of God, as Paul writes concerning him, in the second chapter of his
second epistle to the Thessalonians: “Let no man deceive you by any
means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, who
opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that
is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing
himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you,
I told you these things?”
_Fr. Corn._ Hush, hush, you have preached enough; here you are not
in the Gruthuysbosch, nor do I sit down to hear you preach. Bah! you
accursed Anabaptist, would you apply the prophecy of St. Paul to our
holy father the Pope? * * * Hear this accursed heretic once; how he
understands St. Paul. Bah! St. Paul thereby means the antichrist; that
he does.
_Jac._ I too believe that Paul thereby means antichrist. But does not
the Pope of Rome do the very works of antichrist? Does he not command
you, that you are not to marry? Does he not command you to abstain
from meats which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of
them which believe? as Paul writes in the fourth chapter of his first
epistle to Timothy.
_Fr. Corn._ The devil sits in your cheeks; the devil and his mother
play with your ugly mouth, that you know how to twist all the holy
Scriptures according to your heretical notions, and to turn them on
your thumb. But just wait, I shall show you very well, that our holy
father the Pope is the vicar of God: for did not Christ say to St.
Peter; “Feed my sheep;” and that upon him he would build his church?
And did he not also give to St. Peter the keys of heaven, and all
priestly authority, to loose from sin, and to bind, or to remit and to
retain? And do not the holy popes sit upon the same seat, as successors
of St. Peter, and have the same command and the priestly authority
of the keys of heaven, to forgive sins and to retain them, through
absolution after confession? What do you say to this now? let us hear.
_Jac._ Christ said, that upon this rock (that is, upon such a faith
as Peter confessed, Matt. 17:16) he would build his church; he said
nothing about a seat, or of vicars, or of successors, or popes, or of
priestly authority.
_Fr. Corn._ He certainly spoke of the keys of heaven, and of loosing
and binding. And if there were no pope, or high priest, nor sub-priests
who then should have the authority, to hear confession, to absolve, and
to forgive sins? scavengers, etc., I suppose.
_Jac._ Christ is our only true high-priest, as Paul writes to the
Hebrews, in the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th chapters.
_Fr. Corn._ That is just where I wanted to have you; for if St. Paul
thereby means that besides Christ no other high priests or common
priests are necessary, why then does he say in the fourth chapter of
the first epistle to the Corinthians: I will that every one so account
of us, as of Christ’s priests over the sacraments of God? that is,
administer the sacraments of the altar, of baptism, of confirmation,
of extreme unction, of marriage, of confession and absolution, of
penitence, and of consecrating and anointing priests. What do you hold
concerning priestly estate, or the sacrament of the priesthood? Let us
hear.
_Jac._ Next to Christ, we believers in Christ are all priests alike,
according to the words of Peter in the second chapter (9th verse) of
his first epistle, where he says to the believers in Christ: “But ye
are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation.” Again,
Rev. 1:5,6: “Christ who loved us, and washed us from our sins in his
own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father.”
Again, Rev. 5:9,10: “For thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us [to God]
by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
and hast made us unto our God kings and priests.”
_Fr. Corn._ Tush, tush! now you begin to preach again, do you? keep
silence, or reply to me in regard to what St. Paul writes in the fourth
chapter of his first epistle to the Corinthians: I will that every one
so account of us, as of Christ’s priests over the sacraments of God.
Answer to this. * * *
_Jac._ With your permission, Paul does not write as you say, and hence
there is nothing to answer to it.
_Fr. Corn._ O you cursed Anabaptist that you are; I could swear by
the saints, that St. Paul writes as I say: what do you say of this
accursed, hellish, devilish heretic?
_Jac._ The Lord God forgive you this judging and cursing, and do not
account it to your own condemnation. Christ also says (Matt. 5), do not
swear an oath; but let your communication be, Yea, yea, Nay, nay.
_Fr. Corn._ Bah, this means that one is not to swear a false oath; but
what I would swear is true. But you Anabaptists also have the fancy,
that you are not to swear any manner of oaths. Bah, what a lousy fancy
this is! I should like to hear why one may not swear a good oath.
_Jac._ Because Christ, in Matt. 5, says: “Ye have heard that it hath
been said to them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but
shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: but I say unto you, Swear not
at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: nor by the earth;
for it is his footstool. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay,
nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.” In like manner,
also James says, in the fifth chapter (v. 12): “But above all things,
my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth,
neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay:
lest you fall into condemnation.”
_Fr. Corn._ Is it true? in this you would follow St. James; but when
he in the same chapter speaks of the sacrament of extreme unction,
saying: Is any sick, call for the priests of the church, and cause him
to be anointed; and also, where, in the same chapter, he speaks of the
sacrament of confession; herein you heretics are not willing to follow
him. I have asked you once or twice, what you think of confession, and
of the power of absolution, or remission and retention of sins; but you
do not reply to me in regard to this.
_Jac._ You answer yourself, saying: “Who then should have the authority
of hearing confession, absolving, and forgiving sins? scavengers, etc.,
I suppose.” For since you supposed the same I left it to you to answer.
_Fr. Corn._ Well, answer me then now, what you think of the sacrament
of confession and absolution.
_Jac._ My answer is: If you would take and understand confession (which
you papists now use) from the fifth chapter of James, you must also
confess your sins to him that confesses his sins to you; for James
says: “Confess your faults one to another.” Now if I confess to you all
my sins, will you also confess your sins to me? I think not, and that
you yourself would much rather acknowledge and say, that James did not
mean such a confession as you papists now employ.
