Roger Sherman (from Connecticut) took his seat.
The House went into Committee of the Whole on the State of the Union.
M^r Gorham was elected to the Chair by Ballot.
The propositions of M^r Randolph which had been referred to the
Co[~m]ittee being taken up. He moved on the suggestion of M^r G. Morris,
that the first of his propositions to wit "Resolved that the articles of
Confederation ought to be so corrected & enlarged, as to accomplish the
objects proposed by their institution; namely, common defence, security
of liberty, and general welfare,--should be postponed, in order to
consider the 3 following:
1. that a union of the States merely federal will not accomplish
the objects proposed by the articles of Confederation, namely
common defence, security of liberty, & gen^l welfare.
2. that no treaty or treaties among the whole or part of the
States, as individual Sovereignties, would be sufficient.
3. that a _national_ Government ought to be established
consisting of a _supreme_ Legislative, Executive & Judiciary.
The motion for postponing was seconded by M^r Gov^r Morris and
unanimously agreed to.
Some verbal criticisms were raised ag^{st} the first proposition, and it
was agreed on motion of M^r Butler seconded by M^r Randolph, to pass on
to the third, which underwent a discussion, less however on its general
merits than on the force and extent of the particular terms _national &
supreme_.
M^r Charles Pinkney wished to know of M^r Randolph, whether he meant to
abolish the State Govern^{ts} altogether. M^r R. replied that he meant
by these general propositions merely to introduce the particular ones
which explained the outlines of the system he had in view.
M^r Butler said he had not made up his mind on the subject, and was open
to the light which discussion might throw on it. After some general
observations he concluded with saying that he had opposed the grant of
powers to Cong^s heretofore, because the whole power was vested in one
body. The proposed distribution of the powers into different bodies
changed the case, and would induce him to go great lengths.
Gen^l Pinkney[35] expressed a doubt whether the act of Cong^s
reco[~m]ending the Convention, or the Commissions of the Deputies to it,
could authorize a discussion of a system founded on different principles
from the federal Constitution.
[35] "M^r Ch^s Cotesworth Pinckney is a Gentleman of Family and
fortune in his own State. He has received the advantage of a
liberal education, and possesses a very extensive degree of
legal knowledge. When warm in a debate he sometimes speaks
well,--but he is generally considered an indifferent Orator.
Mr. Pinckney was an Officer of high rank in the American
Army, and served with great reputation through the War. He
is now about 40 years of age."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist.
Rev._, iii., 333.
M^r Gerry[36] seemed to entertain the same doubt.
[36] "M. Gerry's character is marked for integrity and
perseverance. He is a hesitating and laborious
speaker;--possesses a great degree of confidence and goes
extensively into all subjects that he speaks on, without
respect to elegance or flower of diction. He is connected
and sometimes clear in his arguments, conceives well, and
cherishes as his first virtue, a love for his Country. Mr.
Gerry is very much of a Gentleman in his principles and
manners;--he has been engaged in the mercantile line and is
a Man of property. He is about 37 years of age."--Pierce's
Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 325.
M^r Gov^r Morris explained the distinction between a _federal_ and
_national_, _supreme_, Gov^t; the former being a mere compact resting on
the good faith of the parties; the latter having a compleat and
_compulsive_ operation. He contended that in all Communities there must
be one supreme power, and one only.
M^r Mason observed that the present confederation was not only deficient
in not providing for coercion & punishment ag^{st} delinquent States;
but argued very cogently that punishment could not in the nature of
things be executed on the States collectively, and therefore that such a
Gov^t was necessary as could directly operate on individuals, and would
punish those only whose guilt required it.
M^r Sherman[37] who took his seat today, admitted that the Confederation
had not given sufficient power to Cong^s and that additional powers were
necessary; particularly that of raising money which he said would
involve many other powers. He admitted also that the General &
particular jurisdictions ought in no case to be concurrent. He seemed
however not to be disposed to make too great inroads on the existing
system; intimating as one reason, that it would be wrong to lose every
amendment, by inserting such as would not be agreed to by the States.
[37] "M^r Sherman exhibits the oddest shaped character I
ever remember to have met with. He is awkward, un-meaning,
and unaccountably strange in his manner. But in his train of
thinking there is something regular, deep, and
comprehensive; yet the oddity of his address, the vulgarisms
that accompany his public speaking, and that strange new
England cant which runs through his public as well as his
private speaking make everything that is connected with him
grotesque and laughable;--and yet he deserves infinite
praise,--no Man has a better Heart or a clearer Head. If he
cannot embellish he can furnish thoughts that are wise and
useful. He is an able politician and extremely artful in
accomplishing any particular object;--it is remarked that he
seldom fails. I am told he sits on the Bench in Connecticut,
and is very correct in the discharge of his Judicial
functions. In the early part of his life he was a
Shoe-maker;--but despising the lowness of his condition, he
turned Almanack maker, and so progressed upwards to a Judge.
He has been several years a Member of Congress, and
discharged the duties of his Office with honor and credit to
himself, and advantage to the State he represented. He is
about 60."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 326.
It was moved by M^r Read,[38] 2^{ded} by M^r Ch^s Cotesworth Pinkney,
to postpone the 3^d proposition last offered by M^r Randolph viz that
a national Government ought to be established consisting of a supreme
Legislative Executive and Judiciary, in order to take up the
following,--viz. "Resolved that in order to carry into execution the
Design of the States in forming this Convention, and to accomplish the
objects proposed by the Confederation a more effective Government
consisting of a Legislative, Executive and Judiciary, ought to be
established." The motion to postpone for this purpose was lost:
Yeas. Massachusetts, Connecticut, Delaware, S. Carolina--4.
