_Mr. Brougham:_--We will first read the letters which were proved
yesterday?
_Lord Ellenborough:_--These are read to contradict Le Marchant?
_Mr. Brougham:_--Yes, they are, my Lord; he proved the handwriting
himself.
[_The following Letters were read:_]
"Glo'ster Hotel, Piccadilly,
6th April 1814.
"My Lord,
"Although I have not the honour of your acquaintance, I beg
leave to address you, to solicit an interview with your
lordship, for the purpose of explaining a conversation I had
with Mr. De Berenger, a few days prior to the hoax of the 21st
February last, and which must be interesting to you. If your
lordship will condescend to appoint an hour, I will not fail
attending punctually at your house, or elsewhere.
I have the honour to be,
my Lord,
your Lordship's most obedient
humble servant,
_Js Le Marchant_."
Rt. Hon. Lord Cochrane,
&c. &c. &c.
"Glo'ster Hotel, Piccadilly, London,
7th April 1814.
"My Lord,
"I had the honor yesterday to address your lordship, for the
sole purpose of giving you that information you are not aware
of; and knowing my letter was delivered (your lordship being
at home when it was presented at the door), I beg to say, that
I am now justified, from your silent contempt and defiance
thereof, _to make my information public_; and which I should
not have done before consulting you on that head, my sole wish
being to state facts, and not to be considered acting
underhand. As I feel exonerated from the last charge, and
being in a certain degree called on to give my evidence
relative to 21st February last; and as the rank I hold in
society will _give weight_ to my _testimony, with the
witnesses_ I shall bring forward on the occasion, I feel
justified in the steps I am about to take, nor can your
Lordship blame me in so doing, understanding the business in
question will be brought before Parliament on a future day. I
am sorry to have intruded myself on your Lordship's notice, by
addressing you yesterday; but, to be correct, I thought it my
duty to inform you by this, what have been and are my
intentions.
I have the honour to be,
my Lord,
your Lordship's most obedient
humble servant,
_J. Le Marchant_."
Rt. Hon. Lord Cochrane, M.P.
&c. &c. &c.
No. 13. Green-street, Grosvenor-square.
"13, Green-street, April 8th, 1814.
"Sir,
"I should have hoped, circumstanced as I am, and attacked by
scoundrels of all descriptions, that a gentleman of your
understanding might have discovered some better reason than
that of "silent contempt," to account for the delay of a few
hours in answering a note; the more particularly as your note
of the 6th led me to conclude, that the information offered to
me was meant as a mark of civility and attention, and was not
on a subject in which you felt any personal interest.
I am, Sir,
your obedient servant,
_Cochrane_."
Colonel Le Marchant,
Glocester Hotel.
"Glo'ster Hotel, Piccadilly,
"8th April 1814.
"My Lord,
"I ask your Lordship's pardon for my letter of yesterday, and
which was written under the supposition of being treated with
silent contempt. To convince you of the high respect I have
for your Lordship, I have the honor to enclose to you a
statement of what I know relative to the 21st February; and I
also now declare solemnly, that no power or consideration
shall ever induce me to come forwards as an evidence against
you, and that all I know on the subject shall be buried for
ever in oblivion. Thus much I hope will convince you I am more
your friend than an enemy; as my testimony, corroborated by
the two officers, would be of great import, not (believe me)
that I myself doubt in any wise your Lordship's affidavit, but
De Berenger's conversation with me would to your enemies be
positive proof; as for my part, I now consider _all that man
told me to be diabolically false_. If my conduct meets your
approbation, can I ask for a reciprocal favour, as a temporary
_loan_, on _security_ being given.--I am just appointed to a
situation of about £.1,200 a year, but for the moment am in
the greatest distress, with a large family; you _can_ without
risk, and have the _means_ to relieve us, and I believe, the
_will_ of doing good. Necessity has driven me to ask your
Lordship this favour. Whether granted or not, be assured of my
keeping my oath now pledged, of secrecy; and that I am with
the greatest respect,
My Lord,
your Lordship's most obedient,
humble servant,
_Js Le Marchant_."
Right Hon. Lord Cochrane,
&c. &c. &c.
_Js Le Marchant's_ Statement and Conversation with _R. de
Berenger_.
"I became intimately acquainted with De Berenger about
eighteen months ago, and have continued so till a few days
prior to the hoax of 21st February last. He was in the habit
of calling on me at the Glo'ster Coffee House, Piccadilly; and
did so frequently, between the 10th and 16th of last February.
He generally called late in the evening, saying he had dined
with Lord Cochrane: Once he called about noon, stating he had
breakfasted with his Lordship, had been with him on particular
business, and was to return to dinner: he mentioned being very
intimate with Lord Cochrane and the Hon. C. Johnstone; that
they were kind friends to him, with whom he frequently dined.
In his apartments, in the rules of the King's Bench, he
shewed me the devices he was drawing for Lord Cochrane's lamp
invention. The last time he called upon me, it was very late;
he appeared elated somewhat by drinking, having (as he said)
dined with his Lordship; and in consequence of there being
company, he could not then shew Lord Cochrane a copy of a
memorial he had written to the Duke of York, praying to be
given field officer's rank, and to be appointed to be sent out
under Lord Cochrane, for the purpose of instructing the
marines in rifle exercise; that his Lordship was very anxious
to have him on board of his ship; that he objected going,
unless with field-officer's rank, hoping to procure a
majority; and that Lord Cochrane had said he would try and get
him a lieutenant-colonelcy. De Berenger shewed me his memorial
to the Duke, the head of which not being in propriâ formâ, I
corrected; it was very long, and related to the losses his
family had sustained as American loyalists; also on the cause
of his first coming over to England. On my asking him, if the
Duke of York was to appoint him, how he could extricate
himself out of his difficulties and leave the Bench, he
answered, '_All was settled on that score; that in consequence
of the services he had rendered Lord Cochrane and Mr. C.
Johnstone, in devising, whereby they had and could realize
large sums by means of the funds or stocks, Lord Cochrane was
his friend, and had told him a day or two ago, that for those
services his Lordship had, unknown to him (De Berenger) kept a
private purse for him, placing therein a certain per-centage
on the profits Lord Cochrane had gained through his stock
suggestions; and that now this purse had accumulated to an
amount adequate almost to liberate him from the Bench._' When
he said this, he appeared overjoyed, and said it in such a
manner as to make me credit him. He remained with me this said
evening, drinking hollands and water, till near two o'clock
in the morning. On his leaving me, I thought of the
conversation, especially that part which related to the funds,
and conceived, from the numerous stock-jobbing reports,
whereby the funds raised or were depressed, that he must have
been deeply concerned in it. A few days after the 21st of
February, it was whispered that Lord Cochrane was concerned in
the hoax. Immediately, De Berenger's former conversation with
me forcibly occurred to my mind, and I then mentioned to two
friends, with whom I was in company, (_and this prior to Lord
Cochrane's affidavit, or De Berenger's name being mentioned_),
that I would lay my existence De Berenger was the sham Colonel
De Bourg, and I stated my reasons for supposing so.
Recollecting myself afterwards, I made them, as officers,
pledge their oath and word of honour, that what I had said on
the subject they would never repeat, or even hint at; and I am
most fully persuaded they have not. The same day, but prior to
the conversation above mentioned, the hoax being the topick in
the coffee-room, I said, I thought I knew more than any one
relative thereto, except the parties concerned, but I never
mentioned any name whatever; yet some days after, I received
two anonymous twopenny-post letters, recommending my giving up
my information, either to Ministers or the Members of the
Stock Exchange Committee; that I might depend on their
secrecy, and an ample reward, in proportion to my report: of
course these letters were left unnoticed. As soon as I
suspected De Berenger to be Colonel De Bourg, I called twice
on him, but could not get admittance; I also gave one of the
officers above alluded to, a letter of introduction to De
Berenger, for him to gain information on the rifle
manoeuvres: he called; was not admitted; left the letter;
and, as well as myself, has heard nothing since of De
Berenger.
"To the whole of this I can solemnly make oath; and I am sure
I can bring the two officers in question to swear to what I
said to them, and _the time when_, although I have never since
spoken to them on that subject.
_Js Le Marchant._"
_The Right Honourable Lord Viscount Melville sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Scarlett._
_Q._ Your lordship is acquainted, I believe, with Admiral Sir Alexander
Cochrane?
_A._ I am.
_Q._ I believe that Sir Alexander Cochrane has been lately appointed
upon a distant service?
_A._ He has.
_Q._ Does your lordship recollect any application made to you by Sir
Alexander Cochrane, on behalf of Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ I recollect Sir Alexander Cochrane, several times, more than once I
am certain, applying to me, that Mr. De Berenger might be allowed to
accompany him in his command, to remain with him on the North American
station, to which he was appointed.
_Q._ Does your lordship recollect about what time those applications
were made?
_A._ I do not recollect as to the precise time, but it was a short time
before Sir Alexander Cochrane sailed upon his command.
_Q._ Does your lordship recollect about what time Sir Alexander Cochrane
sailed?
_A._ I think I should say about five or six months ago; but I am not at
all positive.
_Q._ Does your lordship recollect the particular service that Sir
Alexander Cochrane recommended the gentleman for?
_A._ Sir Alexander Cochrane was desirous that this gentleman should
accompany him, for the purpose of instructing, either a corps to be
raised in that part of the world, or the royal marines, in the rifle
exercise; and afterwards, when Sir Alexander Cochrane wished that an
officer of engineers should accompany him, and when I stated my
knowledge, from other circumstances connected with His Majesty's
service, that it would be difficult to give him that assistance, from
the small number of engineer officers that could be procured, Sir
Alexander Cochrane mentioned, that as an engineer officer, he would be
quite satisfied with Mr. De Berenger.
_Q._ Does your lordship recollect, whether any particular rank was
necessary or usual to accompany such an appointment, or whether it was
solicited by Sir Alexander Cochrane?
_A._ I think there was, but I am not positive; I recollect perfectly
explaining to Sir Alexander Cochrane, that as far as related to His
Majesty's naval service, I could not agree to the appointment; and I
recommended to Sir Alexander Cochrane to apply to the Secretary of
State, or the Commander in Chief, stating, that if they agreed to it, I
should have no objection to Baron De Berenger's accompanying Sir
Alexander Cochrane.
_Q._ Was Lord Cochrane appointed to a vessel to join Sir Alexander
Cochrane afterwards?
_A._ He was.
_Q._ The Tonnant?
_A._ Yes; I think he was appointed before Sir Alexander Cochrane sailed;
but of that I am not positive.
_Q._ Before Sir Alexander sailed to join him upon that station?
_A._ Yes; I am not quite positive about that, but it was very nearly
about that time.
_Mr. Park._ I had my Lord Melville as a witness in my brief, not knowing
that my friend would call him; I should have called his lordship to
these facts, if my friend had not.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Your lordship has no personal knowledge of Mr. De
Berenger?
_A._ No.
_Colonel Torrens sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Brougham._
_Q._ You are secretary to the Commander in Chief?
_A._ I am.
_Q._ Do you remember any application being made in the department with
which you are connected, in behalf of Captain De Berenger?
_A._ I do.
_Q._ About what time was that?
_A._ It was in the latter end of December, or the beginning of January.
_Q._ Do you recollect by whom the application was made?
_A._ Sir Alexander Cochrane.
_Q._ What was the purport of it?
_A._ Sir Alexander came to me twice, I think, if not three times, to
urge the appointment of Mr. De Berenger to go to America, for the
purpose of applying his talents as a light infantry officer, to the
service on which Sir Alexander Cochrane was about to embark.
_Q._ Were any difficulties started to this application?
_A._ Great difficulties.
_Q._ What objection was made to it?
_A._ I represented----
_Lord Ellenborough._ I do not know to what point this applies?
_Mr. Brougham._ Merely that it confirms the statement made by Lord
Cochrane, and shows a connexion between the different parties,
consistent with that statement.
_Lord Ellenborough._ It shows that he was acquainted with Sir Alexander
Cochrane, and that he recommended him to the appointment; we are not
trying the propriety or impropriety of the orders of Government?
_Mr. Brougham._. No, my lord; but Lord Cochrane's statement refers to
the difficulty itself.
_Lord Ellenborough._ But what the difficulties were is not at all
material; it would be going into that with which we have nothing to do?
_Mr. Gurney._ I do not object to it.
_Mr. Brougham._ I will not enter into it, my lord. In consequence of
those difficulties which were felt, the appointment did not take place?
_A._ It did not.
_Q._ But the appointment, in consequence of this application, came under
the consideration of the Commander in Chief's office?
_A._ Certainly.
_Q._ Were those difficulties, without asking what they were,
particularly personal to Captain De Berenger?
_Lord Ellenborough._ No; that we cannot ask.
_Mr. Park._ It goes to character?
_Lord Ellenborough._ Then put the question to character at once; you
must not go indirectly into it, if Colonel Torrens knows his character
at all.
_Mr. Park._ You do not know, personally, his character?
_A._ I do not, personally.
_Q._ Are you acquainted with the hand-writing of Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ Not in the least.
_Q._ You have never seen him write?
_A._ I never did.
_Q._ Have you received letters, purporting to be from him upon subjects
of business, and have you answered and acted upon those letters?
_A._ I do not recollect, since I have been military secretary ever to
have received any.
_Q._ He had been, I believe, in the rifle corps of the Saint James's.
