J. G. Hawkens is the whitest Negro I have ever seen. He has blue eyes
and straight hair. He was fishing two days I went to see him.
#656
Interviewer: Miss Irene Robertson
Person interviewed: Lizzie Hawkens
Biscoe, Arkansas
Age: 65
"I was born close to Magnolia, Arkansas.
"My mother was Harriett Marshal. Her old mistress was a Marshal. She was
a widow woman and had let all her slaves go out to her children but
mama. Mama was her husband's chile, what she tole mama. They come here
from Atlanta, Georgia visiting her married daughter. They was the
Joiners at Magnolia, Arkansas. She brought mama and on her way back home
to Atlanta she died. Her daughter brought her back and buried her in
Arkansas and kept mama.
"Mama said they was nice to her. They wouldn't let her keep company with
no black folks. She was about as white as white folks. She was white as
my husband. Her mother was light or half white. My own papa was a black
man.
"The Joiners and Scotts visited down at Magnolia among themselves but
they didn't want mama to marry in the Scott family (of Negroes). But the
white folks was mighty good friends. Mama took care of the children.
They was in the orchard one day. Papa spied mama. He picked up a plum
and threw at her. She say, 'Where that come from?' He stooped down and
seen her under the limbs. They was under another plum tree. Papa got to
talk to her that day. The old mistress wouldn't let her out of sight.
Papa never could have got her if Mistress Marshal had lived.
"Mama had three or four sisters and brothers in Atlanta, and her mother
was in Atlanta. Her parents were Bob and Lucindy Marshal. Bob was
Lucindy's master. Mama told old mistress to bring Harriett back and she
promised she would. That was one thing made her watch after her so
close. She never had been made a slave. She was to look after old
mistress.
"After she died mama's young mistress let papa have her. He mustered up
courage to ax for her and she said, 'Yes, L (for Elbert), you can have
her.' That was all the marrying they ever done. They never jumped over
no broom she said. They was living together when she died. But in
slavery times mama lived on at Judge Joiner's and papa at Scott's place.
One family lived six miles east of Magnolia and the other six miles
north of Magnolia. Papa went to see mama twelve miles. They cut through
sometimes. It was dense woods. Mama had one boy before freedom. In all
she had three boys and four girls.
"The Scott and Joiner white folks told the slaves about freedom. Papa
homesteaded a place one mile of the courthouse square. The old home is
standing there now.
"Papa said during the Civil War he hauled corn in an ox wagon. The
cavalry met him more than once and took every ear and grain he had. He'd
have to turn and go back.
"He said when freedom come, some of the people tole the slaves, 'You
have to root pig or die poor.'
"My great-grandpa was sold in South Carolina. He said he rather die than
be sold. He went up in the mountains and found a den of rattlesnakes to
bite him. They was under a stone. Said when he seen them he said,
'Uhher! You can't bite me.' They commenced to rattle like dry
butter-beans. He went on and dressed to be sold. Master Scott bought him
and brought him on to Arkansas. He had to leave his wife. He never got
back to see her.
"Grandpa had to come leave his wife. He married ag'in and had five sons
and a girl. They was Glasco, Alex, Hilliard, Elbert, Bill, and
Katherine. They belong to Spencers till the Scotts bought them but all
these children was his Scott children.
"My uncle's wife belong to white folks not Scotts. Scotts wouldn't sell
and her folks wouldn't part from her. They moved down in Louisiana and
took her and one chile. Uncle run away to see her. The Scotts put the
hounds after him and run him two days and two nights. He was so tired he
stopped to rest. The dogs come up around him. He took a pine knot and
killed the lead dog, hit him in the head and put him in a rotten knot
hole of a hollow tree been burned out and just flew. The dogs scattered
and he heard the horns. He heard the dogs howl and the hoofs of the
man's horses. The old master was dead. He didn't allow the boys to slash
in among his niggers. After he died they was bossy. Uncle said he made
his visit and come back. He didn't ever tell them he killed the lead dog
nor how close they come up on him. He said they was glad to see him when
he come back. His wife was named Georgana.
"After freedom grandpa named himself Spencer Scott. He buried his money.
He made a truck garden and had patches in slavery both in South Carolina
and at Magnolia. He told me he had rusty dollars never been turned over
since they made him came here. He left some money buried back there. We
found his money on his place at Magnolia when he died. He tole us where
it was.
"One night he was going across a bridge and taking a sack of melons to
Magnolia to sell in slavery times. A bear met him. He jumped at the bear
and said 'boo'. The bear growled and run on its way. He said he was so
scared he was stiff. They let them work some patches at night and sell
some things to make a little money. The ole master give them some money
if they went to the city. That was about twice a year papa said. He
never seen a city till years after freedom. His pa and grandpa got to go
every now and then. Magnolia was no city in them days.
"It is hard to raise children in this day and time. When I went on the
Betzner place (near Biscoe, Arkansas) my son was eight years old. He
growed up along side Brooks (Betzner). I purt nigh talked my tongue out
of my head and Brooks' (white boy) mother did the same thing. Every year
when we would lay by, me and my husband (white Negro) would go on a
camp. Brooks would ask me if he could go. We took the two of them. (The
Hawkens boy is said to be a dark mulatto--ed.) He's a smart boy, a good
farmer down in Lee County now. He married when he was nineteen years
old. It is hard to raise a boy now. There is boxing and prize fighting
and pool halls and _that's not right_! Times are not improving as I can
see in that way. Worse than I have ever seen them."
Interviewer: Mrs. Bernice Bowden
Person interviewed: Becky Hawkins
717 Louisiana Street, Pine Bluff, Arkansas
Age: 75
"Yes'm, I was born in slave times but my mammy was sucklin' me. Don't
know much bout slavery but just come up free.
