greatly astonished at the words which he spake to him, and that
Nicodemus could not understand his words, and asked, how these things
were possible, Christ answered him and said: “Art thou a master of
Israel, and knowest not these things?” From these words of Christ
we can understand, that Christ did not speak of baptism, but that
he spoke to him of things that were comprehended in the law of the
Israelites, namely, the regeneration by the Holy Ghost, in which all
the holy fathers and elect of God, before the coming of Christ, were
regenerated or baptized. For if Christ had spoken of water baptism, as
you papists think, Nicodemus might have said to Christ: I have never
read of a water baptism in the whole law. But now Christ spoke to him
of things that were written in the law, or in the holy Scriptures of
the Old Testament, though he called them by another name, namely, a
regeneration of the water and of the Spirit, though the Holy Ghost
is therein called a water. But Christ thereby wanted to prove to
Nicodemus, in order to astonish him in regard to a matter which he
ought to have known and understood very well, since he was a master
of Israel. Behold, for this reason the regeneration in which Christ
baptizes with the Holy Ghost is only signified by the outward baptism
of water.
_Fr. Corn._ Bah, Jesus, Jesus, how well you can talk, how well your
tongue is hung! Bah, never in all my life did I hear the Scriptures
expounded so strangely, contrary to the views of our mother, the holy
Catholic Roman church, and the ancient teachers and fathers. Bah, now
I am not surprised, that the Anabaptists have made you their teacher,
preacher and bishop; for to hear such sermons, the people of Bruges ran
at so tremendous a rate to the Gruthuysbosch. But I must ask you one
more question: When you Anabaptists have children that remain simple
or idiots, and they grow to be twenty, thirty, forty, yea, eighty, or
ninety years old, do you allow them to die unbaptized, because they
cannot comprehend your belief and doctrine? for one that remains all
his life simple, or an idiot, can certainly not be taught. What do you
do with them at any rate? let us hear once, but briefly; for your long
talk begins to be very irksome to these good sirs, as well as to me,
and it is getting late, and I am tired, that I am.
_Jac._ To such innocent, simple and childish persons belongs the
kingdom of heaven, as Christ says, Matt. 19:14.
_Fr. Corn._ Bah! tush, tush, tush! I say that it is not necessary to
teach men first their confession of faith, before they are baptized,
as you Anabaptists teach and do, when you baptize, or rebaptize; for
though the infants are unlearned in the Christian faith, we Catholics
baptize them upon the faith of the holy church, and because they have
believing parents; therefore they need not be taught first, that they
need not.
_Jac._ Yet Christ says, in the sixteenth chapter of Mark: “Go ye
into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature, He that
believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Here certainly preaching and
believing are mentioned before baptizing. Again, Matt. 28, Christ says:
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them,” etc. Here
certainly teaching is mentioned before baptizing.
_Fr. Corn._ Tush, tush! you are beginning to preach again, are you?
Hence one more question, and then enough. In good faith, if an
unbaptized person of your Anabaptistic church were instructed far
enough in your devil’s faith, to receive baptism, and he should come
to be baptized, and should become so sick and faint as to lose all
self-consciousness, and could therefore not confess his faith before or
in baptism, would you also suffer him to die unbaptized, I suppose you
would? hence your nonsense and twiddle-twaddle deserve no respect or
regard.
_Jac._ Though he should die in that faintness, unbaptized, he would be
saved through his faith; for Christ (Mark 16:16) says: “But he that
believeth not shall be damned.”
_Fr. Corn._ Well, I have no desire to dispute any longer with you.
I shall go my way, and let the executioner dispute with you, with a
burning fagot * * * and afterwards the devil in hell, with burning
pitch, brimstone and tar, see.
_Jac._ No; for Paul writes (2 Cor. 5:1): “If our earthly house of this
tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made
with hands, eternal in the heavens.”
_Fr. Corn._ Bah! in hell, in hell. Expect nothing else than to go
through this temporal fire into the eternal; hell yawns and gasps for
your soul, you accursed, damned Anabaptist that you are, see.
DISPUTATION BETWEEN HERMAN VLECKWIJK, IMPRISONED BY THE LORDS OF THE
COUNTRY VAN DEN VRYE IN BRUGES, AND FRIAR CORNELIS, IN THE PRESENCE OF
MR. JAN VAN DAM, ON THE 1OTH OF MAY, A. D. 1569.