_A._ I believe he had.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Do you know him, personally?
_A._ I know nothing of him, personally.
_Henry Goulburn, Esq. M. P. sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Serjeant Best._
_Q._ You are under secretary of state for the colonial department?
_A._ I am.
_Q._ Can you tell us, whether any and what application was made to your
department for Mr. De Berenger going abroad with Lord Cochrane?
_Lord Ellenborough._ The terms of the application I think we cannot
hear; I do not think Government secrets (when I say secrets, I mean the
detail of them) ought to be stated; we cannot go further than the fact,
that an application was made.
_Mr. Serjeant Best._ That is all we want, my lord; was any application
made to the colonial department?
_A._ Yes; there was.
_Q._ By whom?
_A._ By Sir Alexander Cochrane.
_Lord Ellenborough._ All this must have been in writing, I should think?
_A._ Yes, it was.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You have laid this basis, that there had been some
application, and that it had been in contemplation, that he should go
out as connected with the service.
_Mr. Park._ That is all we wish, we want to show a connexion with the
Cochranes, without this illicit connexion.
_Lord Ellenborough._ No doubt there had been an intimacy and connexion;
whether for good or ill is the question?
_Mr. Serjeant Best._ And this confirms in terms the statement contained
in the affidavit of Lord Cochrane.
_William Robert Wale King sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Scarlett._
_Q._ What are you by business?
_A._ A tin-plate worker.
_Q._ Were you employed, in the course of last summer and this last
winter, by Lord Cochrane, respecting the making him any lamps?
_A._ Yes, I was.
_Q._ What was the business on which you were employed?
_A._ In the manufacture of signal lanthorns and lamps.
_Q._ For the use of the navy?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was it a new sort of lamp?
_A._ Yes; for which Lord Cochrane has since obtained a patent.
_Lord Ellenborough._ A patent cannot be proved in that way.
_Mr. Scarlett._ My friend, Mr. Gurney, has intimated to me that he will
not object to it. Was his Lordship in the habit of coming to your
manufactory, while you were so employed?
_A._ Nearly every day.
_Q._ Do you recollect his lordship being there on the 21st of February
last?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Where is your manufactory?
_A._ No. 1, Cock-lane, Snow-hill.
_Q._ Do you recollect about what time in the morning he came?
_A._ Between ten and eleven it was that he was with me.
_Q._ Was there any particular time when he was accustomed to come?
_A._ That was about the time he usually came.
_Q._ Do you remember the circumstance of any note being brought to him
by the servant, whilst he was there?
_A._ Yes, I do perfectly well.
_Q._ Were you present when the note was delivered to him?
_A._ I was.
_Q._ What did his lordship do on receiving that note?
_A._ He immediately opened it, and retired into the passage of the
manufactory; he came into the workshop again, and shortly after went
away.
_Q._ What time of the day was this?
_A._ Between ten and eleven.
_Q._ What time had his lordship been at your manufactory before the
servant came?
_A._ It might be a quarter of an hour, but I cannot speak precisely to
that.
_Mr. Park._ How far is Cock-lane from Grosvenor-square?
_A._ I should suppose a mile and a half.
_Q._ I should think it was two miles, did you ever walk it?
_A._ No; I do not know that I have.
_Lord Ellenborough._ That is not of much consequence, I should think.
_Mr. Gurney._ Any distance my friends please.
_Mr. Park._ It is of consequence when it comes to eleven o'clock, the
stock was all sold by that time.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did you see him read the note which he received?
_A._ I saw him read the note in the passage of the manufactory.
_Lord Ellenborough._ He made no observation upon reading it?
_A._ No; not that I heard.
_A Juryman._ Did it occupy any time?
_A._ No.
_Lord Ellenborough._ His Lordship did not make any observation upon
reading it?
_A._ No; I think only that he said, Very well, Thomas.
_Mr. Bowering sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Brougham._
_Q._ What are you?
_A._ A clerk in the Adjutant General's office.
_Q._ Do you know whether Lord Cochrane's brother, Major Cochrane, was
with the army in the south of France, at the beginning of this year?
_A._ He is so returned in the returns from the 15th hussars.
_Q._ About that time, do you also know, whether or not he was upon the
sick list?
_A._ He is returned "sick present" on the 25th of January.
_Lord Ellenborough._ That return did not reach you on the 25th of
January?
_A._ No.
_Lord Ellenborough._ When did it reach you?
_A._ I do not know; it was received in the regular course, but I cannot
state the day.
_Mr. Brougham._ Over what space of time did that return extend?
_A._ From the 24th of December to the 24th of January.
_Thomas Dewman sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Scarlett._
_Q._ Are you a servant of my Lord Cochrane's?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Have you been an old servant in the family?
_A._ I have been so for about seventeen years.
_Q._ Do you remember carrying his lordship a note any morning in
February, to Mr. King's lamp manufactory?
_A._ Yes, I do, perfectly well.
_Q._ Do you remember a gentleman coming to Lord Cochrane's house in a
hackney coach?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you know the gentleman?
_A._ I had never seen him in my life before that time, nor yet since.
_Q._ Did the gentleman send you with a note to my lord?
_A._ Yes, he did; he first asked me where he was gone to, and I told
him, he was gone to Cumberland-street to breakfast, because his lordship
told me so.
_Q._ That was to his uncle's?
_A._ It was.
_Q._ Did you go to Cumberland-street after him?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ Not finding him at Cumberland-street, where did you go to seek him?
_A._ I came back to our house in Green-street, with the note; I informed
the gentleman who had written the note, that he was not there; and the
gentleman said, Pray do you know where he is gone to, or where his
lordship could be found? I told him, I thought I could find him, but I
thought I might be too late; for when his lordship went out, he said to
me, Thomas, after you have got your breakfast, follow me, with that
globe glass, to Mr. King's; I had been there.
_Q._ You had been to Mr. King's before?
_A._ Yes; on Saturday I went with some things, and this globe glass I
should have taken on Saturday, but I forgot it.
_Q._ His lordship having told you to follow him with this globe glass to
Mr. King's, you supposed he might be there?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was that the reason for taking the note to him there?
_A._ Yes; I told the gentleman that I most likely should find him at
Mr. King's, as I was going to follow him there with this glass; whether
this gentleman had come or not, I should have gone there with this
glass.
_Q._ You took the note with you?
_A._ He took the note from me, and said, I will add two or three more
lines to it.
_Q._ Did you take the note to his lordship at Mr. King's?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ Did you see him there?
_A._ I did; I enquired of Mr. King's men--
_Q._ I did not ask you whether you enquired of Mr. King's men, but,
whether you saw him there?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ Did his lordship read the note in your presence?
_A._ He did.
_Q._ Did you leave him there, at Mr. King's?
_A._ I left him at Mr. King's.
_Q._ Had his lordship another man-servant at that time?
_A._ Not in Green-street; no one but me.
_Q._ Where was his other servant?
_A._ His other servant was at his lordship's country seat, near
Southampton, and had been there two or three months before that.
_Q._ Had he discharged any servant?
_A._ Mr. Davis he had given warning to, a month after his lordship was
appointed to the Tonnant?
_Q._ When did Davis quit him?
_A._ Davis left him about two days, or three days it might be, before he
went into Green-street; his time was up then, but he was in
Green-street.
_Lord Ellenborough._ For what purpose is this?
_Mr. Scarlett._ Only to shew that we cannot find this person.
_A._ Davis was not in his lordship's service at that time, but he
happened to be in the kitchen when the gentleman came.
_Q._ What is become of Davis?
_A._ He is gone with Admiral Fleming, to the West Indies.
_Mr. Park._ Do you recollect what time of the day this gentleman came to
your master's?
_A._ As near ten as possible; I think a little past ten.
_Q._ It was so late as that, when he arrived there?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You were hired to go into the country, in the room of my lord's
steward, who was going to sea with him?
_A._ Yes.
_Lord Ellenborough._ I thought you had been in the family seventeen
years?
_Mr. Park._ You had been with Lord Dundonald?
_A._ Yes; I was engaged with Lord Cochrane ever since last February.
_Q._ You were in Lord Cochrane's peculiar service only from February?
_A._ No.
_Q._ You said something about having been seventeen years in the
service?
_A._ In the family.
_Q._ Chiefly with Lord Dundonald, the father?
_A._ Yes, and with two of his sons.
_Q._ You did not return home from King's immediately?
_A._ I did not arrive in Green-street till near two, having a father
living in Castle-street.
_Q._ You do not know whether Lord Cochrane saw this person at his house
when he came back, or how long they were together?
_A._ No, I do not.
_Mr. Serjeant Pell._ You have lived with Lord Cochrane several years?
_A._ No, in the family; only since Christmas with his lordship.
_Q._ Do you know the person of Mr. Holloway?
_A._ No, I do not, not even when I see him.
_Q._ Do you know a person of the name of Lyte?
_A._ No.
_Lord Ellenborough._ What did Lord Cochrane say or do when you gave him
this note?
_A._ He said, "Then I must return."
_Q._ That was all that he said?
_A._ Yes; I saw him come out of Mr. King's.
_Q._ You know the different members of the family?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Do you know the major?
_A._ Yes, I attended on the major when he first went into the army.
_Q._ I mean Major Cochrane?
_A._ The brother of Lord Cochrane,--the younger brother.
_Q._ The brother who is in Spain or France?
_A._ Yes, he was there lately.
_Q._ All that Lord Cochrane said was, "Well, Thomas, I will return?"
_A._ Yes, that was all that he said.
[_Mr. Poole, of the Patent Office, was called, but did not
answer._]
_Mr. Gurney._ I will admit the patent to be of any date you please.
_Mr. Brougham._ It is a patent for the invention of a lamp; the date is
20th of February.
_Mr. Gurney._ I will take my learned friend's word for that.
_Mr. Brougham._ That is the case on the part of my Lord Cochrane.
_Mr. Scarlett._ The next witness is to the case of Mr. Cochrane
Johnstone.
_Mr. Park._ I shall use him also.
_Mr. Gabriel Tahourdin sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Scarlett._
_Q._ How long have you known Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ About five or six years.
_Q._ Were you the person that introduced him to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ I was.
_Q._ How long ago?
_A._ In May 1813.
_Q._ You were well acquainted with Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.
_A._ I had not been well acquainted with him at that time.
_Q._ Do you know, whether Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, at that time, was in
possession of a garden or some premises at Paddington?
_A._ Yes, in Alsop's Buildings.
_Q._ Which he was desirous of improving?
_A._ He was.
_Q._ What was the occasion of your introducing Mr. De Berenger to him?
_A._ It was mere chance.
_Q._ Did you, or anybody else, to your own knowledge, recommend Mr. De
Berenger as a person who could assist him in planning that place?
_A._ I had previously introduced him: I will just state the circumstance
that led to my introduction.
_Q._ I do not know that the circumstance is in the least material. You
say the introduction was at first accidental; was there, in consequence
of that accident, any connection with them, as to Mr. De Berenger
assisting him in this plan?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ The place was intended to be called Vittoria?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did Mr. De Berenger employ himself in preparing a plan, as an
artist?
_A._ He did, which plan is here (_producing it_).
_Lord Ellenborough._ The exhibition of the plan cannot be important, I
should think.
_Mr. Scarlett._ It may become material, because Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
had paid him for the plan.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Whether there were colonades, and so on, or not, I
should think cannot be material.
_Mr. Park._ The production of the plan is necessary only, to shew that
it is worth the money which was paid.
_Lord Ellenborough._ I only wish to avoid useless particularity; I do
not wish to curtail you of the least particle of proper proof.
_Mr. Scarlett._ Do you know, whether, in the month of September in the
last year, Mr. De Berenger had made considerable progress in that plan?
_A._ He had; he had nearly completed it.
_Q._ He had not quite completed it?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Do you know whether, shortly before Mr. Cochrane Johnstone went to
Scotland in September, he made him any payment on account of that?
_A._ He did, through my medium.
_Q._ Besides the plan, had De Berenger prepared a prospectus, with a
full and minute description of the objects of the design?
_A._ He had.
_Q._ Had he got that printed?
_A._ He had; he made him one payment of £.100.
_Q._ Do you know that Mr. Johnstone had got a number of his prospectus,
to take with him to Scotland?
_A._ He had.
_Q._ In the month of September, last year?
_A._ Yes, early in October; the first or second of October, I think.
_Q._ Do you know of any payment made by Mr. Johnstone since that time,
upon account of that plan?
_A._ Yes; it was not made by me.
_Q._ Were you present when it was made?
_A._ No.
_Q._ I understood you to say, you knew that the payment was made?
_A._ By letters.
_Q._ Were the letters sent to you?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ They passed through your hands?
_A._ Yes, they did.
_Lord Ellenborough._ The moment it gets into a letter, that moment the
parol statement ends.
_Mr. Scarlett._ Certainly, my Lord. Do you know whether any application
was made by Mr. De Berenger after the plan was completed, for payment?
_Mr. Gurney._ Were you present?
_Mr. Scarlett._ Or did you convey any draft?
_A._ Yes, I conveyed a letter, and I spoke several times.
_Q._ To Mr. Johnstone.
_A._ Yes, upon the subject of the paying him for the plans.
_Q._ Without at present alluding to any letter, do you know what was the
price that De Berenger asked for the remainder of the plans?
