half.
Mr. BELIN. And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the
area?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Were most of the shots directed at people along the side
there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots
directed at the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. COUCH. Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and
shots such as this.
Mr. BELIN. In what direction, generally, would the camera have been
pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these
pictures?
Mr. COUCH. Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointing
south--because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at
the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park
area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository
property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that
little sidewalk.
Mr. BELIN. And your camera was pointing south?
Mr. COUCH. Pointing south. That's right. Now, after I had taken I don't
know how many feet of film of people standing around, I--uh--we--I
think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were,
now, I can't remember; they were photographers--we stopped a car
that was going by with a boy in it--a young boy of about high school
age--and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car started
off, I started my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from
about--uh--maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground
level on past the park area--a sweeping shot with the car moving.
Mr. BELIN. And that's about it insofar as the School Book Depository
Building is concerned?
Mr. COUCH. Well, no. After we got out to Stemmons--they'd set up a
roadblock just as you entered Stemmons Expressway.
Mr. BELIN. Uh-huh.
Mr. COUCH. We jumped out of the car and I took, I believe it was, a
2-inch lens shot of the Book Depository Building of the west wall.
Mr. BELIN. Of the west wall?
Mr. COUCH. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Not of the front entrance?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason, Mr. Couch, why you didn't
take your first pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself
when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn?
Mr. COUCH. Well, uh--as best I can recall, the excitement on the ground
of people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles--and
I have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his
pistol drawn--the activity on the ground kept my attention. The reason
I did not stay and take pictures of the Depository Building--which I
had originally intended to do when I got out of the motorcade--was
that--uh--another cameraman from our station, A. J. L'Hoste--[spelling]
L-'-H-o-s-t-e--he came running up and--uh--when he ran up, why I said,
"You stay here and get shots of the building and go inside--and I'm
going to go back--I'm going to follow the President."
Mr. BELIN. All right. Was he also a moving picture cameraman?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.
Mr. BELIN. Where was he at the time you made this statement?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs
between the--I met him on the little sidewalk between the Book
Depository property and the beginning of the parkway.
Mr. BELIN. That would be the west side of the Depository Building?
Mr. COUCH. That's right; that's right. It's there that I saw the blood
on the sidewalk.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, Mr.
Couch?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Where was that?
Mr. COUCH. This was the little walkway--steps and walkway that leads
up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the Book
Depository Building. Another little sidewalk, as I recall, turns west
and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the Book
Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. Did this appear to be freshly created blood?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; right.
Mr. BELIN. About how large was this spot of blood that you saw?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--from 8 to 10 inches in diameter.
Mr. BELIN. Did people around there say how it happened to get there, or
not?
Mr. COUCH. No; no one knew. People were watching it--that is, watching
it carefully and walking around it and pointing to it.
Uh--just as I ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and
ran--uh--northward on the side of the building. And my first impression
was that--uh--that they had chased someone out of the building around
that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. All the policemen
had their pistols pulled. And people were pointing back around those
shrubs around that west corner and--uh--you would think that there was
a chase going on in that direction.
Again, the reason that I didn't follow was because A. J. had come up,
and my first concern was to get back with the President.
Mr. BELIN. This pool of blood--about how far would it have been north
of the curbline of Elm Street as Elm Street goes to the expressway?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--well, from Elm Street, you mean, itself?
Mr. BELIN. Yes. This is from that part of Elm Street that goes into the
expressway?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say--uh--50 to 60 feet, and about 15 feet or 10 to 15
feet from the corner of the Texas Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. It would have been somewhere along that park area there?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood?
Mr. COUCH. No. There were no objects on the ground. We looked for
something. We thought there would be something else, but----
Mr. BELIN. There was nothing?
Mr. COUCH. Huh-uh.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this A. J.----?
Mr. COUCH. L'Hoste. That's "L" apostrophe.
Mr. BELIN. Yes; I have that. I have made a note of the spelling, along
with the phonetic sound.
Do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the School Book
Depository?
Mr. COUCH. No; I don't recall what he got--as I recall--now, I may be
wrong, this is a guess--that he did not take any pictures.
Mr. BELIN. He did not take any?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know of anyone that took any pictures of the south
side of the School Book Depository Building, particularly the front
entrance of the building, shortly after the assassination?