_Fr. Corn._ I would say, Good-day, Herman: but I am quite wrought up
and angry yet from yesterday, at your accursed hedge-preacher, or
teacher, who has so wickedly seduced, deceived, crazed, bedeviled and
bewitched you and your fellow Anabaptists by his damnable, hellish,
Anabaptistic heresies, out there in the miserable Gruthuysbosch. Hence
I must now come here and try whether I can draw you away again from
this Anabaptism, and convert you to our Catholic Christian faith; have
you a mind for it, or not? Let us hear now.
_Herm._ To judge from your speaking, I should think that you are angry,
and if you had not told me yourself, I would have thought, that you
wanted to frighten me. But why are you so angry at that friendly,
pleasant man, who I think did not give you one hard word?
_Fr. Corn._ He nevertheless called me a papist once or twice; but I
do not care * * * for that; but I am very angry that he would in no
wise suffer himself to be converted from his accursed Anabaptism and
all other accursed heresies, in regard to which I have spent so much
labor in vain; and the most vexatious of all is, that though I so well
showed, and convinced him of, his bad, evil, wicked, false, heretical
faith, as these good lords have well heard, it was all of no avail; ill
betide him.
_Herm._ I think, that he nevertheless clearly showed you with the holy
Scriptures, that his faith is in Jesus Christ, the Son of the living
God; whereby then could you show him, that his faith is bad, evil,
wicked, false, and heretical, as you say?
_Fr. Corn._ Fie, alas! I already hear by this answer, that I shall win
no laurels in the way of converting you. But in good faith, do you
people think it enough, only to believe in Jesus Christ? Ah, bah, all
the devils of hell believe in Jesus Christ; bah, see here now, what
we are tormented with. Bah, you ought to, and must also, on pain of
the damnation of your soul, believe in all the other articles of the
Christian faith, and the excellent, holy institutions of our mother the
holy Roman Church, which by our holy fathers, the popes, have in all
general holy councils, been ordained and decreed to be believed and
observed. But you Anabaptists neither believe nor observe anything of
them, except it be very plainly stated in the holy Scriptures; for if
there are any matters contained in the Scriptures, that seem somewhat
obscure to you, you will by no means believe them; as, for instance,
all that is contained in the holy Scriptures concerning prayer for the
refreshing and deliverance of the souls in purgatory; nor all that is
said in them respecting the seven sacraments; nor all that they say
concerning priestly authority; nor all that is found in them regarding
the transubstantiation, or change, of the bread and wine into the real
flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, in the Sacrament of the altar; nor
all that they contain concerning the perpetual virginity and purity of
Mary, the blessed mother of God. No, these and very many other holy
articles you will not believe; yea, what is still more abominable, the
worthy blessed mother of God, whom you ought and are in duty bound
to honor, serve, invoke, and entreat, that she would intercede for
you with her dear Son, her you Anabaptists do not esteem better than
your filthy, * * * sinful wives. And in like manner you despise and
reject all the holy saints and saintesses whom you ought to honor,
fast to them, celebrate, invoke, and entreat, that they would stand
as advocates or mediators between God and you, and intercede for you;
bah! is this not a fine thing? Bah, you are silent: answer me, why you
heretics bear such enmity and hatred to the worthy, blessed mother of
God, and to all God’s saints; let us hear now.
_Herm._ That we should hate Mary the mother of Jesus Christ, and the
saints of God, this be far from us; but that we do not invoke and
entreat them that they should stand as advocates or mediators between
God and us, this is because John, in the second chapter of his first
epistle says: “If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” In
like manner, Paul writes to Timothy, in the second chapter of his first
epistle: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the
man Christ Jesus: who gave himself a ransom for all.” In the same
manner he also writes to the Hebrews, in the ninth chapter. But we do
not hate our enemies; how then should we hate God’s saints, our fellow
brethren and sisters in the Lord?
_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? if they are your fellow brethren and sisters in the
Lord, why then do you bear such enmity and hatred to them, that you
help burn or destroy their relics or bones, and break their images to
pieces, wherever you have been able to get at them? is this not a fine
brotherhood and sisterhood? accursed Anabaptists that you are.