_A._ No price, I believe, was ever stipulated; no price was ever fixed
till February last. Mr. Johnstone and myself had repeated conversations
on the subject of the price of the plans, and as to the remaining sum
that he should pay him.
_Q._ You made repeated applications to Mr. Johnstone to pay him?
_A._ I did, always in a delicate way, not saying, that Mr. Berenger
required so much; but he requested I would take a mode of giving a hint
to Mr. Johnstone, as to the payment; a hint he was always ready to take.
_Q._ Have you any means of knowing what was the money Mr. Johnstone did
pay him?
_A._ Yes, I think I have.
_Q._ When was the payment?
_A._ In February.
_Lord Ellenborough._ At what time in February.
_A._ Mr. Johnstone sent me a letter on the 22d of February, enclosing a
letter to him from Mr. De Berenger.
_Mr. Scarlett._ He sent to you, on the 22d of February, a letter he had
received from Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ He did.
_Q._ Did you keep the letter?
_A._ I did, here it is (_producing it_).
_Lord Ellenborough._ De Berenger's letter was enclosed in one of Mr.
Cochrane Johnstone's?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Were the letters by the post? had they any post-mark upon them?
_A._ No; this letter was delivered.
_Q._ The delivery and date were cotemporary with the transaction,
namely, about the 22d of February?
_A._ Yes, it was on the 22d of February I received it.
[_The letters were read, and are as follow._]
"18, Great Cumberland-street,
"22d February 1814.
"My dear Sir,
"I have received the enclosed letter from the Baron; and as I
mean to pay him this week for his plans, pray let me know if
you have advanced him any money on my account, in addition to
the £.50, which I paid him on account last year. You will
perceive that he wishes a loan of £.200, in addition to this
sum, and that he offers me as security, Colonel Kennedy's
assignment. I have told him, that if this sum can be of real
service to him, I will advance it to him, I will take his note
for the amount; and if he is ever able to repay me, good and
well; if not, I shall have had the satisfaction of serving
him.
"As I shall receive the middle of next month a considerable
sum of money, you will oblige me very much, if you will have
the goodness to let me know, what it would cost me to purchase
an annuity for the mother of my three natural children. I wish
to settle £.200 a year upon her, and £.100 a year upon each of
them; her age is 23, past; my eldest boy will be five years
next May, the second boy four years next October, and the
third one year next April; they are all healthy. I have in my
will made a provision for them, but I wish to alter this mode
of settlement for them, from motives of delicacy to my
daughter, Miss Cochrane Johnstone, as I would not wish to
insert their names along with hers.
"I will send you as soon as possible the statement about Lady
Mary Lindsey Crawford, to enable you to give the answer to the
bill in chancery.
"Pray settle my account with Dawson and Wrattislaw, as I wish
to clear off all demands upon me as soon as possible.
Whatever sum you say they ought to receive, I will pay them. I
hope you are expediting the Wendover papers.
Believe me to be,
my dear Sir,
yours respectfully,
_A. Cochrane Johnstone_."
Addressed to
Gabriel Tahourdin, Esq.
King's Bench Walk,
Temple.
"London, February 22d 1814.
"My dear Sir,
"I beg to assure you, that I would not have complained to you
of the disappointment and inconvenience which Colonel
Kennedy's unreasonable delay of completing the purchase of the
share in the oil patent created, had it not reached your ears
from other quarters. I cannot agree with you, that his "want
of cash" is a sufficient excuse; because in that case, he
ought to have stated that instead of artificial reasons. Had
he completed his contract at the price agreed on, namely,
£.1,500, I should be liberated from this place, and be able to
equip myself for the American expedition (which I do not
relinquish) without encroaching on any friend.
"You have often kindly pressed me to let you know what would
satisfy me for the two plans, MS. &c. connected with them. I
really have never made a charge of this kind, and am at a loss
how to calculate, much less to make a demand; but those who
can perceive the labour, time, difficulties and contrivance,
which the awkwardness of the ground created, may better be
able to say, if £.250 for every thing, is unreasonable. At all
events, it is not a charge, but I leave it to you; and in case
you deem it extravagant, am ready to submit the whole to the
valuation of any competent person. What regards the drawing,
planning and superintending, Donovan, and the brass-cutter,
in completing the two pieces of furniture, I am determined not
to accept any thing for; these you must (forgive a strong
word) do me the favour of accepting.
"Should Colonel K. not come to town, I shall feel greatly
obliged by your assisting me with the above sum, in the course
of a week. Pray favour me by calling on Mr. G. Tahourdin, in
order to see the conditions of the assignment, which lays
there, executed by me. He will also show you the Colonel's
extraordinary letters, and all my answers; at least I imagine
that he has, if not all, most of them.
"Could I in the course of seven or eight days (in addition to
the £.250) procure about £.200, either from the Colonel or
from you, on account of Colonel K's. £.1,500, for which you
might hold the assignment as a security, I should be enabled
to proceed immediately to the Tonnant; for I still think Lord
Cochrane might obtain leave for my going _on board_, at all
events; I yet have hopes, though his lordship seemed in doubt;
perhaps you will obligingly urge his endeavours. I fear a much
greater difficulty, for I have heard it hinted, that some
creditors, fearful of my going to America (which I have too
openly talked of), contemplate to lodge detainers against me.
Among these however, Mr. Tahourdin is _not_; for I thought it
my duty to tell him, and he handsomely consented to my
endeavours against America, as the only means to recover from
my many losses.
"My plan is to go on board, if possible, with a view to begin
to drill the marines in rifle-shooting and exercise, and _any_
of the crew in sword, pistol and pike use; if my creditors
pursue me there, I could draw for the balance of £.900, to
silence some of them (I mean after taking from £.1,500, £.200,
to refund to you, in case you now oblige me with an advance,
and £.400, to protect my securities for the rules); and if
this cannot be completed with the Colonel time enough, and for
which reason I flatter myself that you will assist me with
your friendly interference, I see but one mode, that of going
abroad the moment I find my creditors hostile; for although I
may find £.350 to £.400, to pay the rules, I cannot find means
in haste to satisfy the rest, although I have offered to
assign considerable properties. In the latter case, might I
not from abroad proceed to America, there to join the Admiral,
as a volunteer, and at my own risk.
"Forgive my anxious and tedious suggestions, which your own
feeling heart, and friendly interest in my future successes,
have in some degree courted, and grant me your pardon for not
attending to your good humoured hint about long letters. Even
should you refuse my request, in regard to the £.200, I shall
be thankful for your reply; but if it should convey your
consent, the sum shall immediately be employed towards the
honest but hazardous service of your country, although it
hesitates by proper rank, and otherwise to encourage my loyal,
and I trust zealous endeavours. Forgive the sound but frank
style of this letter, owing to disappointments which would be
intolerable, if the recollection of your kindness did not curb
and relieve him, who must ever gratefully subscribe himself
with unalterable esteem,
dear Sir,
your faithful and obliged,
humble servant,
_C. R. De Berenger_."
To the
Hon. Cochrane Johnstone,
&c. &c. &c.
P.S. Apropos.--You have paid me £.50. on account;--may I
trouble you to tender my most respectful assurances to Miss
J.; that I hope most sincerely to hear that her indisposition
discontinues. Should you no longer want the books, perhaps
the bearer may bring them. Will lowness of spirits be received
as an apology for this slovenly letter and crippled sheet?
_Lord Ellenborough._ This does not appear to have come by the twopenny
post?
_Mr. Park._ No my Lord; but there is an indorsement upon it.
_Lord Ellenborough._ De Berenger was in the King's Bench; he had not
servants to send with it?
_Mr. Park._ Yes, my Lord; it is sworn to by the Davidsons, that he had a
man and a woman servant.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Probably he sent one of them, as you propose to
call them, perhaps they may prove that.
_Mr. Scarlett._ There is a reference in that letter to an assignment of
some property that De Berenger had?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was such an assignment prepared at your office?
_A._ It was; it was an assignment from Mr. De Berenger to Colonel
Kennedy.
_Q._ What was the subject of the assignment?
_A._ It was an assignment of a share of a patent.
_Mr. Gurney._ We are getting so very wide of evidence, that I must
object, which I am very loth to do.
_Mr. Scarlett._ There was something referred to, that might be a
security to Mr. Johnstone.
_Lord Ellenborough._ That refers to something which is the real thing;
that is all you can prove by this witness.
_A._ Yes, it does, my Lord.
_Mr. Scarlett._ Mr. Johnstone having written you that letter which has
been read, to ask your opinion about De Berenger, did you state to him
what was your opinion, as to his power of extricating himself?
_A._ I had some conversation with Mr. Johnstone, as I had had several
times.
_Q._ In consequence of the letter which has just been read?
_A._ Yes; I replied to the letter shortly, and I had conversation with
him in consequence.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Do you know whether Mr. Johnstone made any answer
to the letter?
_A._ To the Baron? I really do not.
_Mr. Scarlett._ Is that your answer to Mr. Johnstone? (_shewing a letter
to the witness._)
_A._ Yes, it is.
_Mr. Scarlett._ If your Lordship will allow that to be read.
_Lord Ellenborough._ When did you write that?
_A._ I wrote that the 23d of February, the day after I received the
letter.
_Q._ It is addressed to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.
_A._ It was sent to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.
_Q._ How came your answer to be in your hands?
_Mr. Scarlett._ It was handed over by us just now; it was given me by
Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's attorney.
[_The letter was read, as follows:_]
"My dear Sir,
"In reply to your favour of yesterday, I beg to inform you,
that the only sum I have paid the Baron on your account, since
you advanced him the £.50, is a trifle of about £.7 or £.8,
which he paid for the printing of the prospectus's of
Vittoria. You are very kind in assisting him so much; I have
done it till my purse is empty; but had it been otherwise, I
would still have assisted him to the extent of my means,
notwithstanding the little foolish difference between us.
"I will attend to your wishes respecting the annuities, I will
settle with Dawson and Wrattislaw as speedily as possible.
"The Wendover business is proceeding; but I am awkwardly
circumstanced, not having all the documents before me; in Lady
M. L. Crawford's business I should wish to attend with you on
the spot. Pray excuse haste
I am, dear sir,
your's faithfully
_Gabl Tahourdin_."
Temple,
23d Feb. 1814.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Where is the cover of this letter: the cover should
be produced, for letters of this sort may be written after their date,
and one wishes to have some external thing that cannot deceive; there is
no post-mark to any of these letters.
_Mr. Scarlett._ Did you write that letter on the day of which it bears
date?
_A._ Yes, I did; it was not sent by the post, I believe; I cannot charge
my memory, whether it was or not?
_Q._ I see there is a lady alluded to, Lady Mary Crawford Lindsey; was
she a tenant to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ No, she was not a tenant; she had purchased a house of his.
_Q._ There was a business to settle with her?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Do you know the fact, that in consequence of this correspondence
which has been read, Mr. Johnstone did pay Mr. De Berenger any sum of
money?
_A._ Only from the parties having acknowledged, the one the having paid
it, and the other the having received it.
_Q._ You were not present when the money was paid?
_A._ No, I was not.
_Q._ Was there any receipt taken for the money?
_A._ Yes, there was.
_Q._ Did you take the receipt?
_A._ No, I did not.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did you see it at the time of the receipt?
_A._ There were two receipts at the time.
_Q._ Do you know of its existence, by seeing it at the time when it
purports to bear date?
_A._ A little afterwards; a few days afterwards.
_Q._ When did you first see it?
_A._ A few days afterwards; I really believe the £.50 receipt I handed
myself to Mr. Johnstone, but I cannot charge my memory with it.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You saw it in the month of February, or when?
_A._ The £.50 receipt, which was in September or October, I believe I
handed over to Mr. Johnstone myself; the other I did not.
_Mr. Scarlett._ When did you first see the other receipt; was it in
February?
_A._ I think within two or three days after it was given.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Have you both the receipts there?
_Mr. Scarlett._ We have, my Lord.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Then hand them in, if he proves that he saw them
about the date?
_A._ This receipt of the 20th of September 1813, I handed myself over to
Mr. Johnstone.
[_It was read, as follows._]
"London, Septr 20, 1813.
"Received of the Honble Cochrane Johnstone, the sum of fifty
pounds (by the hands of Gabl Tahourdin, Esq.) on account of
large plans, &c.
"_C. Random De Berenger._"
----------
£.50 -- --
----------
_Mr. Scarlett._ You have another receipt in your hands, that bears date
the 26th of February?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ That money did not pass through your hands?
_A._ No.
_Q._ When did you first see that receipt?
_A._ In three or four days afterwards, when Mr. Johnstone called upon
me; Mr. De Berenger and I were not at that time upon favourable terms;
that will account for my not having delivered it over to him.
[_It was read, as follows._]
"London, February the 26th, 1814.
"Received of the Honble A. Cochrane Johnstone, the sum of two
hundred pounds, being the balance of some drawings, plans and
prospecti, delivered.
"_C. R. De Berenger._"
-----------
£.200 -- --
-----------
_Mr. Scarlett._ I observe, that in that correspondence there is mention
made, besides the payment of £.250 of a loan of £.200?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Were you present at the passing of any money?
_A._ No, I was not.
_Q._ When did you first see that paper? (_handing one to the witness._)
_A._ I saw it at the same time with the last receipt for £.200.
_Q._ What is it?
_A._ A note of hand for £.200.
