The testimony of Malcolm O. Couch was taken at 9:43 a.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn,
sir?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. COUCH. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Be seated, please.
Mr. BELIN. You are Malcolm O. Couch?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, we are taking your deposition here in Dallas
to record your testimony for the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's right, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you request that an attorney be present here to represent
you?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. We have written you about the taking of this deposition
and I assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the
deposition--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and
sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court
reporter and waive the signing of the deposition--whatever you would
like to do. If you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive
signing it, you can also. Whatever you want to do.
Mr. COUCH. All right. I'll sign it.
Mr. BELIN. You want to sign it?
Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. Couch, where do you live?
Mr. COUCH. 4215 Live Oak in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. And how old are you?
Mr. COUCH. Twenty-five.
Mr. BELIN. And were you born in Texas?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; born in Dallas and raised in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. And what is your educational background? Did you go through
high school?
Mr. COUCH. I went to Woodrow Wilson High School here in Dallas, I
have a Bachelor of Arts degree from John Brown University; and I will
receive a Master of Theology degree this May from Dallas Seminary.
Mr. BELIN. You then plan, when you receive your Master of Theology
degree, to become a minister?
Mr. COUCH. I will be ordained. I don't know if I will have a church or
not, but I will be ordained.
Mr. BELIN. Are you married, Mr. Couch?
Mr. COUCH. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Any family at all?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; one boy--since last Friday.
Mr. BELIN. Since last Friday? Well, congratulations to you. I assume
your wife and baby are doing well?
Mr. COUCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you major in at college?
Mr. COUCH. Social science.
Mr. BELIN. What is your present occupation, Mr. Couch?
Mr. COUCH. Part-time television news cameraman with WFAA-TV in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. When you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school
part time----
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And spending part time with WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been employed by WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--for 2 years straight. But I worked with them full and
part time, I believe, back in--starting in 1955 to 1957.
Mr. BELIN. And then what happened in 1957?
Mr. COUCH. I went to college.
Mr. BELIN. You went to college full time?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And then you got out in 1961?
Mr. COUCH. I got out in January 1960.
Mr. BELIN. January 1960?
Mr. COUCH. Yes--and came back to Dallas and went into graduate school
here.
Mr. BELIN. And when you came back to Dallas, you went to work with
WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. No; no. I began going to Dallas Seminary, but--uh--I
worked for Keitz & Herndon Film Studios--[spelling] K-e-i-t-z and
H-e-r-n-d-o-n.
Mr. BELIN. Have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of
college other than those?
Mr. COUCH. I worked a year for Camp Elhar, as executive director of the
camp. It's a Christian camp here in Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Is this for youngsters?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Boys and girls?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And when did that employment take place?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--I believe it was September 1961--and ended in September
1962. I started working for WFAA in March of 1962. And I've been there
2 years.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, part of the time while you were working with
this camp, you were also part time with WFAA-TV?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And then when you started to work on your Masters in
Theology, you stopped working?
Mr. COUCH. No. I started work on my Masters when I came back from
college----
Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see.
Mr. COUCH. In January of 1960. It's a 4-year course.
Mr. BELIN. I see.
Mr. Couch, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you
whether or not you were employed by WFAA-TV at that time?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was.
Mr. BELIN. In connection with your employment, what is the fact as to
whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of
President Kennedy to Dallas?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. Could you just state what your duties were and what you did
that day?
Mr. COUCH. I was assigned to cover the arrival of the President at the
airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride
with the motorcade of the President back to the airport when he left.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a
reporter, as a photographer, or in what capacity?
Mr. COUCH. As a photographer.
Mr. BELIN. Would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both?
Mr. COUCH. Moving only.
Mr. BELIN. Moving picture film only?
Mr. COUCH. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were you at Love Field in Dallas when the President arrived?
Mr. COUCH. That's right; uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take moving pictures of him there?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Then you got in the motorcade?
Mr. COUCH. Right; uh-huh.
Mr. BELIN. And the motorcade proceeded, first, from Love Field toward
downtown Dallas--is that correct?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the route you took through downtown Dallas?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--roughly. It was out through the airport parkway to
Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle Creek, down Turtle
Creek to--uh--I'm not sure of those streets. I think McKinney or Cedar
Springs. I'm not sure.
Mr. BELIN. Well, if you aren't particularly sure--okay. What about when
you got downtown to the center of Dallas? Do you remember what streets
you went on?