_Herm._ We do not meddle with your affairs; if you would leave us alone
in our faith and in our walk and conversation, as we leave you alone in
your religion, and with your images, relics or dead men’s bones, your
hands would remain unstained with and innocent of our blood. But you
generation of Cain first killed the saints of God, and then take them
to exalt and honor them with fasting and celebrating, and erect to them
idolatrous images, which they themselves despised and rejected, and
you honor their bones, as Christ says, Luke 11:47: Woe unto you! for
ye build the sepulchres of the prophets: and your fathers killed them.
Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they
indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also saith
the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of
them they shall slay and persecute: that the blood of all the prophets
[which was shed from the foundation of the world,] may be required of
this generation; from the blood of Abel. Matt. 23.
_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah! would you * * * accursed Anabaptists compare
yourself to the prophets, apostles, and to God’s holy martyrs, popes
and priests, whose blood was shed for the Catholic, Christian faith,
of which you Anabaptists are now such enemies, that you through the
rejection of the sacrament of the priesthood reject, not only the six
other sacraments, and all our Christian ceremonies and acts of worship,
but also all the articles of the Christian, Catholic faith, as I have
said; therefore you are put to death; do you understand this, you
uncouth, blockheaded Anabaptist that you are?
_Herm._ However uncouth and blockheaded I am, I understand very well
that you put us to death because we do not believe or observe these
popish, or Romish, church articles, part of which you have mentioned.
And you think that you do God service by killing us for it, as Christ
says (John 16:2,3): “They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the
time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God
service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not
known the Father, nor me.”
_Fr. Corn._ Bah! you bewitched and devil-possessed Anabaptist, would
you also fain claim this for your side, would you? Bah, and would
you charge and upbraid us priests and Catholics with such things,
would you? Bah, and would you also say that we priests know neither
God nor his Son Jesus Christ, would you? Ah, bah! who knows God and
Jesus Christ better than we Catholic priests? Hence this is all
spoken concerning the Jewish priests, and concerning the Anabaptists,
Calvinists, Lutherans, and other heretics, who in France and Spain in
these lands and elsewhere, so tyrannically persecute, trouble, torment,
and martyrize us priests, because we have the true knowledge of God and
Christ, see.
_Herm._ It is to be feared that Christ will not know you, though you
think that you know him so very well; for you are of so many different
orders and rules. You are a Franciscan, the other an Augustinian, the
other a Carmelite, the other a Jacobine or Dominican, the other a
Benedictine; yea, innumerable are the orders and sects into which you
are divided, and each has its special ceremonies and rules, according
to which he must live, of which not a word is found in the teaching of
Christ; how then shall he know you!
_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? you hellish, devilish Anabaptist, though we are so
diverse in regard to orders, rules and ceremonies, are we ecclesiastics
not all comprehended in one sacrament of priesthood, eh?
_Herm._ Your sacrament of priesthood is nevertheless an article like
all the other articles of your faith, of which nothing is found written
in the holy Scriptures, hence I have no knowledge of, nor faith in it.
_Fr. Corn._ Ah, you accursed Anabaptist, answer me then, why God the
Father should not be willing to know us, who are his priests, for do
we not daily, in the Mass, offer up his Son Jesus Christ, in flesh and
blood? Bah, whom should they both know better than us, their priests?
What will you say now, eh?
_Herm._ How shall I here tell you the secret of the mass? I do not
myself know it; but you know it very well.
_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? if you do not know the secret of the mass, how
comes it then that you heretics undertake to describe such an accursed
“Death-bed of the mass?” in which it says, that the mass, as it were,
is lying sick of a putrid ulcer, which she has in her canon, and of
which she will have to die. Bah! and do you accursed heretics then not
know the secret of the mass, as you call it? Bah! may the devil skin
you with the “Death-bed of the mass,” accursed Anabaptists that you are.
_Herm._ We have not composed or written the book of the “Death-bed of
the mass,” and do you take it so ill that I speak of the secret of
the mass? is it not a common saying, also among the papists when they
are asked in regard to something which they do not wish to tell, they
generally answer: “I do not want to tell the secret of the mass.”
_Fr. Corn._ Bah! the devil and his mother have introduced this saying
among the laity. I would that all who use it would sink together
through the earth into the abyss of hell, that I would.
_Recorder._ O father Cornelis, the people say it without thinking any
evil by it; I have frequently heard priests say it, and to confess
the truth, I have often said it myself, without any evil thought or
reflection.