Dr. COUCH. No; only what I have seen in Time magazine.
Mr. BELIN. Only what you've seen in Time magazine?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever know or hear of Lee Harvey Oswald before
any of this?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met Jack Ruby?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. There is an FBI report that states that you had heard
hearsay statements that someone had seen Jack Ruby emerge from the rear
of the Texas School Book Depository Building around that time. Did
anyone ever tell you that?
Mr. COUCH. Yes. Uh--where I first heard it, I could not now recall;
but--uh--the story went that--uh--Wes Wise, who works for KRLD----
Mr. BELIN. TV?
Mr. COUCH. Yes--saw him moments after the shooting--how many moments,
I don't know--5 minutes, 10 minutes--coming around the side of the
building, coming around the east side going south, I presume.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Wes Wise as to whether or not he
actually saw this, or is this just hearsay?
Mr. COUCH. No; I didn't. This is just hearsay.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: Is there any observation, other than
hearsay, that you have about this entire sequence of events that you
have not related here?
Mr. COUCH. No; I can't think of anything. No.
Mr. BELIN. In this same FBI report of an interview with you, it states
that--and by the way, I did not show this to you when you first chatted
about this--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. Uh-huh; that's right.
Mr. BELIN. There is a statement as to the time sequence--that you
heard, first, two loud noises about 10 seconds apart. And you related
here that it would have been 5 seconds apart or less. Do you remember
whether or not at the time you gave your first statement to the FBI
you said 10 seconds or would you have said about 10 seconds or would
you have said less than 10 seconds--or could this be inaccurate, as
sometimes happens?
Mr. COUCH. I don't recall now. Ten seconds is not a reasonable time;
even if I said "about 10 seconds." I know a little bit more about
timing than that. We have to time our stories pretty close--and that's
a long time.
Mr. BELIN. And what's your best recollection now as to the amount of
time between shots?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I would say the longest time would be 5 seconds, but
it could be from 3 to 5.
Mr. BELIN. And would this be true between the first and the second
shots as well as between the second and third--or would there have been
a difference?
Mr. COUCH. As I recall, the time sequence between the three were
relatively the same.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Couch, shortly before we commenced taking this
deposition, you and I met for the first time. Is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And then we came to this room and we chatted for a few
minutes before we started taking a formal deposition. Is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, is there anything that we talked about pertaining
to the assassination that in any way differs or conflicts with the
testimony that you have just given?
Mr. COUCH. No; no.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not I questioned you in
great detail about each question or whether or not I just asked you to
relate the story to me?
Mr. COUCH. You asked me to give general highlight impressions before we
began.
Mr. BELIN. And then, after you gave those to me, we started taking the
deposition--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And then you repeated on the deposition what we had talked
about--is that right?
Mr. COUCH. That's right--in more detail.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of at this time
which, in any way, would affect the investigation of the assassination
of President Kennedy?
Mr. COUCH. No; I cannot think of anything.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for taking your time to
come down here. We know that you're a busy man. We also would like you
to convey our thanks to station WFAA-TV for allowing you to come down
here. We appreciate it very much.
Mr. COUCH. Thank you, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we're going back on the record again. You're
still under oath--and I'm not quite sure whether I asked this question,
but I had better ask it again.
When you saw this rifle being withdrawn. About how much of it could you
see at first?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say just about a foot of it.
Mr. BELIN. And in what direction was the barrel pointing at the time
you saw it being withdrawn?
Mr. COUCH. Approximately a 45° angle westward--which would be pointing
down Elm Street.
Mr. BELIN. Down Elm Street as it goes into the expressway there?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. And when you say "45° angle" would that be up or down, or
are you referring to the angle of incline, or the angle of west and
south?
Mr. COUCH. The angle of incline--from a horizontal position.
Mr. BELIN. All right. So, you would estimate about a 45° angle downward
pointing in what would be a southwesterly direction?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--westerly direction. From looking straight on at the
building, one could not tell the--uh--angle, whether it was more
southward or not. In other words, something sticking out the building,
I couldn't tell. It was not--it did not appear to me that it was
sticking straight out the window, so to speak.
Mr. BELIN. Yes. Is there anything else that you noticed about the gun?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I got that
on the record.