THE GAG-LAW.--SECOND INTERVIEW.

We left the committee very much dissatisfied with the treatment we

had received from Mr. Lunt and the majority of his associates. Hon.

Ebenezer Moseley was an honorable exception. From the first he had

treated us in the most fair and gentlemanly manner. And at the last he

protested against the procedure of the Chairman.

We forthwith drew up, and the next morning presented, a memorial to

the Legislature, intimating that we had not been properly treated

by the committee, and asking that our _right_ to be heard might be

recognized, and that we might be permitted to appear and show our

reasons in full, why the Legislature of Massachusetts should not enact

any penal law, nor pass any resolutions condemning Abolitionists and

antislavery societies. The remonstrance was read in both branches of

the Legislature and referred to the same committee, with instructions

to hear us according to our request.

On the afternoon of the 8th, therefore, we met the committee again in

the Hall of the Representatives. The reports which had gone forth of

our first interview had so interested the public, that the house was

now quite filled with gentlemen and ladies, many of whom had never

before shown any sympathy with the antislavery reform.

It was intended that Dr. Follen should address the committee first,

beginning just where he had been, on the 4th, so rudely commanded by

Mr. Lunt to leave off, and that he should press home that part of

his argument which we all deemed so important. But he was detained

from the meeting until a later hour. It devolved upon me, therefore,

to commence. I confined my remarks to two points. First, I contended

that our publications were not incendiary, not intended nor adapted to

excite the oppressed to insurrection. Secondly, I assured the committee

that, whatever they might think of the character of our publications,

we had never sent them to the slaves nor to the colored people of the

South, and gave them our reasons for having refrained so to do.

Samuel E. Sewall, Esq., then made a somewhat extended, but very close

legal and logical argument against the demands of the slaveholding

States,--“arrogant, insolent demands,” as he called them. “To yield to

them would be to subvert the foundations of our civil liberties, and

make it criminal to obey the laws of God, and follow the example of

Jesus Christ.” His excellent speech evidently made an impression upon

the committee as well as his larger audience. But I have not room here

for such an abstract of it as I should like to give.

While Mr. Sewall was speaking Dr. Follen came in, and when he had

ended the Doctor arose and commenced by showing very clearly that we

Abolitionists were accused of _crime_ by the legislatures of several

of our Southern States, and that the Governor of Massachusetts had

indorsed the accusation, because we had exercised in the cause of

humanity that liberty of speech and of the press which was guaranteed

to us in the Constitution of our Republic, not less explicitly than in

the fundamental law of this State. “We have endeavored by persuasion,

by argument, by moral and religious appeals to urge upon the nation,

and especially upon our Southern brethren, the necessity of freeing

themselves from the sin, the evils, and the shame of slavery. You

cannot punish or censure freedom of speech in Abolitionists, without

preparing the way to censure it in any other class of citizens who may

for the moment be obnoxious to the majority. A penal enactment against

us is less to be dreaded than condemnatory resolutions; for these are

left to be enforced by Judge Lynch and his minions, and I must say, as

I said the other day--”

“I call you to order, sir,” said Mr. Lunt, with great emphasis. “This

is not respectful to the committee.”

Dr. Follen replied, “I am not conscious of having said anything

disrespectful to the committee. I beg to be informed in what I am out

of order.”

Mr. Lunt replied, “Your allusion to mobs, for which you were called to

order at our first interview, is not proper.”

“Am I then to understand,” said Dr. Follen, “that deprecating mobs is

disrespectful to this committee?”

Mr. Moseley, one of the committee, here spoke with much feeling;

said he dissented wholly from the action of the Chairman. “I see

nothing in the allusion to mobs disrespectful to the committee or the

Legislature; and I consider Dr. Follen entirely in order.”

Some discussion ensued. Two others of the committee, making a majority,

silently assented to the opinion of Mr. Lunt. So it was decided that

the Doctor was out of order, and must not allude to mobs.

