Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. ay.
M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.
M^r Sherman moved to refer the 1^{st} part apportioning the
Representatives, to a Comm^e of a member from each State.
M^r Gov^r Morris seconded the motion; observing that this was the only
case in which such committees were useful.
M^r Williamson thought it would be necessary to return to the rule of
numbers, but that the Western States stood on different footing. If
their property shall be rated as high as that of the Atlantic States,
then their representation ought to hold a like proportion. Otherwise if
their property was not to be equally rated.
M^r Gov^r Morris. The Report is little more than a guess. Wealth was not
altogether disregarded by the Com^e. Where it was apparently in favor of
one State, whose n^{os} were superior to the numbers of another, by a
fraction only, a member extraordinary was allowed to the former: and so
vice versa. The Committee meant little more than to bring the matter to
a point for the consideration of the House.
M^r Reed asked why Georgia was allowed 2 members, when her number of
inhabitants had stood below that of Delaware.
M^r Gov^r Morris. Such is the rapidity of the population of that State,
that before the plan takes effect, it will probably be entitled to 2
Representatives.
M^r Randolph, disliked the Report of the Com^e but had been unwilling to
object to it. He was apprehensive that as the number was not be changed,
till the Nat^l Legislature should please, a pretext would never be
wanting to postpone alterations, and keep the power in the hands of
those possessed of it. He was in favor of the Commitm^t to a member from
each State.
M^r Patterson considered the proposed estimate for the future according
to the combined rules of numbers and wealth, as too vague. For this
reason N. Jersey was ag^{st} it. He could regard negroes slaves in no
light but as property. They are no free agents, have no personal
liberty, no faculty of acquiring property, but on the contrary are
themselves property, & like other property entirely at the will of the
Master. Has a man in Virg^a a number of votes in proportion to the
number of his slaves? And if negroes are not represented in the States
to which they belong, why should they be represented in the Gen^l Gov^t.
What is the true principle of Representation? It is an expedient by
which an assembly of certain individ^{ls} chosen by the people is
substituted in place of the inconvenient meeting of the people
themselves. If such a meeting of the people was actually to take place,
would the slaves vote? They would not. Why then sh^d they be
represented. He was also ag^{st} such an indirect encouragem^t of the
slave trade; observing that Cong^s in their act relating to the change
of the 8 art: of Confed^n had been ashamed to use the term "slaves" &
had substituted a description.
M^r Madison reminded M^r Patterson that his doctrine of Representation
which was in its principle the genuine one, must forever silence the
pretensions of the small States to an equality of votes with the large
ones. They ought to vote in the same proportion in which their Citizens
would do, if the people of all the States were collectively met. He
suggested as a proper ground of compromise, that in the first branch the
States should be represented according to their number of free
inhabitants; And in the 2^d which had for one of its primary objects the
guardianship of property, according to the whole number, including
slaves.
M^r Butler urged warmly the justice & necessity of regarding wealth in
the apportionment of Representation.
M^r King had always expected that as the Southern States are the
richest, they would not league themselves with the North^n unless some
respect were paid to their superior wealth. If the latter expect those
preferential distinctions in Commerce, & other advantages which they
will derive from the connexion they must not expect to receive them
without allowing some advantages in return. Eleven out of 13 of the
States had agreed to consider Slaves in the apportionment of taxation;
and taxation and Representation ought to go together.
On the question for committing the first paragraph of the Report to a
member from each State
Mass^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.
M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Geo. ay.
The Com^e appointed were M^r King, M^r Sherman, M^r Yates, M^r Brearly,
M^r Gov^r Morris, M^r Reed, M^r Carrol, M^r Madison, M^r Williamson, M^r
Rutlidge, M^r Houston.
Adj^d.