_Q._ You saw that two or three days after it bears date?
_A._ Yes, I did.
[_It was read as follows._]
£.200 -- --
----------- "London, February the 26th, 1814.
"Six Months after date, I promise to pay to the Honble A.
Cochrane Johnstone, the sum of two hundred pounds.
"_C. R. De Berenger._"
Payable at Gabl Tahourdin, Esq.
No 8, King's Bench Walk, Temple.
_Mr. Scarlett._ With respect to those letters you received from Mr.
Johnstone, do they contain your indorsement upon the back of them?
_A._ I think they do.
_Q._ Is that your handwriting upon the back of that letter? (_shewing it
to the witness._)
_A._ It is.
_Q._ Was it written by you at the time you received it?
_A._ Yes.
_Lord Ellenborough._ What letter is that?
_A._ The letter of the Baron to Mr. Johnstone, of the 22d of February.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You wrote it on the same day?
_A._ I cannot say on the same day, but within a few days; when I doubled
up the papers that lay on the table, with other documents.
_Mr. Scarlett._ Is it your habit, when you lay letters by, to endorse
the date.
_A._ Yes, uniformly; but not on the day of receiving them; I let them
lie till they accumulate unpleasantly.
_Lord Ellenborough._ If a man sends you letters enclosed from other
persons, do you indorse the letters sent to you inclosed; that is no
part of the correspondence with you?
_A._ No, it is not.
_Q._ Then I should apprehend, you would not usually do it?
_A._ I have done it differently; I have said "De Berenger to Johnstone."
_Q._ But you give it a date?
_A._ I have dated it above those words, as usual.
_Q._ When you receive a letter, you authenticate the period of receiving
it, but not the date of a letter received by another.
_A._ I generally do; I enclose it in the letter to which it refers.
_Mr. Scarlett._ Was it so done in this instance?
_A._ It was.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Have you any letter-book?
_A._ I do not keep a letter-book; but I keep my letters very regularly
tied up.
_Mr. Scarlett._ You have heard the contents of the letter from De
Berenger to Mr. Johnstone read.
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ That refers to some documents in your hands, to serve as a security
to Mr. Johnstone, in case he should require them?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Is it your usual practice, when letters of that sort are sent to
you, to make the sort of endorsement you have done when you lay the
letters by?
_A._ It is.
_Lord Ellenborough._ I only asked him as to the inclosure. If I received
a letter, I should endorse the date of my receiving it as authenticating
the fact; but I should not put the endorsement of the date upon the
enclosure, for I know nothing of the date, whether it was received on
that day or not; the gentlemen of the jury know whether that is the
habit of business or not.
_A Juryman._ Is the date you have endorsed upon the enclosure, the date
of your receiving it or the date of the letter?
_A._ The date of the letter.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Certainly it is not regular to authenticate the
date of a letter, to which you are not privy; that is all my observation
upon it.
_Mr. Scarlett._ Besides those plans you now produce, do you know whether
there were other and subordinate plans drawn for the details of that
same scheme?
_A._ Yes, there were.
[_Examined by Mr. Park._]
_Q._ You have been a great while the attorney of Mr. De Berenger, and
known to him?
_A._ Five or six years.
_Q._ Were you known to him before you were known to Mr. Cochrane
Johnstone?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you become security for the Rules for this gentleman before you
knew Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ Some months.
_Q._ Then it was not at Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's desire that you became
a surety for the Rules for this person?
_A._ Certainly not.
_Q._ Was Mr. Cochrane, who, I understand from Mr. Brushoft, was your
co-surety, any relation of Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ No.
_Lord Ellenborough._ That has been proved over and over again; nobody
made an observation upon it.
_Mr. Park._ I beg your Lordship's pardon; there could be no other
motive, I conceive, in calling Mr. Brushoft.
_Lord Ellenborough._ I understood him to be called to prove, that Mr.
Tahourdin was a surety for the defendant; I never heard an observation
made upon Mr. Cochrane, as being a relation.
_Mr. Park._ Are you acquainted with the hand-writing of your client, Mr.
De Berenger?
_A._ Perfectly.
_Q._ That letter, or those letters lying before his Lordship, which have
been proved, I think you say they are his hand-writing?
_A._ There is only one.
_Q._ Have you ever seen that letter before you saw it yesterday?
(_handing to the witness the letter sent to Admiral Foley._)
_A._ Never; I just saw it yesterday, and that was all.
_Q._ Upon the knowledge you have of the hand-writing of Mr. De Berenger,
is that, in your judgment, the hand-writing of Mr. De Berenger or not?
_A._ Certainly not.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Be upon your guard.
_Mr. Park._ Be upon your guard, and look at it attentively. You have
many times seen and read his letters?
_A._ A thousand times, and received a thousand letters from him.
_Q._ And you do not believe it to be his hand-writing?
_A._ I do not indeed; it is not his hand-writing.
_Lord Ellenborough._ That is the Dover letter?
_Mr. Park._ Yes it is, my Lord. If your Lordship will look at that and
the other letter, you will see a marked difference.
[_The witness compared the two letters._]
_Lord Ellenborough._ The gentleman may look at the two letters; but that
furnishes no argument, for a person would certainly write a disguised
hand at that time, if ever he did in his life. This gentleman does not
go on belief that it is not, but he swears positively that it is not his
hand-writing.
_Mr. Park._ Certainly, my Lord; and there is, on the other side, only
Mr. Lavie. This gentleman having seen Mr. De Berenger write a thousand
times, and received a thousand letters from him. Do you, in your
judgment and conscience believe, that that is a disguised hand of Mr. De
Berenger?
_A._ I do not.
_A Juryman._ Why did you take the two letters up to compare the two
hand-writings, if you had no doubt in your mind?
_A._ I had no doubt at all of it.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Why did you compare the two then?
_A._ I wished to be circumspect; but if my life rested upon it, I
should say, this is not his hand-writing, according to my belief and
judgment.
_Mr. Park._ What has been, for the number of years you have known this
person, his general character?
_A._ I have always considered him a man of strict honour and integrity.
_Q._ We have heard he has been in difficulties?
_A._ He has been.
_Q._ And he is a debtor of yours?
_A._ Yes, he is a very large one.
_Q._ To what amount have you trusted him?
_A._ To the extent, I believe, of about £.4,000, and upwards, besides my
professional claim.
_Lord Ellenborough._ In money.
_A._ Yes, in money.
_Mr. Gurney._ I only want to ask Mr. Wood as to this road book. I
believe it has been identified before.
_Lord Ellenborough._ That was put in yesterday.
_Mr. Jones._ I had it yesterday in my hands; it was put in by Mr. Wood.
_Mr. Gurney._ I wish to shew Mr. Tahourdin the hand-writing in that
book.
_Lord Ellenborough._ The hand-writing in that road book certainly was as
extremely like the Dover letter as ever I saw any thing in my life.
[_The road book was handed to Mr. Tahourdin._]
_Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney._
_A._ Have the goodness to look at that pencil-writing in that road book;
do you believe it to be Mr. De Berenger's hand-writing.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Now be upon your guard.
_Mr. Gurney._ Look at both pages.
[_The witness examined it._]
_A._ Some of it appears to be more like his hand-writing than the other
part.
_Q._ Do not you believe it all to be his hand-writing?
_A._ No, I do not indeed.
_Q._ How much of it do you believe to be his hand-writing.
_Lord Ellenborough._ State the parts where you think the likeness ends,
and where you think somebody else has taken up the pencil and written a
part of it.
_A._ That looks more like his hand-writing [_pointing it out_] but it is
not the general writing of Mr. De Berenger.
_Mr. Gurney._ How much of it do you believe to be his writing?
_A._ Some part of it looks more like his writing than other part.
_Q._ Is there any part which you believe is not?
_A._ The writing part is not at all like his writing.
_Q._ I ask you as to nothing but the writing part?
_A._ Some are figures.
_Q._ Looking at those two pages, you say it is not all his hand-writing?
_A._ No, I do not think I did.
_Q._ That was your first answer?
_Lord Ellenborough._ You said "There is some more like his hand-writing,
but I do not believe it all is."
_Mr. Gurney._ How much is there of it that you do not believe to be his
writing.
_A._ Some of the letters look like his hand-writing.
_Q._ How much or how little of it do you think to be his hand-writing?
_A._ The smaller parts look like his hand-writing.
_Q._ Now I ask you upon your oath, have you any doubt of the whole of
those two pages having been written by the same hand?
_A._ Upon my word it is difficult to say.
_Q._ Not at all so; I have looked at it attentively, and I know it is
not difficult to say; do not you believe it all written by the same
hand?
[_The witness examined it again._]
_Lord Ellenborough._ You can say whether you believe it to be De
Berenger's hand-writing?
_A._ Upon my word, I really do not know what to say.
_Mr. Gurney._ I am quite content with that answer?
_Lord Ellenborough._ Mr. Park, would you like to look the Dover letter?
_Mr. Park._ I am no judge of hand-writing, my Lord.
_Lord Ellenborough._ That may be a concealed hand-writing, and I should
think it extremely likely.
_Mr. Park._ I mean to call other witnesses to this; I have nothing to
conceal in this case?
_Lord Ellenborough._ No; you announced to us that you flatly contradict
the whole of the story as to Mr. De Berenger.
_Mr. Park._ Yes, I do my Lord; I observe this is all pencilling which
has been shewn to you?
_A._ Yes, it is.
_Mr. Park._ Is this pencil writing in the same kind of character that a
man writes when he writes with pen and ink; are you enabled to say from
your knowledge of the hand-writing, whether it is or is not?
_A._ That it is which puzzles me more than any thing, its being in
pencil.
_A Juryman._ We should like to see that road book.
_Mr. Park._ Does your Lordship think the jury have a right to see that;
they cannot take it for the purpose of comparing with any thing else?
_Lord Ellenborough._ It is in evidence, being found in the desk of the
defendant, they may look at each, if they please.
_General Campbell, sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Brougham._
_Q._ Do you know Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ I do.
_Q._ Did you meet him in the month of September or October last, at a
meeting or hunt in Scotland?
_A._ I met him the second week, I think in last October, at the Perth
meeting.
_Q._ Did he at that time shew you some plans and prospectus of the new
place of amusement, in the nature of a Ranelagh?
_A._ I saw in Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's hands, the prospectus of a new
public place, he called it, to be erected in the Regent's Park, or the
neighbourhood of the Regent's Park.
_Q._ Do you recollect the name he gave to it?
_A._ I think he called it Vittoria.
_Q._ Will you look at the prospectus, and see whether that is the same?
[_The prospectus was shewn to the witness._]
_A._ I believe this is a copy of the same that I saw.
_Q._ Look at the plan?
_A._ He did not shew me the plan.
_Q._ Did he shew this prospectus, and communicate to other persons at
that meeting upon the subject of it, as well as you?
_A._ I cannot speak to that; he communicated to me in my own apartment
or his own, I cannot recollect which.
[_Mr. Hopper was called, but did not answer._]
_Mr. Serjeant Best._ This gentleman was taken very ill, being kept here
last night; if he comes by and by, I trust your Lordship will permit him
to be examined out of his turn.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Certainly, at any period.
_Mr. Serjeant Best._ That is the case of the three defendants for whom I
appear.
_The Right Honourable the Earl of Yarmouth sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Park._
_Q._ You are I believe, or were, the Colonel of the Duke of Cumberland's
sharp-shooters?
_A._ Lieutenant-colonel commandant.
_Q._ It is called the corps of sharp-shooters?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Captain De Berenger was adjutant of that regiment, was he not?
_A._ He was a non-commissioned officer, acting adjutant.
_Q._ How long have you known Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ Ever since a few days after I was elected to command that corps;
that was in the beginning of the year 1811; I cannot fix the day, very
early in that year I know it was.
_Q._ Has your Lordship had opportunities of seeing Mr. De Berenger
write, or of receiving letters from him, and of acting upon those
letters from him.
_A._ I have received a great many letters from him, and have seen him
write occasionally.
_Q._ And you have seen him, probably, on the subject of the contents of
those letters?
_A._ Very frequently; two or three times I have seen him alter the
regimental orders, and have received very many letters from him.
_Q._ Are you, from that opportunity that you have described, in a
capacity to state to his Lordship and the jury, whether you are
acquainted with his character of hand-writing?
_A._ As well as I am with that of any other gentleman with whom I have
been in the habit of correspondence.
_Q._ Then, not knowing what your Lordship's answer may be, I will
trouble your Lordship to look at that.--[_The letter sent to Admiral
Foley was handed to his Lordship._]
_A._ I will read it through, if you please.--[_His lordship read the
letter._]
_Q._ Supposing you had heard none of the circumstances which this trial
has brought to every body's ears, and of which your Lordship has heard
so much yesterday; from the character of the hand-writing of Mr. De
Berenger, should you have believed it to be his hand-writing?
_A._ Certainly not.
_Q._ Your lordship, I believe, knows that in the month of July, this
gentleman was very urgent and solicitous to go out as a sharp-shooter to
America, with Sir Alexander and afterwards with Lord Cochrane?
_A._ He mentioned to me one day, when he came to me on the business of
the corps----
_Q._ Was that in January?
_A._ I think so; but I cannot swear to the date; he mentioned to me,
that he had very nearly arranged to go out, to drill the crew and the
marines on board of the Tonnant. I thought he mentioned it in a way to
suggest, that he wished some little additional influence, and I got rid
of the thing.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ The writing of that is larger than Mr. De Berenger usually writes?