Nays. N. Y. Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina--4.
[38] "M^r Read is a Lawyer and a Judge;--his legal abilities
are said to be very great, but his powers of Oratory are
fatiguing and tiresome to the last degree;--his voice is
feeble and his articulation so bad that few can have
patience to attend to him. He is a very good Man, and bears
an amiable character with those who know him. Mr. Read is
about 50, of a low stature, and a weak
constitution."--Pierce's Notes, _Id._, iii., 330.
On the question as moved by M^r Butler, on the third proposition it
was resolved in Committee of whole that a national govern^t ought to
be established consisting of a supreme Legislative Executive &
Judiciary,--Mass^{ts} being ay.--Connect.--no. N. York divided (Col.
Hamilton ay. M^r Yates no.) Pen^a ay. Delaware ay. Virg^a ay. N. C. ay.
S. C. ay.
The following Resolution, being the 2^d of those proposed by M^r
Randolph was taken up, viz.--"that the rights of suffrage in the
National Legislature ought to be proportioned to the quotas of
contribution, or to the number of free inhabitants, as the one or the
other rule may seem best in different cases."
M^r Madison[39] observing that the words, "_or to the number of free
inhabitants_," might occasion debates which would divert the Committee
from the general question whether the principle of representation should
be changed, moved that they might be struck out.
[39] "Mr. Madison is a character who has long been in public
life; and what is very remarkable every Person seems to
acknowledge his greatness. He blends together the profound
politician, with the Scholar. In the management of every
great question he evidently took the lead in the Convention,
and tho' he cannot be called an Orator, he is a most
agreeable, eloquent, and convincing Speaker. From a spirit
of industry and application which he possesses in a most
eminent degree, he always comes forward the best informed
Man of any point in debate. The affairs of the United
States, he perhaps, has the most correct knowledge of, of
any Man in the Union. He has been twice a Member of
Congress, and was always thought one of the ablest Members
that ever sat in that Council. Mr. Maddison is about 37
years of age, a Gentleman of great modesty,--with a
remarkable sweet temper. He is easy and unreserved among his
acquaintance, and has a most agreeable style of
conversation."--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 331.
M^r King observed that the quotas of contribution which would alone
remain as the measure of representation, would not answer, because
waving every other view of the matter, the revenue might hereafter be so
collected by the General Gov^t that the sums respectively drawn from the
States would not appear, and would besides be continually varying.
M^r Madison admitted the propriety of the observation, and that some
better rule ought to be found.
Col. Hamilton moved to alter the resolution so as to read "that the
rights of suffrage in the national Legislature ought to be proportioned
to the number of free inhabitiants." M^r Spaight 2^{ded} the motion.
It was then moved that the Resolution be postponed, which was agreed to.
M^r Randolph and M^r Madison then moved the following resolution--"that
the rights of suffrage in the national Legislature ought to be
proportioned."
It was moved and 2^{ded} to amend it by adding "and not according to the
present system"--which was agreed to.
It was then moved & 2^{ded} to alter the resolution so as to read "that
the rights of suffrage in the national Legislature ought not to be
according to the present system."
It was then moved & 2^{ded} to postpone the Resolution moved by M^r
Randolph & M^r Madison, which being agreed to:
M^r Madison, moved, in order to get over the difficulties, the following
resolution--"that the equality of suffrage established by the articles
of Confederation ought not to prevail in the national Legislature, and
"that an equitable ratio of representation ought to be substituted."
This was 2^{ded} by M^r Gov^r Morris, and being generally relished,
would have been agreed to; when,
M^r Reed moved that the whole clause relating to the point of
Representation be postponed; reminding the Com^e that the deputies from
Delaware were restrained by their co[~m]ission from assenting to any
change of the rule of suffrage, and in case such a change should be
fixed on, it might become their duty to retire from the Convention.
M^r Gov^r Morris observed that the valuable assistance of those members
could not be lost without real concern, and that so early a proof of
discord in the Convention as the secession of a State, would add much to
the regret; that the change proposed was however so fundamental an
article in a national Gov^t, that it could not be dispensed with.
M^r Madison observed that whatever reason might have existed for the
equality of suffrage when the Union was a federal one among sovereign
States, it must cease when a National Governm^t should be put into the
place. In the former case, the acts of Cong^s depended so much for their
efficacy on the cooperation of the States, that these had a weight both
within & without Congress, nearly in proportion to their extent and
importance. In the latter case, as the acts of the Gen^l Gov^t would
take effect without the intervention of the State legislatures, a vote
from a small State w^d have the same efficacy & importance as a vote
from a large one, and there was the same reason for different numbers of
representatives from different States, as from Counties of different
extents within particular States. He suggested as an expedient for at
once taking the sense of the members on this point and saving the
Delaware deputies from embarrassment, that the question should be taken
in Committee, and the clause on report to the House, be postponed
without a question there. This however did not appear to satisfy Mr.
Read.
By several it was observed that no just construction of the Act of
Delaware, could require or justify a secession of her deputies, even if
the resolution were to be carried thro' the House as well as the
Committee. It was finally agreed however that the clause should be
postponed: it being understood that in the event the proposed change of
representation would certainly be agreed to, no objection or difficulty
being started from any other quarter than from Delaware.
The motion of Mr. Read to postpone being agreed to,
The Committee then rose. The Chairman reported progress, and the House
having resolved to resume the subject in Committee to-morrow,
Adjourned to 10 O Clock.