_Fr. Corn._ Well, it is enough of it; but, you Anabaptist, answer me
whether you believe, that the real flesh and blood of Christ Jesus are
offered up by us priests in the mass, let us hear.
_Herm._ You must ask me concerning things that are contained in the
holy Scriptures; for I have not studied your faith or religion.
_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? You crazy, bedeviled Anabaptist, and would you
only be asked concerning things that are expressly contained in the
holy Scriptures? Come on then, now I will soundly ask you in regard to
things that are most clearly contained in the holy Scriptures. Bah!
I have heard it said, that you have grown-up children running about
at home, that are still unbaptized, nevertheless Christ, in the third
chapter of John, says to Nicodemus: “Verily, verily, except every man
be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God. Bah, is this not something that is contained in the
holy Scriptures, eh?
_Herm._ When the apostles, according to the command of Christ (Matt.
28), went and taught all nations to believe in Jesus Christ before they
baptize them, did the converts to the faith, in the meantime, while
they were being instructed, also go about unbaptized at home?
_Fr. Corn._ Bah, and if your children should die in the meantime, would
they not go to the devil in hell, I suppose?
_Herm._ No, no more than the children or converts to the faith in the
time of the apostles.
_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah! that was another thing; those children were
circumcised, and thereby they were saved, though they died unbaptized;
bah, here you are in a corner, happen what will, yes, yes, yes!
_Herm._ Those children were not all circumcised; for the faith in Jesus
Christ was preached and taught also among the uncircumcised gentiles;
now I am out of the corner again.
_Fr. Corn._ Indeed? I shall put you in the corner again. Bah! as the
children of the uncircumcised Gentiles, that died without baptism, went
to the devil, so your children that die without baptism also go into
eternal perdition; do you understand this?
_Herm._ Our children that die before baptism certainly do not go into
eternal perdition, any more than did the children of the Old Testament,
that died uncircumcised before the eighth day.
_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah! do you think that the children of the Old
Testament, that died uncircumcised before the eighth day, are saved?
bah, this were a fine thing.
_Herm._ Yes, this we think, without once doubting it, and I am
surprised to hear you doubt it.
_Fr. Com._ Bah, what do you make of the original sin then, which the
children inherit from Adam and Eve, eh?
_Herm._ What do you make of the death of Christ? for John the Baptist
said: “Behold, the Lamb of God, which beareth away the sin of the
world.” John 1:29.
_Fr. Com._ Bah, Christ bears away all the sin of the world, as you
Anabaptists understand, think and believe. Bah, who then shall be
damned? no one, I suppose.
_Herm._ Christ says in the sixteenth chapter of Mark: “He that
believeth not shall be damned;” but he nowhere says: He that is not
baptized (understand, in infancy) shall be damned.
_Fr. Corn._ Bah, here you lie with your vile, false, lying mouth;
for did I not tell you, that in the third chapter of St. John it is
written, that Christ said to Nicodemus: Verily, verily, except every
man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the
kingdom of God? bah! here I have certainly cornered you, have I not, eh?
_Herm._ No; for Christ there speaks of no external baptism, nor
does he mention baptism; but he speaks of the regeneration which is
performed by the Spirit of God, who is sometimes also called a water
in the holy Scriptures. For thus says the Lord by the prophet Isaiah
in the forty-fourth chapter (v. 3): “I will pour water upon him that
is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my Spirit upon
thy seed.” Again, by the prophet Ezekiel, in the thirty-sixth chapter
(verses 25,26): “I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall
be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I
cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will
I put within you.” Again, in the thirty-ninth chapter (v. 29), the
Lord says by Ezekiel: “I have poured out my Spirit upon the house of
Israel.” Again, by the prophet Joel, in the second chapter (v. 28):
“Then will I pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,” etc.
_Fr. Corn._ Well, all this is done through the sacrament of baptism,
when the children are baptized; for then the devil is exorcised by the
priest, and they are cleansed from the original sin, inherited from
Adam and Eve, and they obtain a new heart and a new spirit; bah, thus
does God pour or shed his Spirit upon all flesh; you will not cheat me
out of this--you are cornered and remain cornered, see!
_Herm._ I tell you again, that Christ, when he talked with Nicodemus,
meant such a regeneration as does not concern external baptism, nor
does it children; but it concerns the true believers in Christ, who
are begotten according to the will of God, by the word of truth, as
James says in the first chapter. Again, Peter, in the first chapter of
his first epistle, says: “See that you love one another with a pure
heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of
incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.”