_A._ Certainly, it is longer.
_Q._ The character of the letters is longer?
_A._ Oh, certainly; it is a very round small hand he generally writes,
and a very pretty hand.
_Q._ Will your lordship look at that letter, and tell me, whether you
received that letter at or about the time that it bears date? (_shewing
a letter to his lordship._)
_A._ Yes; either the day it bears date, or the day immediately after it.
_Mr. Gurney._ I request Mr. Law will mark that letter; the date of it is
March the 19th?
_A._ I believe I marked the cover.
_Q._ Will your lordship have the goodness to look at the hand-writing in
that road book (_shewing it to his lordship_); that I believe is larger
than Mr. De Berenger's usual writing, is it not?
_A._ I think it is; some part certainly does not look larger; it is less
round--it is more angular.
_Q._ Does your lordship or not, believe that to be Mr. De Berenger's
hand-writing?
_A._ I am not sufficiently conversant with hand-writing, to wish to
swear to an opinion either way.
_Re-examined by Mr. Park._
_Q._ That is in pencil?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ With respect to the letter in question, although it is of a larger
description than Mr. De Berenger's usual writing, does it appear to your
lordship to be at all a feigned hand, as disguising the real hand?
_A._ Another question to which I am not competent to give an answer; if
I was to look through the letter--there is one letter which creates a
suspicion, but I should never have suspected it on a cursory view of the
letter; it is the letter R before Du Bourg, but that I should have never
looked at or suspected; that looks more like his hand-writing than any
other part; it looks like the way in which he makes the R of Random.
_Q._ Does your lordship mean the large capital R, or the little r?
_A._ The large capital R is the only letter I can see that looks in the
least like his hand.
_Q._ Your judgment upon that letter, upon the whole inspection of it,
is, that it is not his hand-writing?
_A._ I should never suspect it, except from that letter.
_Lord Ellenborough._ It is a larger character?
_A._ Yes, it is a fuller character.
_Q._ It is a stiffer character, and more upright?
_A._ It is less upright, I think, than his; it is more angular and
longer.
_Lord Ellenborough._ That is his usual writing, is it not? (_shewing
another letter to the witness._)
_A._ Oh, yes; certainly, I am perfectly familiar with that.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You are certainly borne out in your observation
upon the letter; look at that letter R again?
_A._ It struck me on reading the letter.
_Q._ In what manner an artificial letter may be written, so as to
disable a person from saying whether it is the hand-writing of a certain
person, you cannot say?
_A._ I am perfectly incompetent, as I informed your lordship and the
jury before, to give any judgment upon that.
_Q._ What is the uniform of your corps?
_A._ The uniform is, the waistcoat green, with a crimson cape.
_Q._ A bottle green, is it not?
_A._ Some have got it a little darker than others, but it should be a
deep bottle-green with a crimson collar; the great coat is a waistcoat
with black fur round it, consequently no crimson collar.
_Q._ The body in your uniform is not red?
_A._ It is deep bottle green.
_A Juryman._ A jacket or coat?
_A._ It is a waistcoat, very like the light-horse uniform.
_Lord Ellenborough._ It is almost unnecessary to ask you, whether the
members of your corps wear any decorations; a star or a cross?
_A._ When in uniform, some wear medals that they have gained as prizes
given by the corps; they occasionally wear them hanging by a ribband.
_Q._ You wear no such decorations as this? (_shewing the star to his
lordship._)
_A._ No, certainly not.
_Q._ Supposing a gentleman appeared before you in an aid-de-camp's
uniform, with that star upon his breast, and that other ornament
appendant, should you consider that was a man exhibiting himself in the
dress of your sharp-shooting corps?
_A._ Certainly not.
_Q._ If a sharp-shooter belonging to your corps presented himself to you
in that dress, you would think it a very impertinent thing?
_A._ Certainly.
_Mr. Serjeant Best._ As Lord Yarmouth has been called by the defendant,
De Berenger, and has given evidence which may affect Lord Cochrane, we
conceive, we submit we have a right to make an observation upon it.
_A Juryman._ If Colonel De Berenger had appeared before your lordship in
the uniform of his corps, would it have been any thing extraordinary?
_A._ Nothing extraordinary; it would have been more military that he
should do so, though I never exacted it.
_Captain Sir John Poo Beresford, sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ Are you acquainted with Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ I have seen him twice in my life before yesterday.
_Q._ Have you had any occasion to see him write, or to be acquainted
with the character of his hand-writing?
_A._ Never.
_Q._ Do you know at any time in the early part of this year, or the
latter end of the last, of any applications he was making to go to
America as a sharp-shooter?
_A._ I will tell you the part I took in reference to that business. In
the beginning of February, I paid my ship off; after that, I met Mr.
Cochrane Johnstone in town, who told me Sir Alexander Cochrane was very
anxious he should go out in the Tonnant, to teach the marines the
rifle-exercise. I went to the Horse Guards to ask whether anything could
be done; I was told it would be useless to apply to the Duke of York;
and I told Mr. Cochrane Johnstone of it the day after. I was dressing
before breakfast, and Mr. De Berenger sent up to say, that he was very
much obliged to me for the part I had taken.
_Q._ At what time was this?
_A._ I think, the beginning of February; but before Sir Alexander
Cochrane sailed, I met him at Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's, with Admiral
Hope and some ladies; I think that was in January, or the latter end of
December; there were, I think, fourteen of us, some of them ladies. This
application was after he had sailed. When I went to Mr. Cochrane
Johnstone's, I was to have met Sir Alexander Cochrane, but he went to
dine somewhere else, and my Lord Cochrane came in after dinner; he did
not dine there, but a great many of the family did.
_James Stokes sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Park._
_Q._ I understand you are a clerk of Mr. Tahourdin, the attorney.
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ How long have you been so?
_A._ Between three and four years.
_Q._ Have you, in the course of those three or four years, had frequent
opportunities of seeing the hand-writing of Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ Daily.
_Q._ He has been a client of your master, and has been assisted very
much by him?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Have you seen him write, as well as seeing letters purporting to
come from him?
_A._ A great deal.
_Q._ Be so good as to look at that paper (_the Dover letter_), and tell
his lordship and the jury, whether in your judgment and belief, that is
the hand-writing of Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ Certainly not.
_Q._ Look at that, and say whether you think it is a feigned hand, but
still the hand-writing of De Berenger?
_A._ It certainly is not.
_Q._ Of course, a man can only speak to belief and judgment when he does
not see a thing written; do you believe, from your knowledge of his
hand-writing, that that is his writing, either feigned or real?
_A._ Not a word of it.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Look at the letter R in the signature?
_A._ It is not like it at all.
_Mr. Park._ I mean the large R.
_A._ The capital R is nothing like it.
_Mr. Park._ It is a singular R certainly, it looks as if it had been
intended for a P and made into an R.
_Lord Ellenborough._ It is not at all like that R, is it? [_shewing
another letter to the witness._]
_A._ No, I do not think it is any thing like that.
_William Smith sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ You are servant to Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ How long have you been his servant?
_A._ About three years and a half.
_Q._ Do you write yourself?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ During the time you have been in his service, have you seen him
write, and become acquainted with his hand-writing.
_A._ A great deal of it.
_Q._ Is he a gentleman who writes a good deal?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Are you well acquainted with the character of his hand-writing?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Have the goodness to look that over, and then I will ask you a
question respecting it, and among other things look at the signature at
the bottom, R. Du Bourg.--[_The letter sent to Admiral Foley was handed
to the witness, and he examined it._]
_Mr. Park._ Having examined that paper, is that, in your judgment and
belief, the hand-writing of your master, Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ I really believe it is not.
_Q._ The whole, or any part of it.
_A._ None of it.
_Q._ Have you any doubt of that?
_A._ I am positively sure it is not his hand-writing.
_Q._ According to the best of your judgment and belief?
_A._ According to the best of my judgment and belief.
_Q._ You have been his servant three years and a half?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ We understand he has lately lodged with a person of the name of
Davidson, in a place called the Asylum Buildings.
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Were you with him till he went away in the month of February?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ That was on Sunday the 27th, was it not?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Do you remember, whether he was at home on the Sunday preceding
that, that would be the 20th?
_A._ I perfectly remember it.
_Q._ Did he sleep at home on the Saturday night?
_A._ He did.
_Q._ Did he go out at any time on Sunday morning?
_A._ He did.
_Q._ Do you remember at what time?
_A._ About nine o'clock.
_Q._ Did he come in again after that?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ And go out again?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ About what time was that.
_A._ It was near eleven when he came home, and he went out immediately
afterwards; he was not above a quarter of an hour or twenty minutes
before he returned again.
_Q._ Did he return again after that?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ How soon after?
_A._ About twenty minutes.
_Q._ Would that be after persons were gone to church that he returned?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ How long did he stay at home then?
_A._ Till about four o'clock.
_Q._ He went out again about four o'clock?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Were you at home at the time he went out again, about four o'clock?
_A._ I was over the way.
_Q._ Did you see him?
_A._ Yes; I had the dogs out, and was leaning with my back against the
rail when he came down.
_Q._ Your master's dogs?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ He kept dogs, did he?
_A._ Only one; one was mine; I was with them opposite, on the other side
of the road, leaning against the rail facing the door.
_Q._ What were you doing with the dogs?
_A._ I generally take them out for occasions.
_Q._ Did you see him go out about that time?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ Did you yourself go out soon after that?
_A._ Yes I did, and my wife.
_Q._ About what time did you return home that evening?
_A._ About eleven o'clock, within a few minutes of eleven.
_Q._ Was your master at home when you returned or not?
_A._ He was not at home.
_Q._ Did he come home afterwards?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ About what time?
_A._ I had not been at home, I suppose five minutes, before my master
came home.
_Q._ That would be a few minutes before or after eleven?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did he sleep at home that night.
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What means have you of knowing that?
_A._ The means I have were these; after I came home we were down in the
kitchen taking our supper, my master was in the drawing-room before we
had got to bed, I heard him going up stairs to his bed-room, he passed
my room door; that was not above half past eleven.
_Q._ Did he breakfast at home the next morning, or not.
_A._ No, he did not.
_Q._ Did you see him the next morning early?
_A._ No.
_Q._ About what time did you see him the next day?
_A._ About three o'clock; I cannot speak to a minute or two.
_Q._ Did you hear or see him go out?
_A._ I did not.
_Q._ You saw him about three o'clock on the Monday?
_A._ Yes, I did.
_Q._ Who made his bed?
_A._ My wife.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ Did you let him in?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You opened the door to him?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ At a little after eleven, that night?
_A._ Yes, thereabouts, it might be a little before, or a little after.
_Q._ He gave a good loud knock at the door, in his usual way?
_A._ He rapped as usual.
_Q._ And his usual rap was a loud one?
_A._ Not over loud.
_Q._ Not very gentle?
_A._ Between.
_Q._ Between loud and gentle?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ And he slept at home that night?
_A._ I cannot say that he slept, he went to his bed-room, and the bed
when I went in the morning looked as if he had slept in it.
_Q._ Did you see him in bed the next morning?
_A._ No, I did not, I heard him go into the bed room.
_Q._ You did not see him the next day till three o'clock?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Did you write that letter to Lord Yarmouth? (_shewing a letter to
the witness._)
_A._ I did.
_Q._ Of your own head?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ No body furnished you with any draught to write from?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Have you your master's military great coat here?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ His military grey great coat?
_A._ Yes; not in this present place.
_Q._ It is at Guildhall?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Now attend to this question, have you not acknowledged that your
master slept from home that night?
_A._ Never.
_Q._ Have you not acknowledged it to Mr. Murray?
_A._ Never.
_Q._ I give you notice he is here?
_A._ I know he is.
_Q._ Now I ask you, did you not on Monday the 21st, tell Mr. or Mrs.
Davidson, or both, that coming home, and not finding your master at
home, you had left the key for him at the usual place in the area, that
he might let himself in?
_A._ I did not tell them so, upon my oath.
_Q._ Neither of them?
_A._ No, neither of them.
_Q._ Did you tell Mr. or Mrs. Davidson that on any other day; did you
ever tell them so?
_A._ No, not to the best of my knowledge.
_Q._ To the best of your knowledge?
_A._ I never told them so.
_Q._ As you did not attend your master on the Monday morning, who
attended him and brought him his shaving things, and gave him the usual
attendance of a gentleman?
_A._ He never has any attendance; I never go to his bed room till about
half past eight, and sometimes he is up, and sometimes not.
_Q._ Do you mean to say, he is a gentleman that wants no attendance?
_A._ Yes; he cleans his teeth, and washes himself and powders his hair,
without my being in his bed room.
_Q._ He does not usually ring his bell in a morning, I suppose, doing
without attendance?
_A._ Not before he comes down to breakfast.
_Q._ What time does he usually come down to breakfast?
_A._ At different hours.
_Q._ What is his usual hour?
_A._ Sometimes nine, sometimes ten, sometimes eight.
_Q._ Till he comes down, he does not ring for you?
_A._ Very seldom.
_Q._ He is a very quiet, a remarkably quiet man in his lodging?
_A._ I never knew him to be otherwise.
_Q._ Not a person walking about, or making a noise of any kind?
_A._ Not making any disturbance; he walks about very much.