Mr. COUCH. Yes. Well, we came in on Harwood and then turned right on
Main at the City Hall.
Mr. BELIN. And then you took Main to where?
Mr. COUCH. Main down to--uh--Houston.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You were heading, now, west on Main down to
Houston?
Mr. COUCH. Right.
Mr. BELIN. About where in the motorcade was your car? Do you remember
offhand?
Mr. COUCH. Uh-uh--roughly--and I'm not sure--the fifth or sixth car
back from the lead car. I'm not sure which one.
Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember, as you approached Houston Street on
Main about how fast the motorcade was going?
Mr. COUCH. I would estimate--uh--20 miles an hour. The speed had picked
up some. Everyone gave a sigh a relief that--uh--it was over; and one
of the cameramen, I remember, his camera broke and another one was out
of film. Everyone was relaxed. And--uh--of course, then we turned
north on Houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Before we get to the first gunshot--do you
remember who was riding in the car with you?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--an best I can, it was Jimmy Darnell--Channel 5: uh--Bob
Jackson--Times Herald; Jim Underwood--KRLD-TV; and the fellow--uh--Mr.
Dillard--Tom Dillard--Dallas Morning News. And the driver of the car; I
don't know his name.
Mr. BELIN. Were you sitting in the front or the back seat?
Mr. COUCH. Sitting in the back.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about your position as to the way
you were sitting in the back?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; I was almost in the middle and sitting on the--it was a
convertible--and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on
the seat.
Mr. BELIN. Your feet were on the seat--and you would be sitting on the
top of the back seat?
Mr. COUCH. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. There were three of you in the back?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; three in the back.
Mr. BELIN. And were you in the middle or to the right or to the left?
Mr. COUCH. I was about in the middle.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, as you turned north on Houston, do you
remember about how fast you were going?
Mr. COUCH. Well, I'd say still that--of course, allowing for the
turn--that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. We were
clipping along and, as I said, I do have films after we had turned the
other corner, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving
fairly fast.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the
motorcade, that you remember?
Mr. COUCH. Yes; there were.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the names of any of those people?
Mr. COUCH. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles?
Mr. COUCH. Two-wheel.
Mr. BELIN. Was there one riding alongside of your car?
Mr. COUCH. Uh--he was. I remember distinctly one was on my right going
down Main. They would jockey from time to time in different positions.
As I recall, on Houston, I don't remember any beside us on Houston.
As I say, they would fade back and forth. Sometimes they would be;
sometimes they wouldn't.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, as you turned onto Houston, you said that you heard what you
described as a----
Mr. COUCH. It sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first--the first
time we heard it--the first shot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about where your car was at the time you
heard the first noise?
Mr. COUCH. I would say--uh--15 or 20 feet from the turn--from off of
Main onto Houston.
Mr. BELIN. Fifteen or 20 feet from the turn?
Mr. COUCH. We had already completed the turn.
Mr. BELIN. After you had completed the turn, then 15 or 20 feet further
on you heard the first shot--the first noise?
Mr. COUCH. Because, I remember I was talking and we were laughing and I
was looking back to a fellow on my--that would be on my right--I don't
know who it was--we were joking. We had just made the turn. And I heard
the first shot.
Mr. BELIN. What happened--or what did anyone say?
Mr. COUCH. As I recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction;
uh--nothing unusual. Maybe everybody sort of looked around a little,
but didn't think much of it. And--uh--then, in a few seconds, I guess
from 4-5 seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. And
then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a
gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front
of us. And, as I recall, I didn't have any particular fears or feelings
at the second shot. By the third shot, I felt that it was a rifle.
Almost sure it was. And, as I said, the shots or the noises were fairly
close together they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one
could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel
that it was a high-powered rifle. You would get that impression.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard
the third shot?
Mr. COUCH. I'd say we were about 50 feet from making--or maybe 60
feet--from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear more than three shots?
Mr. COUCH. No.
Mr. BELIN. Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a
motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made
your turn north onto Houston?
Mr. COUCH. Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire
right beside us--and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And
the three shots sounded, at first--the first impression was that this
was another motorcycle backfiring.
Mr. BELIN. Now, between the first and the second shots, is there
anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that
you haven't related here at this time?
Mr. COUCH. Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh--as I say, the first
shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember
turning--several of us turning--and looking ahead of us. It was unusual
for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And
after the third shot, Bob Jackson, who was, as I recall, on my right,
yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!"
And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the
time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a
foot of a rifle being--the barrel brought into the window.