Of similar Scriptures which do not concern little children or external
baptism, there are more yet.
_Fr. Corn._ Bah, but if the regeneration of water and of the Spirit
does not concern children, they must certainly and unmistakably go to
the devil; for you acknowledge yourself, that he who does not believe
will be damned. Bah, children do certainly not believe as you also say.
And when they besides remain unbaptized, and die thus, they must surely
be damned; for by what other way could they be saved, eh?
_Herm._ By the death of Christ, as I have told you. And Christ also
says (Matt. 5:18,19), that to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.
_Fr. Corn._ Yes, these are the same arguments with which your
hedge-preacher yesterday made my spleen run over. Bah, what does all
this disputing and arguing amount to; if you would suffer yourself to
be converted, you must be willing to be taught, and brought to the
Catholic, Christian faith of our mother, the holy Roman church, and
to her baptism and religion. Bah, why will you trust so much in the
heresies of that damned arch-heretic, Menno Simons, and so firmly rely
upon this bewitched hedge-preacher? Bah, why do you not believe me as
well as that Menno Simons? for I am as learned, and have read as much,
and certainly much more, as this * * * bishop, Jacob the weaver, and
as a Dietrick Phillips, and an Ubbo Frisius, and such devil’s brood, I
suppose, eh?
_Herm._ I trust (or build) not upon Menno Simons, nor upon any man; for
the prophet Jeremiah says in his seventeenth chapter (v. 5): Thus saith
the Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man.
_Fr. Corn._ This is very true; in this you say very well, see; if you
begin to talk like this, I feel quite hopeful, that I will convert you
with the help of God, from this miserable Anabaptism. So I will first
prevail upon you, to renounce the same, and to have your unbaptized
children baptized in the Catholic church, by a priest, as a good
Christian is in duty bound to do, see. Well, Herman, what think you of
this, eh?
_Herm._ I do not think that you are the man that will convert me to
your mother, the Roman church, or who will bring me to it, that I shall
have my unbaptized children baptized in the papistic church.
_Fr. Corn._ Ah bah, how do you talk in this strain again; a thousand
devils (God bless us), what has come over you? It seems, as though
he would trust no longer in Menno Simons, nor in any other man; but
as soon as I begin with kindness and friendliness to admonish him to
renounce Anabaptism, and to have his unbaptized children baptized in
our Catholic church, he instantly pipes another tune. Is this not a
fine thing? If you will not be converted, and have your unbaptized
children baptized in our church, after the Catholic rite, you can be
burned alive at the stake, see.
_Herm._ This you papists could also do just as well, even if I turned
from my faith, and had my unbaptized children baptized in your church.
_Fr. Corn._ Be sure, we could; but we would give you the sword. If you
will suffer yourself to be converted with kindness, I insure you the
sword, that I do.
_Herm._ For what purpose should you give me a sword? it would be of no
use to me, for we use no swords.
_Fr. Corn._ Tush, tush, tush! you well understand what I mean by it:
you would only be beheaded with the sword, see.
_Herm._ After I should have truly and unfeignedly confessed, that I
had erred in the faith, and after I should have my unbaptized children
baptized in your church, would I then, according to your saying or
meaning, not be a good, upright Christian?
_Fr. Corn._ Jesus, yes, Herman, and should you not in every manner,
yes, you, faithful Herman, be as good a Christian as any one can be?
This is what I like to hear, see.
_Herm._ And would you papists make no sin of it, to shed the blood of
such a good, upright Christian?
_Fr. Corn._ Fie, tush, tush, tush, bah, is it nothing else? You would
have to die nevertheless, because of your having apostatized from the
Catholic Christian faith, and having yourself rebaptized, see.
_Herm._ The shepherd of the hundred sheep, of whom Christ speaks in the
fifteenth chapter of Luke, did nevertheless not cut the throat of the
lost or strayed sheep, when he had found it; but he laid it upon his
shoulders, and carried it home rejoicing.
_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah! what is the use of all this raving and prating? if
you want to be converted, be converted, and recant; what shall I say of
this? Bah, I should sooner convert the devil in hell and his mother,
than I could convert one of these obdurate, petrified Anabaptists; this
I swear to you, that I do.