_Q._ Your master finally left his lodgings on Sunday the 27th.
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Do you remember your paying or changing a fifty-pound note with a
Mr. Seeks?
_A._ I do.
_Q._ From whom did you receive that fifty-pound note?
_A._ Mr. De Berenger.
_Q._ On what day did you receive that?
_A._ On the 27th, I think it was.
_Q._ On the Sunday?
_A._ Yes; I think it was.
_Q._ The day he went away?
_A._ Yes; I think it was.
_Q._ When he went away, he took his things to the Angel Inn, St.
Clements.
_A._ I took them for him.
_Q._ For him to go into the country?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you receive no more than fifty pounds from him; did you not
also receive a twenty pound from him?
_A._ I did not; not the same day.
_Q._ What day did you receive that twenty pounds?
_A._ I cannot positively say.
_Q._ Was it a day or two before he went away?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you receive also a two pound from him?
_A._ I do not recollect.
_Q._ Did you receive and give to any person, of the name of Sophia,
thirteen pounds from him?
_A._ No; I gave none to Sophia.
_Q._ Did you see him give her any thing?
_A._ No, I did not; if I was in the room I did not notice it.
_Q._ Do you know any person of the name of Hebden, or Heberdine?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Do you remember, the day before your master finally went away, Mr.
Cochrane Johnstone calling with a letter?
_A._ I do not remember that; I was not at home.
_Q._ Upon your oath, did not a gentleman call there, who you told Mr.
Davidson was Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ Upon my oath I was not at home; she told me a gentleman called
there, and giving a description of him, I said, most likely it was Mr.
Cochrane Johnstone.
_Q._ You knew Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ Very little.
_Q._ But you did know him?
_A._ I once saw him.
_Q._ Did you not tell her on the Sunday, that if your master had been
at home on the Saturday, when Mr. Cochrane Johnstone brought that
letter, he would have gone off on the Saturday night?
_A._ I did not.
_Q._ Did you not on the Saturday or the Sunday?
_A._ I did not.
_Q._ Was your master at home all that week, from the 20th to the 27th?
_A._ He was not always at home.
_Q._ He was at home every day?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Going out as usual?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ On the 21st, for instance?
_A._ The 21st he went out to dine.
_Q._ Where did he go to?
_A._ I cannot positively say.
_Q._ Did he tell you where he was going to?
_A._ I do not recollect.
_Q._ Upon your oath, did he not tell you he had been to Mr. Cochrane
Johnstone's?
_A._ No.
_Q._ You swear that?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Nor that he was going there?
_A._ No.
_Q._ When you came home on the Monday, did you see any black coat in the
room?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ Was that your master's black coat, or a strange black coat?
_A._ A strange black coat.
_Q._ That black coat must have fitted your master vastly well?
_A._ I cannot say, I never saw it on.
_Q._ You brushed it, did not you?
_A._ Yes; but not on his back.
_Q._ You are used to brushing his coats?
_A._ Of course.
_Q._ Now, a servant used to brush his master's coat, must know the size
pretty well; this would be rather a short coat upon him, would it not?
_A._ No; I do not think it would.
_Q._ Upon your oath, would it not have been a great deal too long; was
not it the coat of a man six feet high?
_A._ I did not know who owned the coat.
_Q._ I did not ask you that; but was not that the coat of a gentleman
six feet high?
_A._ I do not know.
_Q._ You are not competent to say what sized man that would fit?
_A._ That coat would fit me very well; it is rather wide.
_Q._ Not at all too long for you?
_A._ No, not at all.
_Q._ You have seen Lord Cochrane, have not you?
_A._ Never in my life, to my knowledge.
_Q._ You have sworn some affidavits, have you not?
_A._ I have.
_Q._ Did you draw them yourself?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ Without any assistance?
_A._ Without any assistance.
_Q._ Whom had you seen before you drew them?
_A._ I cannot say who I saw, thousands.
_Q._ Upon that business?
_A._ No body.
_Q._ Before you made that affidavit, you had not seen any body upon that
business?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Not Lord Cochrane?
_A._ Never in my life.
_Q._ Nor Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Nor Mr. Tahourdin?
_A._ I saw Mr. Tahourdin, but he did not know of my making the
affidavits; I told Mr. Tahourdin of my master's absence; I went to tell
him.
_Q._ How soon was that after he left his lodgings?
_A._ I cannot positively say to a day.
_Lord Ellenborough._ What absence do you mean?
_A._ From the 27th.
_Mr. Gurney._ How soon after the 27th did you tell him?
_A._ About the 7th or 8th.
_Q._ Of March?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You swore your affidavit on the 24th of March?
_A._ Yes; but I drew it out before then.
_Q._ And that without any concert with any body whatever?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Merely for the vindication of your master's character?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ And when you had done it, what did you do with the affidavit?
_A._ I sent it to have it published.
_Q._ To whom did you send it?
_A._ I took it to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone. I found my master a very
injured gentleman.
_Q._ And therefore you took it to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, to be
published?
_A._ I did not take it to be published.
_Q._ You gave me those very words?
_A._ He did publish it.
_Q._ Did you not take it to be published?
_A._ I did not take it to the printer.
_Q._ Did you not take it to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, that it might be
published?
_A._ Yes.
_A Juryman._ Did your master breakfast at home on Monday the 21st of
February?
_A._ No, he did not.
_Re-examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ When was it that you first saw this black coat?
_A._ On the 21st of February.
_Q._ That was the Monday?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ That was after he came home, which you say was about three o'clock?
_A._ I came home about three o'clock.
_Q._ He was at home?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ He might have been at home before that?
_A._ Yes, he might.
_Q._ Does your master play on any musical instrument?
_A._ He was used to do.
_Lord Ellenborough._ I will ask any question upon that subject for you,
but there has been no question put on the cross-examination with
reference to it?
_Mr. Park._ There was a question about his being still.
_Lord Ellenborough._ There was no allusion to musical instruments; you
should have gone through it in your original examination, as it was to
contradict their case. Does your master play on any musical instrument?
_A._ Yes; both the bugle-horn and violin.
_Q._ You say Mrs. Davidson described to you a person who called, and
that you said it was most likely Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You had seen Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ Yes; I had seen him but once.
_Q._ This was on Saturday the 26th?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Why did you say it was most likely Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?
_A._ Because she told me it was a tall gentleman, and his long hair very
much powdered.
_Q._ Having seen him but once, and not being much acquainted with him,
what led you to say most likely it was Mr. Cochrane Johnstone; had you
any expectation that he would come that day?
_A._ No, not the least.
_Q._ But having seen him once, you thought it must be that tall man and
powdered, whom you had seen but once in your life?
_Q._ I might have seen him oftener than that, but not to my
recollection.
_Q._ What you said was, that you had seen him once?
_A._ I had seen him once, I know.
_Q._ Had you seen him oftener than that?
_A._ I cannot say; but I once saw him at his own house.
_Q._ I supposed you had never seen him but once from your answer?
_A._ I might have seen him oftener, but I do not know that I had.
_Q._ You are as sure as that you are existing, that your master went up
at eleven o'clock, or sometime after eleven, on Sunday evening the 20th
of February?
_A._ So help me God; I am sure he did.
_A Juryman._ Did you see him go up, or only hear him go up?
_A._ I heard him go up; I was in my bed room.
_Lord Ellenborough._ But you let him in?
_A._ Yes, I did.
_A Juryman._ You are sure that was on Sunday the 20th?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did your master often breakfast out?
_A._ Sometimes.
_Q._ Not often.
_A._ Not very often.
_Ann Smith sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Park._
_Q._ Are you the wife of Charles Smith?
_A._ Of William Smith.
_Q._ Were you a servant, with your husband, of Mr. De Berenger, in
February last?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Had you been so for any length of time?
_A._ Two years and a half.
_Q._ Do you recollect having seen him at home on Sunday the 20th of
February?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ In the forenoon?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Do you know what time he went out that morning?
_A._ About nine o'clock.
_Q._ When did he come in again?
_A._ Between ten and eleven o'clock.
_Q._ How long did he stay at home at that time?
_A._ Not a great while.
_Q._ He then went out again?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ When did you see him again?
_A._ He did not stay long.
_Q._ When did you and your husband go out that day?
_A._ Between four and five, after my master was gone out.
_Q._ What time did he go out?
_A._ About four o'clock.
_Q._ And you and your husband went out between four and five o'clock.
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ At what time did you and your husband return home that night?
_A._ About eleven, as near as I can guess.
_Q._ Was your master come home before you, or did he not return till
afterwards?
_A._ My husband came in a few minutes before my master, and went down to
strike a light, and I stopped to bring him some beer.
_Q._ Did your husband and you come home together?
_A._ Yes; only that I called at the public house for some beer; my
husband said he would go in, and strike a light.
_Q._ Did your master come in that evening?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you see him come in?
_A._ No, he was let in before I returned with the beer.
_Q._ You heard him up stairs?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Is it your custom yourself to see him in the evening; does he sup?
_A._ He takes a little supper, but I was never in the habit of carrying
it up stairs.
_Q._ Your husband does that?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did he carry it up that evening?
_A._ He had nothing but a bit of bread, and a glass of ale.
_Q._ You did not see him that night?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Was it your business, as the female servant of this gentleman, to
make his bed?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ At what time did you get up on the Monday morning?
_A._ About seven.
_Q._ Are you sure that the time we are speaking of, was the Sunday
morning before he finally went off?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you usually get up about seven?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ At what time did your master go out that morning?
_A._ He went out before breakfast.
_Q._ At what hour do you take that to be?
_A._ Before Smith went out; he went out about eight and my master went
out a little before him.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did you see him go out?
_A._ No.
_Mr. Park._ Did you hear him?
_A._ No, I did not know that he was out, till I let him in.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You did not know that he had been at all absent
from home on Monday, till you let him in?
_A._ No.
_Mr. Park._ Had you made the bed on the Sunday, the day you saw him go
out so many times in the morning?
_A._ Yes, I was up stairs making the bed, and he went out; I looked out
of the window, and saw him go.
_Q._ Did you, or not, make his bed on the Monday?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ At what time of the day did you make his bed?
_A._ Not till after my master came home; my master came home, and when I
found he had been out, I went up stairs immediately, and I made his bed.
_Q._ As you did not see your master on the Sunday night or Monday
morning, what was the last time upon the Sunday that you did in fact see
him; not that you believe him to be there, but that you saw him with
your own eyes?
_A._ I am not certain whether I saw him go out on the Sunday at four
o'clock, but I think I did.
_Q._ You say you made his bed after he came home on the Monday?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You let him in on the Monday, at twelve o'clock?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was the bed the same as it was to all appearance on other days?
_A._ Yes.
_Lord Ellenborough._ It appeared like a bed that had been slept in?
_A._ Yes.
_Mr. Park._ Had he been constantly sleeping in his own bed for several
months?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you sleep in that bed, that night?
_A._ No.
_Q._ I did not mean to ask you an improper question; but you did not
sleep in that bed; I meant no such insinuation as might be supposed?
_A._ I did not sleep in it.
_Q._ Did your husband sleep in that bed, and you in your own?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Did you and your husband sleep together that night?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Are you quite sure that you made the bed on the Sunday, and again
on the Monday?
_A._ I did; I am quite sure of that.
_Q._ Do you recollect how your master was dressed when he came home on
the Monday?
_A._ I do; he had a black coat on.
_Q._ Had he any thing in his hand?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What was it?
_A._ A bundle.
_Q._ Did you happen to see, while either it was in his hand, or
immediately on his laying it down, the contents of the bundle?
_A._ I saw a part of a coat where the bundle was open at the tie; a grey
coat, just where the knot was tied?
_Q._ Had your master a grey great coat?
_A._ Yes, he had.
_Q._ Had he had one for some time?
_A._ Yes; about a month, I believe.
_Q._ Did your master continue after that Monday to sleep regularly at
home, till he finally went away on the following Sunday?
_A._ Yes.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Bolland._
_Q._ Your master had no other servant but you and your husband?
_A._ No.
_Q._ In what capacity did he serve him?
_A._ As man-servant; he used to wait upon him, and do any thing that was
requisite to do.
_Q._ He waited upon him at dinner?
_A._ Yes; and at breakfast; he always used to carry it up; I never did
that, except when he was out.
_Q._ You did not know till your master came home, that he had been out
that morning?
_A._ No, I did not.
_Q._ Your husband went out about eight o'clock.
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was not Mr. De Berenger in the habit of ringing his bell in the
morning for breakfast?
_A._ After he came down he used to ring the drawing-room bell, and then
I used to carry it up, if my husband was out.
_Q._ Who supplied him in the morning with water, for the purpose of
shaving?
_A._ He never used warm water; he had water in his room.
_Q._ He never rang for your husband to attend him?
_A._ Sometimes he did; but he knew my husband was going out that
morning, and therefore he did not ring.
_Q._ Did it not appear to you extraordinary that morning, that there was
no call for breakfast till that hour?
_A._ Yes; I supposed my master had breakfasted out, of course, when he
came in.
_Q._ But you did not know of his going out?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Was not your surprize excited by his not ringing?
_A._ Yes; I was rather surprized that he had not rang.
_Q._ Do you recollect how he was dressed on the Sunday when he went out
last; you do not mean to say that you saw him go out at four o'clock?
_A._ I do not recollect.