Here I called the attention of Mr. Lunt to the memorial, in answer

to which we were permitted by the Legislature to appear before the

committee, and they were instructed to hear us. “It seemed, on the

fourth instant, that the Chairman considered that we came here by his

grace to exculpate ourselves from the charges alleged against us by the

Legislatures of several of the Southern States; and that we were not

to be permitted to express our anxious apprehensions of the effects of

any acts by our Legislature intended to gratify the wishes of those

States. In order, therefore, that we might appear before you in the

_exercise of our right as free citizens_, we have appealed to the

Senate and House of Representatives, and have received their permission

so to do. Dr. Follen was setting before you what we deem the most

probable and most serious evil to be apprehended from any condemnatory

resolutions which the Legislature might be induced to pass; and if he

is not permitted to press this upon your consideration our interview

with the committee must end here.” Mr. Lunt then consulted with his

associates and intimated that Dr. Follen might proceed. He did so, and

having referred to the disastrous influence of the great meeting in

Faneuil Hall, August, 1835, and of the condemnatory resolutions there

passed, he showed clearly that far greater outrages upon the property

and persons of Abolitionists would be likely to follow the passage of

similar resolutions by the Legislature of the Commonwealth.

Rev. William Goodell then arose and made a most able and eloquent

speech. He ignored for the time being all the personal dangers and

private wrongs of the Abolitionists; he set aside for the moment the

consideration of everything else but the imminent peril that seemed to

be impending over the very life of liberty in our country. “For what,

Mr. Chairman,” said he, “are Abolitionists accused by the Southern

States, and our own Legislature called upon to condemn them? For

nothing else but exercising and defending the inalienable rights of

the people. What have we said that is not said in your Declaration of

Independence? and why are we censured for carrying into practice what

others have been immortalized as patriots for writing and adopting?

In censuring us you censure the Father of our Country. I turn to the

portrait of Washington as it looks upon us in this hall, and remind

you how he declared that he earnestly desired to see the time when

slavery should be abolished. For saying this, and urging it upon our

countrymen, the mandate has come from the South to stop our mouths, and

we are here to avert the sentence our own Legislature is called upon

to pronounce upon us.” Mr. Goodell then went on to quote the strongest

antislavery sentiments uttered by President Jefferson, Chief Justice

John Jay, and Hon. William Pinckney, a distinguished member of the

Legislature of Maryland, the last in stronger language of condemnation

than ever issued from an antislavery press. “Shall the men of the

South speak thus, and we be compelled to hold our peace? Mr. Chairman,

in this hour of my country’s danger, I should disdain to stand here

pleading for my personal security. In behalf of my fellow-citizens

throughout the land, I implore the Legislature of this Commonwealth to

pause before they act on those documents of the South. What are they?

A demand for the unconditional surrender to the South of the first

principles of your Constitution, the surrender of your liberties. It

is a blow particularly aimed at the independence of your laboring

classes.” Mr. Goodell here quoted the declaration of Governor McDuffie

and other distinguished Southern gentlemen, distinctly asserting the

doctrine that “the laboring population of no nation on earth are

entitled to liberty or capable of enjoying it.” “Mr. Chairman, we are

charged with aiming at disunion, because we seek what only can save the

Union. I charge upon those who promulgate the doctrines on your table,

a deep and foul conspiracy against the liberties of the laboring people

of the North.” Mr. Lunt here interrupted him.

“Mr. Goodell, I must interfere,” he said. “You must not charge other

States with a foul conspiracy, nor treat their public documents with

disrespect.” Mr. Goodell replied: “Something may be pardoned to a man

when he speaks for the liberties of a nation.” Mr. Lunt continued:

“The documents emanating from other States are required by our

Federal Constitution to be received with full faith and credit here.”

“Certainly, sir,” responded Mr. Goodell. “I wish them to be regarded as

official, accredited documents, and I have referred to an accredited

document from the Governor of South Carolina, in which he says, _that

the laborers of the North are incapable of understanding or enjoying

freedom, that liberty in a free State best subsists with slavery, and

that the laborers must be reduced to slavery, or the laws cannot be

maintained_. This, sir, is also a document entitled to full faith and

credit,--holding up a report of the doings of the Legislature of South

Carolina, in which they declared an entire accordance with Governor

McDuffie in the sentiments expressed in his message.” Mr. Lunt here

interposed with great warmth. “Stop, sir!” Mr. Goodell stopped, but

remained standing. “Sit down, sir,” said Mr. Lunt; “the committee will

hear no more of this.” Mr. Goodell said: “My duty is discharged, Mr.