"My mammy's old master was Calvin Goodloe in Alabama, Pulaski County,
near Tuscumbia. I heered my uncle say old master favored his niggers.
"Mammy told me bout em gettin' whippin's, but she never let the overseer
whip her--she'd go to old master.
"My grandmama's hair was straight but she was black. She was mixed
Indian. My mammy's father was Indian and she say he fought in the
Revolution. She had his pistol and rocks. When he died he was the oldest
man around there.
"I tell you what I remember. I 'member my mammy had a son named Enoch
and he nussed me in slave days when mammy was workin' in the field. They
didn't low em to go to the house but three times a day--that was the
women what had babies. But I was so sickly mammy had Enoch bring me to
the fence so she could suckle me.
"I went to school down here in Arkansas in Lincoln County. I got so I
could read in McGuffy's Fourth Reader. I member that story bout the
white man chunkin' the boy down out of the apple tree.
"That was a government school on the railroad--notch house. Just had one
door and one window. They took the nigger cabins and made a
schoolhouse.
"After freedom my mammy stayed on old master's place--he didn't drive em
away. My mammy spinned the raw cotton and took it to Tuscumbia and got
it wove. Some of it she dyed. I know when I was a gal I wore a checked
dress with a white apron. And my first Sunday dress was striped cotton.
After she worked enough she bought me a red worsted dress and trimmed it
and a sailor hat. We went to church and they led me by the hand. After
church I had to take off my dress and hang it up till next Sunday. Had a
apron made of cross barred muslin. Don't see any of that now. It was
made with a bodice and had ruffles round the neck. Wore brass toed shoes
and balmoral stockin's in my gal time. When my husband was courtin' me,
my dress was down to my shoe top. He never saw my leg!
"My fust work was nussin'. I went to Hot Springs with the white folks. I
nussed babies till I got against nussin' babies. I stayed right in the
house and slep on a sofa with a baby in my arms. In my time they lowed
you off half a day on Sunday.
"Chile, I washed and ironed and washed and ironed and washed and ironed
till I married. I married when I was seventeen. My mother was dead and
I'd rather been married than runnin' loose--I might a stepped on a
snake.
"My daddy was a ex-soldier. I don't know what side he fought on but my
mammy got bounty when he died. That's what she bought that land with
down here in Lincoln County from her old master Goodloe.
"I tell you--I'm a old christian and I think this younger generation is
growin' up like Christ said--they is gettin' weaker and wiser.
"My mother's sister, Patience Goodloe, lived in Pulaski County, Alabama
and I went back there after I was married and stayed two months. I went
up and down the fields where my daddy and mommy worked. I went out to
the graveyard where my little brother was buried but they had cotton and
corn planted on the old slavetime graveyard.
"I like that country lots better than this here Arkansas. Don't have no
springs or nothin' here."
#733
Interviewer: Samuel S. Taylor
Person interviewed: G. W. Hawkins
1114 Appianway, Little Rock, Arkansas
Age: 73
"I was born in Lamar County, Vernon, Alabama, January 1, 1865. I was a
slave only four months.
"My father was Arter Hawkins and my mother was named Frances. My
grandmother on my mother's side was Malvina. I forget the name of my
great-grandmother, but I believe it was Elizabeth. She was one hundred
nine years old and I was twelve years old then. Her mind was just like a
little sparrow floating in the air. That was my great-grandmother on my
mother's side. My grandfather on my father's side was named Alec Young.
My mother's father was named Eliza Wright.
"My mother's people were the Hawkins, and my father's were the Yanceys.
"My father and mother were farmers, and ran whiskey stills. There wasn't
any revenue on whiskey then. The first revenue ever paid on whiskey was
ten cents. The reason I remember that so well was that a fellow named
John Hayman ran a still after the revenue was put on the stuff. Finally
they caught him. They fined him.
"My folks farmed right after freedom and they farmed in slavery time.
They didn't raise no cotton. They raised corn and wheat and such as that
in Alabama. Alabama is good for cotton, corn, wheat, tobacco, or
anything you want to grow. It is the greatest fruit country in the
world.
"Right after freedom, my folks continued to farm till they all played
out."
[HW: Insert on P. 9]
"I came out here after I got grown. I just took a notion to go somewhere
else. I have been in Arkansas forty-eight years. I first lived in
Forrest City. Stayed there six years and did carpenter work. I have been
a carpenter all my life--ever since I was about sixteen years old. I
went to Barton, Arkansas and stayed there two years and then came here.
I have supported myself by carpenter work ever since I came here. I
helped build the Frisco Road from Potts Camp to the Alabama River. That
is the other side of Jefferson County in Alabama.
"I haven't asked for the old folks pension--can't get no one to believe
that I am old enough for one thing. Can't get it nohow. It is for
destitute people. I can't get under the security because they say I am
too old for that. I'm too much of a worker to get old age assistance and
too old to be allowed to put up tax to become eligible for old age
pension.
"I never went to school. I just got an old blue back speller and taught
myself how to read and write with what I picked up here and there from
people I watched. That's one way a man never fails to learn--watching
people. That's the only way our forefathers had to learn. I learned
arithmetic the same way. I never considered I was much at figuring but I
took a contract from a man who had all kinds of education and that man
said I could do arithmetic better than he could.
"I belong to the A. M. E. Church. I have been a member of it for
forty-one years.
"I have three boys living and one stepdaughter. But she feels like she
is my own. I don't make any difference. I never have whipped my
children. I had one child--a girl--that died when she was eight months
old. I taught all my boys the carpenter trade, and they all work and
stay right here at home with me."