_Q._ The last time when you saw him go out on Sunday, how was he
dressed?
_A._ He had on a black coat and waistcoat, and grey overalls.
_Q._ Of course, not seeing him on the Monday, you did not know in what
dress he went out that morning?
_A._ No.
_Q._ But you say he returned home in a black coat?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was that black coat his own?
_A._ That I cannot say.
_Q._ Was not that coat much too long for your master?
_A._ I did not observe it.
_Lord Ellenborough._ He did not come home in the same black coat he had
gone out in on the Sunday?
_A._ That I cannot tell; I was not in the habit of brushing his coat.
_Mr. Bolland._ Did you ever see Lord Cochrane?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Was not the coat that he came home in, on the Monday, so long, that
you recollect remarking it could not belong to him?
_A._ No, I did not remark that.
_Q._ Did you see the coat lie on the chair afterwards?
_A._ It might be there, but I did not observe it.
_Q._ What was in this bundle that he brought home?
_A._ I saw a part of a grey coat between the tie of the bundle.
_Q._ Did you make an affidavit upon this business?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ When was that?
_A._ The 24th of March.
_Q._ Who suggested to you the necessity of making the affidavit?
_A._ No body but my husband; it was his wish to make his, and he said,
therefore Ann do you make yours.
_Lord Ellenborough._ What did you see besides the grey coat in the
bundle?
_A._ I saw nothing but that.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Recollect yourself, because you have sworn you saw
a green uniform?
_A._ There might be a green uniform.
_Q._ Was there, or was there not?
_A._ Yes, there was a green uniform.
_Q._ Was it in the bundle or not?
_A._ Yes, it was in the bundle.
_Mr. Bolland._ Was there any thing extraordinary in your master going
out in his green drill dress?
_A._ No; not that I know of.
_Q._ Was he in the habit of going out in it?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ And of returning in it?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you ever know him go out in his green drill dress and come home
in a black coat?
_A._ No.
_Q._ That morning he had his green drill dress in his bundle, with his
great coat?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Your husband made an affidavit, and you made an affidavit as well
yourself?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Had you seen any body on the subject of that affidavit?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Had you seen Mr. Tahourdin?
_A._ No.
_Q._ How soon after or before making that affidavit, did you see Mr.
Tahourdin?
_A._ I saw Mr. Tahourdin a few days after.
_Q._ Did you know for what purpose your affidavit was made; how it was
to be used?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Do you know to whom it was taken; what did your husband do with it;
do you know of your own knowledge?
_A._ It was put in the papers, I know.
_Q._ Was it put in by him or by any body else?
_A._ I believe it was put in by him.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did Mr. De Berenger ever wear whiskers?
_A._ Yes, sometimes he used.
_Q._ How long before the 20th of February had you seen him wear
whiskers?
_A._ I do not know; I was so little in the habit of seeing my master,
that I do not know whether he had whiskers or not.
_Q._ You saw him come in at the door, did not you?
_A._ On the Monday morning.
_Q._ At times you used to see him?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Were you so little acquainted with the countenance of the man in
whose service you had lived two years and a half, that you did not know
whether he was a whiskered man or an unwhiskered man?
_A._ I never attended the door when my husband was at home.
_Q._ You used to go backwards and forwards; just before you did not know
whether there was a green coat in the bundle; and then when I put you in
mind of what you had sworn, you say positively there was?
_A._ Yes, there was.
_Q._ And now you mean to say, you saw so little of your master, that you
do not know whether he had whiskers?
_A._ No, I do not know.
_A Juryman._ You say you did not make your master's bed until his return
on Monday?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Did you see it before his return on Monday?
_A._ No; but he was not up stairs, he was in the drawing room.
_Q._ You did not see the bed till after his return?
_A._ No, I did not.
_John M'Guire, sworn;_
_Examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ I believe you are ostler at Smith's livery stables, at the Cross
Keys yard, Chelsea?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Were you acquainted with the person of Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was he in the habit of frequenting your master's stables, or that
neighbourhood?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Were you well acquainted with his person in the month of February
last?
_A._ Yes, I was.
_Q._ Do you remember seeing him upon the 20th of February?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ On a Sunday?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What makes you remember the day?
_A._ I remember the day perfectly well, on the account that I knew him
to be in the Rules of the King's Bench.
_Q._ How does that enable you to recollect the particular day?
_A._ Upon account, that I determined in my own mind, that I would ask
his servant the next time I saw him, whether he was out of the Rules.
_Q._ Before that time had he ever lived at Chelsea?
_A._ Yes, he had.
_Q._ And so you became acquainted with his person?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ On this 20th of February, at what time did you see him at Chelsea?
_A._ At a quarter past six.
_Q._ Where did you see him?
_A._ At Mr. Smith's stable-yard gateway.
_A Juryman._ A quarter past six in the morning or the evening?
_A._ The evening.
_Mr. Park._ Did any thing pass between you?
_A._ Yes; he asked me whether the coach was gone; I told him the six
o'clock coach was gone, but the seven would be ready in three quarters
of an hour.
_Q._ What further passed?
_A._ He made no more to do, but turned round and took his way to
London.
_Q._ Did he say any thing more?
_A._ He said it would not do to wait for the seven o'clock coach.
_Q._ And he set out on foot for London?
_A._ He did.
_Q._ This was about a quarter past six, you say?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Are you confident as to the day?
_A._ I am.
_Q._ And as to his person, you have no doubt about it?
_A._ No, not the least.
_Q._ Did any circumstance occur to call this to your recollection?
_A._ Yes; I mentioned it to my wife, when I went home that night.
_Q._ What induced you to mention it to her?
_A._ That I had seen Mr. De Berenger on that evening, at a quarter past
six.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You mentioned the time to her?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You mentioned particularly to her, that you had seen him at a
quarter past six?
_A._ I did.
_Mr. Richardson._ What induced you to mention the circumstance to your
wife?
_A._ Knowing that he was in the Rules of the Bench, and not having seen
him that way, from the time that he was in the Rules before.
_Q._ Did he go from that lodging he had in Chelsea, to the Rules of the
King's Bench?
_A._ Yes, he did.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Adolphus._
_Q._ How long had you known Mr. De Berenger before this?
_A._ I had known him about three years and a half; I was living at Mr.
Smith's yard at that time.
_Q._ And you had known him all that time?
_A._ I had.
_Q._ It was on the Sunday you saw him?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You knew him to be an officer in the corps of riflemen, did not
you?
_A._ Yes, I did.
_Q._ Perhaps you thought he was out on Sunday on military duty, or
something of that kind?
_A._ I did not know, but the answer my wife made, when I said that to
her was, that she supposed it was the same as it was at Edinburgh, and
that on the Sunday a person used to come and visit her aunt.
_Q._ I cannot see what makes you remember particularly that it was the
20th of February?
_A._ I had very good occasion for it.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did you write it down?
_A._ No, I cannot write.
_Q._ Did your wife put it down?
_A._ No; she cannot write neither.
_Mr. Adolphus._ How do you know it was on the 20th of February?
_A._ I can swear that was the day; on that day fortnight I saw his
servant, and that was the 6th of March, and I asked him, whether his
master was out of the Rules of the Bench? and he said, he was not; and I
said, I had seen him there; and he said, if he was there he did not know
any thing of it, nor his master was not out of the Rules of the Bench.
_Q._ He said that he was at home, in the Bench, then?
_A._ No, that was not his meaning; that he was not got out of the Rules
then, that he was not got clear of the Bench.
_Q._ The servant told you so on the 6th of March?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ That he was not out of the Rules of the Bench?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ That he was not on that day, the 6th of March?
_A._ Yes; that he did not know it if he was.
_Q._ He was quite surprised at hearing of it?
_A._ He did not seem in the least astonished, to me; I did not see him
take any notice.
_Q._ He told you he was in the Rules of the Bench, and he did not see
how he could come to Chelsea that day?
_A._ He told me he was not out of the Rules of the Bench, and if he came
to Chelsea, he did not know it.
_Q._ It was by the conversation with the servant, you fix the date?
_A._ No, I knew the date.
_Q._ On what do you found your recollection that it was on that day?
_A._ I know that was the day.
_Q._ The 13th of February he was within the Rules of the Bench, and
might have been at Chelsea?
_A._ No, it was not the 13th.
_Q._ How soon did you tell any body that you saw him on the 20th?
_A._ I told my wife that night.
_Q._ Your wife is here?
_A._ Yes, she is.
_Q._ How soon did you tell any body besides William Smith, the servant,
any thing about him?
_A._ I told no body but William Smith, and my wife.
_Q._ Not to this moment?
_A._ Yes, I did, when I was sent for.
_Q._ When was that?
_A._ Last Monday week.
_Q._ Then you were seen by the attorney, and examined about this matter?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was any body so particular as to ask you how this gentleman was
dressed, when you saw him on this Sunday?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Now I am so particular; will you tell me how he was dressed?
_A._ He had a black coat, and black waistcoat, and grey pantaloons or
overalls, but I will not say which.
_Q._ You have seen your old acquaintances, the two Smiths, here this
morning?
_A._ I have seen one of them this morning.
_Q._ Which was that?
_A._ William, the servant.
_Q._ Had you any conversation with him about the dress on this Sunday?
_A._ No.
_Q._ You know Mr. De Berenger very well?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did he wear whiskers on that Sunday?
_A._ No, he was close shaved upon that Sunday, I am certain.
_Re-examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ When you saw Mr. Smith, on the 6th of March, what question did you
ask him?
_A._ I asked him, whether his master was out of the Rules of the Bench?
that I had seen him on the Sunday fortnight, that he called at our yard,
to know if the coach was gone; that I told him, the six o'clock coach
was gone, but the seven o'clock coach would go in three quarters of an
hour.
_Q._ You related the circumstance that had passed on the 20th of
February, and then asked him, whether his master was out of the Rules of
the King's Bench?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What did he answer?
_A._ That his master was not out of the Rules, and that if he was at
Chelsea, it was more than he knew of.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You were struck with seeing him out of the Rules?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You thought it a very wrong thing of him?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ And being shocked at it, you had a mind to enquire of his servant,
whether he was within the Rules?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You did not say to him, Good God, Sir, how is it you are out of the
Rules on this Sunday?
_A._ He did not stop to have any conversation.
_Q._ If he had stopped long enough, you would have told him so?
_A._ I do not know that I would.
_Q._ Where was he coming from, at a quarter past six?
_A._ He came up from the water-side; I cannot tell which way he came to
the stable-yard gateway.
_Q._ And he seemed in a hurry to get home?
_A._ He did.
_Q._ How far is it from Asylum Place to Chelsea?
_A._ It is two miles from the bottom of our street to Buckingham-gate,
and it is a mile from that to the middle arch of Westminster-bridge; I
cannot tell how far it is from that to the Asylum.
_Q._ You did not see where he came from?
_A._ No.
_Q._ But he was in a hurry to get home?
_A._ Yes.
_Mr. Park._ It is three miles and a half, or four miles, my Lord.
_A Juryman._ Was it day-light or dark, when you saw him?
_A._ It was between the two lights; it was not very clear at that time.
_Mr. Park._ I will call this woman, and will put a question to her; I
had not intended it, conceiving that what he said to his wife, could not
be evidence.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You will call her, or not, as you see fit; I do not
desire to have more persons called than is necessary.
_Mr. Park._ I must call her, as your Lordship has asked the question,
what he told her?
_Mr. Brougham._ If your Lordship will permit us, we will examine Hopper
now; he is extremely ill, I understand.
_Lord Ellenborough._ If you please.
_Mr. Thomas Hopper sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Brougham_.
_Q._ What are you?
_A._ An architect.
_Q._ Do you know Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's premises at Allsop's
buildings?
_A._ I saw them two nights ago.
_Q._ You saw a piece of ground that he possesses there?
_A._ I did.
_Q._ Will you look at that plan, which is lying there, for the laying
out of the ground? (_the witness looked at it._)
_A._ These plans I saw at the time.
_Lord Ellenborough._ That is two nights ago?
_A._ Yes, it is.
_Mr. Brougham._ Did you at the same time see the prospectus of the plan
for laying out the place?
_A._ This, I believe, is a copy of it.
_Q._ What should you think is a reasonable compensation to the person
who arranged that plan, and made that drawing, and the others connected
with that plan, and the prospectus?
_A._ That it would be almost impossible for me to tell; that must be
governed by the trouble that was attendant upon it, and of course of
that I cannot be a judge.
_Lord Ellenborough._ It is a very well drawn plan?
_A._ Certainly it is.
_Mr. Brougham._ Are you aware, that a plan of that kind cannot be made
out, without a survey of the ground?
_A._ Certainly.
_Q._ Are you aware, that in making a plan of that sort, there are
various other plans previously made, before it comes into that state?
_A._ No doubt, there must be.
_Q._ Can you take upon you, from that, and from your understanding of
the manner in which such plans are made, to say what would be a fair
reasonable compensation for the trouble bestowed?
_A._ Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, whom I saw upon the premises, made a
representation to me----
_Mr. Gurney._ We cannot hear that.
_Mr. Brougham._ From your own knowledge of the subject, and the ground,
what should you take to be a reasonable compensation?
_A._ It is so governed by the trouble attending it, that I cannot say,
with any precision; I should judge, from the calculation of the trouble
that must attend it, that a compensation of from two to three hundred
pounds, might not be excessive.