Chairman, if I cannot proceed in the way that seems to me necessary

to bring our case properly before the committee and the Legislature.

We came here as free men, and we will go away as freemen should.”

Some one in the vast audience that had been watching our proceedings

with intensest interest cried out, “Let us go quickly lest we be made

slaves.” I here made one more appeal to Mr. Lunt. “Are we, sir, to be

again denied our right of being heard in pursuance of our memorial to

the Legislature?” The Chairman intimated that they had heard enough.

The audience here began to leave the hall, but were arrested by a voice

in their midst. It was that of Dr. Gamaliel Bradford, not a member

of the Antislavery Society, who had come there only as a spectator,

but had been so moved by what he had witnessed that he pronounced an

eloquent, thrilling, impassioned, but respectful appeal in favor of

free discussion. I wish that I could spread the whole of it before

my readers. So soon as he sat down Mr. George Bond, one of the most

prominent merchants and estimable gentlemen of Boston, expressed a

desire to say a few words to the committee. “I am not a petitioner nor

an Abolitionist,” said he; “but, though opposed to some of the measures

of these antislavery gentlemen, I hold to some opinions in common with

them. If under these circumstances the committee will permit, I beg

leave to offer a few remarks.” The Chairman preserved silence; but

another member of the committee intimated to Mr. Bond that he might

proceed. “It strikes me,” said Mr. Bond, “that this is a subject of

deep and vital importance; and I fear as a citizen that the manner in

which it has been treated by the committee will produce an excitement

throughout the Commonwealth. With due respect to the committee, I beg

leave to say that, from the little experience I have had in legislative

proceedings, it is not the practice to require of persons, appearing

before a committee, a strict conformity to rules. They are usually

indulged in telling their own story in their own way, provided it be

not disrespectful. I have certainly heard nothing from the gentlemen

of the Antislavery Society that called for the course that has been

adopted. It does seem to me that some of the committee have been too

fastidious, too hypercritical.”

Mr. Lunt here broke out again. “Be careful, sir, what you say. The

committee will not submit to it.” Mr. Bond replied: “I certainly have

no wish to say anything unpleasant to the committee, but I cannot

help regretting the course that has been taken to withhold a full

hearing from the parties interested. They came here through their

memorial, which had been received by the Legislature and referred to

this committee, and I expected that the committee would have allowed

them to say what they pleased, using proper language. If they state

their case improperly, it will injure them and not the committee. I

may be wrong, but I regret to see the grounds given for the gentlemen

and their friends to say they have been denied a hearing. The action

on this question here is of immense importance in the influence it may

have, not only upon those who have appeared before the committee, but

upon the Legislature, the community, the Commonwealth, and the whole

country.” When Mr. Bond had closed, instead of proffering to us a

further hearing, the committee broke up without a formal adjournment,

the Chairman immediately retiring, conscious, as it seems to me he

must have been, of the very general indignation which his conduct had

excited. Just as he was leaving, Mr. Moseley, one of the committee,

said to him, “I am not satisfied with your course. You have been wrong

from the beginning. I will not sit again on such a committee.”

The large audience retired from the hall murmuring their astonishment,

shame, indignation at the conduct of the Chairman. Many gentlemen and

ladies, who had never shown us favor before, came to assure us that

they had been led, by what they had heard and seen that afternoon, to

take a new view of the importance of the great reform we were laboring

to effect.

Nothing, however, gratified us so much as seeing Dr. Channing approach

Mr. Garrison, whom until then he had appeared to avoid, shake him

cordially by the hand, and utter some words of sympathy. From that time

until his death the larger portion of his publications were upon the

subject of slavery, increasing in earnestness and power to the last.

The conduct of the committee, especially the Chairman, was severely

censured next day in the Senate by Hon. Mr. Whitmarsh, and other

members of that body. Reports of our interviews were published

and republished throughout the Commonwealth, and called out from

almost every part of it condemnatory comments. Many were brought

over to the antislavery faith, and our party became not a little

significant in the estimation of the politicians. Governor Everett’s

too evident inclination to yield to the insolent demands of the

slaveholding oligarchy damaged him seriously in the confidence of

his fellow-citizens, and, if I remember correctly, at the very next

election he was beaten by the opposing candidate, whose sentiments on

slavery were thought to be more correct than his.

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