_---- M'Guire sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Park_.
_Q._ Are you the wife of the person who has just been here now?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you know Mr. De Berenger, when he lived at Chelsea?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Did you know Smith, his servant?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did your husband on any day, and if so, on what day, mention to you
his having seen Mr. De Berenger, Smith's master?
_A._ Yes, he did on the 20th February, about ten o'clock at night.
_Q._ When he came home?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ How do you happen to know it was the 20th of February, more than
the 13th or the 6th?
_A._ It was the Sunday before Shrove-tuesday.
_Q._ What led you to recollect it so particularly?
_A._ It was my child's birth-day.
_Q._ Do you mean that Shrove-tuesday was your child's birth-day, or that
Sunday?
_A._ The Sunday; the first child I ever had in my life.
_Q._ On that day he told you he had seen Mr. De Berenger at his master's
yard?
_A._ Yes, he did.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did he tell you at what o'clock he saw him?
_A._ Yes; at about a quarter past six.
_Q._ Did he tell you that he thought it was shocking he should be out of
the Rules?
_A._ Yes, he did; that he wondered whether he had got his liberty or
not.
_Q._ Did he say it was shocking he should be out of the Rules?
_A._ I cannot particularly say, whether he said it was shocking or not.
_Q._ Had you known these Smiths long?
_A._ About three years and seven months.
_Q._ You are in the habits of visiting them sometimes?
_A._ Smith came backwards and forwards to Chelsea, when his master lived
at the end of the bridge.
_Q._ Have you kept up your acquaintance with them, since they lived in
Chelsea?
_A._ Yes, I have.
_Q._ You are very well acquainted with them?
_A._ Yes, I am.
_Q._ Had you seen him that day, the 20th?
_A._ No; I saw him that day fortnight.
_Q._ Your husband did not stay at home to keep the birth-day of his
child?
_A._ No; my husband is an ostler, and he cannot come and go at his own
time.
_Q._ But he mentioned about the Rules to you, did he?
_A._ Yes, he did; he said he should enquire from Smith, the first time
he saw him, whether his master had got his liberty or not.
_Q._ Had your husband an anxiety to know whether he had got his liberty
or not?
_A._ No, I cannot say that he seemed anxious, but he said he wondered
how he came down there.
_Henry Doyle Tragear sworn._
_Examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ Do you remember being at Mr. Donithorne's house, in York-street,
Westminster, in the month of February last?
_A._ Yes, I do.
_Q._ Were you staying at his house?
_A._ Yes, I was.
_Q._ Living and sleeping there?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ When did you go there?
_A._ I went there on the 17th of February.
_Q._ On what occasion?
_A._ I let my house, No. 39, Little Queen-street, Holborn, where I had
carried on the hatting business, and I went from thence to Donithorne's.
_Q._ Was it on the 17th you let your house, finally.
_A._ Yes, it was.
_Q._ Did you stay at Mr. Donithorne's until or after the Sunday
following, the 20th of February?
_A._ Yes, and until this very time.
_Q._ Are you acquainted with the prisoner Mr. De Berenger?
_A._ Yes, I have seen him frequently previously to that, at Mr.
Donithorne's house.
_Q._ Do you or not, remember having seen him on Sunday the 20th of
February?
_A._ Yes, very particularly on that day.
_Q._ Did you see him more than once on that day?
_A._ Yes, I saw him twice on that day.
_Q._ When was the first time you saw him?
_A._ Between nine and ten in the morning.
_Q._ When was the last time you saw him?
_A._ Between eight and nine in the evening of the same day.
_Q._ Did he stay any time when you saw him the last time on that day?
_A._ Yes, he did.
_Q._ Both these times you saw him in Mr. Donithorne's house?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ How long did he stay when he came in the evening?
_A._ It might be somewhere about half an hour; I cannot exactly say; it
might be an hour, or it might be less.
_Q._ Was it thereabouts, as nearly as you can remember?
_A._ Yes; it was, as nearly as I can remember.
_Q._ You are sure it was somewhere thereabouts?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Was he a visitor of Mr. Donithorne's, or did he come on business?
_A._ I have seen him frequently talking to Mr. Donithorne, about
drawings, designs of furniture, and things of that sort.
_Q._ What is Donithorne?
_A._ He is a cabinet maker.
_Q._ You had seen him before that time?
_A._ Yes; Mr. Donithorne has shewn him to me.
_Lord Ellenborough._ What are you yourself?
_A._ A hat manufacturer by trade.
_Q._ You have been out of business since that time?
_A._ Yes, I have; not entirely out of business; but I have not a house
at the present moment; I went there to reside, till I saw a house that
would suit my purpose.
_Q._ He was talking with Mr. Donithorne?
_A._ Yes, he was.
_Mr. Richardson._ Was any body else present?
_A._ Yes; there was my wife, Mr. Donithorne and Mrs. Donithorne; we were
in the parlour in the evening, when he came.
_Q._ Did he sit down?
_A._ He said that he would not come into the parlour to disturb the
company; Mr. Donithorne went to the back part of the house with him,
into the garden.
_Q._ Did he come into the parlour?
_A._ Yes, he did just come into the parlour; but he said he would not
disturb the company.
_Q._ Did he afterwards come in?
_A._ I do not know whether he came in afterwards or not.
_Q._ But you saw him there?
_A._ I saw him in the house.
_Q._ You are well acquainted with his person?
_A._ Yes; I had seen him repeatedly before that.
_Q._ You did not see him after that?
_A._ No, I did not.
_Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney._
_Q._ Do you remember being struck with any alteration in his appearance
that night?
_A._ No.
_Q._ How long before that time had he left off wearing the large
whiskers he used to have?
_A._ I cannot say.
_Q._ He had not them on that night?
_A._ I cannot say that I saw any alteration.
_Q._ He had no whiskers on that night?
_A._ No.
_Q._ He had never been used to wear whiskers?
_A._ That I cannot say.
_Q._ You knew him well, and had seen him often?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ And you mean to say, you do not remember whether he wore whiskers
on not?
_A._ He might or might not, I do not look so particularly into a
gentleman's face, as to see whether he has whiskers or not.
_Q._ I happen to look at your face, and I cannot help seeing that you
have whiskers, and a man who has such, might look at those on another
person's face; do you mean to say, that in viewing the countenance of a
gentleman you were acquainted with, you did not look so as to see
whether he had whiskers?
_A._ Not unless a person spoke to me about them.
_Q._ Unless a person said "whiskers," you would not look at them?
_A._ No.
_Q._ Mr. De Berenger had not whiskers that night, however?
_A._ No.
_Q._ You were a hatter, in business at one time, and are not now?
_A._ Yes; I sell a great many hats now, though I have no house.
_Q._ Perhaps though you do not take notice of a man's whiskers, you take
notice of his coat; what coat had he on?
_A._ A black coat.
_Q._ That you did take notice of?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ It was so remarkable he should wear a black coat, you took notice
of that?
_A._ No; I do not know that it is remarkable; but I know he had a black
coat.
_Q._ Was his head powdered?
_A._ I cannot say; I did not see his hat off.
_Q._ He staid half an hour with his hat on?
_A._ He went into the back part of the house.
_Q._ Do you mean to say, he staid half an hour in the house with his hat
on?
_A._ I do not mean to say, he stopped the whole time in house; he went
into the garden.
_Q._ On the 20th of February he went into the garden?
_A._ Yes.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Did he stand ancle-deep in the garden, or how?
_A._ I cannot say, indeed.
_Mr. Gurney._ Was not there a good deal of snow at that time on the
ground?
_A._ I cannot say, indeed.
_Q._ At what time was this?
_A._ Between eight and nine in the evening.
_Q._ And they took a walk in the garden?
_A._ Yes; it was in consequence of some alteration they were going to
make in the premises.
_Q._ So that they went at ten o'clock at night to survey this alteration
in the premises?
_A._ No; it was between eight and nine.
_Q._ It is just as dark then as it is at ten o'clock; they went to make
a survey in the morning, did they not?
_A._ They had made a survey in the morning, I saw them pacing the
garden.
_Q._ You told me they went out in the evening, to make a survey of the
premises?
_A._ I cannot say what they went for, but I know they went there.
_Q._ Do you happen to know, whether Mr. Donithorne is acquainted with
Mr. Tahourdin, the attorney?
_A._ I do not know whether he is acquainted with him, or not.
_Q._ You swear that?
_A._ I swear that; I do not know that he is acquainted with him
particularly.
_Q._ Upon your oath have you not seen them together?
_A._ Yes, I have.
_Q._ Had not you seen them together before that time?
_A._ No, I had not.
_Q._ How often have you seen them together since?
_A._ I never saw them together but once.
_Q._ When was that?
_A._ One day last week.
_Q._ Do you mean to swear, that you did not know that they were
acquainted with each other before that time?
_A._ Yes, I do.
_Q._ What is Mr. Donithorne; a cabinet-maker?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ This you say was about making alterations in the garden; are they
made?
_A._ No, they are not.
_Q._ They are waiting till February perhaps, to survey this garden
again?
_A._ I do not know, indeed.
_Q._ When were you first sent for to become a witness on this occasion?
_A._ I never was sent for.
_Q._ When did you go to any person upon the subject?
_A._ I never went to any place upon the subject, further than going
myself to Mr. Tahourdin; but he did not send for me.
_Q._ You went to Mr. Tahourdin without being sent for?
_A._ I went with Mr. Donithorne.
_Q._ When was that?
_A._ I cannot exactly say, but I think it was some day last week.
_Q._ Did you know before last week that you were to be a witness?
_A._ No, I did not.
_Q._ Did you know before last week, that it was at all material that you
should recollect the 20th of February?
_A._ No, I did not know it; but I can tell you one particular thing that
makes me recollect it; I let my house, No. 39, Little Queen-street,
Holborn, on the 17th of February, to Samuel Nicholson, and went to Mr.
Donithorne's to live; and on that very morning, the 20th, the Sunday,
Mr. Donithorne (I rather indulge myself with lying in bed on Sunday
morning) came to my door and knocked, and told me Mr. De Berenger was
come to look over the house, and that if I would get up he should be
obliged to me.
_Mr. Gurney._ I congratulate you on the cure of your deafness[417:A].
_Lord Ellenborough._ You lay a-bed and were disturbed?
_A._ No, not particularly; only I lay a-bed on the Sunday till about
nine o'clock.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Do you know Smith, De Berenger's servant?
_A._ I have seen him.
_Re-examined by Mr. Richardson._
_Q._ You saw them in this piece of garden in the morning?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ My learned friend has asked, whether the alterations are carried
into effect, or not?
_A._ They are not.
_Q._ Do you know, whether Mr. De Berenger went away after that?
_A._ He stopped about half an hour.
_Q._ Has he been absent from a period soon after the 20th of February?
_A._ Yes; I never heard much about him till last week.
_Lord Ellenborough._ When they came to you, you immediately recollected
the 20th of February?
_A._ When who came down to me?
_Q._ When you went to Mr. Tahourdin, you immediately recollected the
21st of February?
_A._ He asked me, whether I could recollect on what day I came to this
house; and I told him I do not know that I can recollect exactly; but I
can go to Mr. Nicholson, upon whom I drew a bill at two months, for half
the money for the goods and fixtures of my house, and ask him whether it
is correct.
_Q._ He asked you, whether you recollected the 20th of February?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you say you recollected it by being disturbed in the morning?
_A._ Yes, I did.
_Q._ There was no snow in the garden when they paced it in the way you
have spoken of?
_A._ I cannot positively say; I did not charge my memory with that.
_Q._ Are you perfectly certain in your recollection, as to having had
your sleep disturbed?
_A._ Yes, I am perfectly certain of that.
_Q._ You know De Berenger very well?
_A._ I have seen him several times at Mr. Donithorne's house?
_Q._ And you know Tahourdin?
_A._ I never saw him till last week.
_Q._ Do you know where Mr. De Berenger dined that day?
_A._ No, I do not.
_Q._ At what time did he come in the morning?
_A._ Between nine and ten.
_A Juryman._ That might be any other Sunday morning, as you were in the
habit of indulging on a Sunday morning?
_A._ No, but I know the time; it was the Sunday after I let my house; I
have it impressed upon my mind that it was on the 20th of February I
saw him at this house in York-street, Westminster.
_A Juryman._ Then the lying in bed in the morning had nothing to do with
it?
_A._ No.
_Lord Ellenborough._ Have you ever been bail?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Have you ever justified in any action?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ What action was that?
_A._ A fifteen-pound action.
_Q._ How long was that ago?
_A._ Five or six months.
_Q._ Is that debt paid?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Did you ever justify in any other action?
_A._ Yes, I have.
_Q._ Is that satisfied?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ You are clear as to that, that these debts are paid?
_A._ Yes.
_Q._ Were you never bail but twice?
_A._ I do not recollect that I was; I might be, but I do not recollect;
but I have not been in the habit of being bail for people.
_Q._ You have not been in the habit, but you have been twice:--what was
the other sum besides the fifteen pounds?
_A._ I do not exactly know what the money was; but the other was more
than that, a good deal.
_Q._ That is only within a few months?
_A._ I dare say that is five months back.
_Lord Ellenborough._ You may go away, and let me advise you not to be
either a bail or a witness again. If the master had been here with the
book, I have no doubt you might have gone much further with him.