_Fr. Corn._ * * * You accursed Anabaptist that you are. You seek
nothing but to tangle up everything that is advanced against you--the
devil wags your tongue. But let us hear what you can say against this,
where Christ says: “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” Matt. 8:4.
_Jac._ This Christ said to those whom he had healed and cleansed from
leprosy, that they should go and show their bodies to the priests and
let them see, that they were clean again, in order that they might go
among the people again, from whom they had been separated on account of
their leprosy. Matthew 8:4; Luke 17:14.
_Fr. Corn._ * * * Bah, it was plainly said: Go and confess to the
priest; for so our mother the holy Catholic Roman church understands
it. This was the reason why Christ gave his vicar, St. Peter the keys,
that he might also have the power to bind and loose from sin, or to
forgive and to retain, after confession as I told you. Hence, answer me
once, but in a few words, without much preaching, see!
_Jac._ From this power of the keys, which Christ gave Peter, it is not
to be understood, that you priests in popery have power to forgive or
to retain sin.
_Fr. Corn._ Is it true? would accursed heretic say that the power which
Christ gave his successor or vicar, St. Peter, does not pertain to us
priests? What! no! do not the popes, as the successors of St. Peter,
who sit in his seat, and we priests, still have the power as well as
did the scribes and Pharisees, as the successors of Moses, who at the
time of Christ still sat in Moses’ seat? of whom Christ says, in the
twenty-third chapter (vs. 1, 2) of Matthew’s gospel: “The scribes and
the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: all therefore whatsoever they bid you
observe, that observe and do. What do you say to this, eh? Let us hear
it.
_Jac._ With your permission, but do not get angry; for I should have
been afraid of incurring your abuse, if I had compared you to the
scribes and Pharisees; but since you compare yourselves to them, I will
reply to you. What Christ means is this: Whatsoever they command you to
do from the law of Moses, that do. But he also commands his disciples,
in Matt. 16:6, that they should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
And though the Pharisees and scribes should have boasted themselves of
the power which Moses had, as you priests boast of having the power
which Peter received from Christ, of forgiving sin, who would have
believed the Pharisees? since Christ pronounces woe over them so many
times, Matt. 23: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for
ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in
yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto
you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses,
and for a pretence make long prayers. Woe unto you,” etc.
_Fr. Corn._ Fie, tush, tush; hear all this preaching. Bah, I know
myself quite well, that Christ cries woe, woe, but do you think, that I
have come here to hear preaching? I can preach myself, that I can.
_Jac._ Still, you desired that I should reply to your comparison
between the authority of the Pharisees and that of you priests.
_Fr. Corn._ Ah, bah! do you think you can satisfy me with such a meagre
answer? By no means * * * we priests do not care for this; though
the scribes and Pharisees were not of much account, their authority
was none the less, on that account; and just so it is also with our
priestly authority, after confession to absolve from and forgive, or to
retain, sin, see!
_Jac._ What authority has a man that is already himself excluded from
heaven, to help another into it: for Christ says, Matt. 5:20: “Except
your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and
Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” How
shall an unrighteous man forgive the sins of one whose righteousness is
greater than his own?
_Fr. Corn._ My lord the inquisitor wrote truly enough from Kortrijk,
where you were born, that your tongue was well hung, and that it was
labor lost to dispute against you. In troth, if you are so exceedingly
opposed to all priestly authority, and say, that all men that believe,
yea, even your wives and children, are all priests, why do you have
more episcopal authority than the other Anabaptists? For you are their
bishop, teacher and preacher. You rebaptize them, lay your hands upon
their heads, and endow them all alike with the Holy Ghost, as they
think. Hence, let us hear what you yourself think of your episcopal
authority; for no one can lawfully administer the sacrament of
confirmation, unless he be a bishop, or at least a suffragan. Hence,
let us hear once, how you administer the sacrament of confirmation, and
what you think of it.
_Jac._ I know nothing to say of episcopal authority, or of
confirmation. How then should I administer it, or what should I think
of it; for confirmation is a bugbear about which I know nothing.
_Fr. Corn._ Is it possible, do you Anabaptists call the sacrament of
confirmation a bugbear? Ah, accursed heretic, the devil take you into
the fire of hell, to burn you forever; see!
_Jac._ Do not get so angry and excited, for I call it a strange
bugbear, because it is so unknown to me. But tell me what it is, and
what you hold concerning it; then I can tell you better what I think of
it.
_Fr. Corn._ Bah, this blockhead presumes to be a bishop of the
Anabaptists, and does not yet know what the sacrament of confirmation
is. If you are a bishop, you ought to confirm yourself. My lords, see
once, what a fine bishop the Anabaptists have had out there in the
Gruthuysbosch, who preached so many sermons there; is it not a fine
bishop, teacher and preacher? Bah, see once, with what we have been
vexed and tormented * * *
_Jac._ I am no bishop, nor do I consider myself a teacher; but I have
sometimes led the brethren and sisters and converts of our church, with
exhortation from the word of God or the holy Scriptures, according to
my small ability.
_Fr. Corn._ Bah, you are a fine leader, that you do not yet know the
sacrament of confirmation. Confirmation is, that the bishop or the
suffragan anoints the grown children, and sometimes also adult persons
(that are not yet confirmed) with the holy chrism on their forehead,
and gives them a blow on the cheek, in token that they should remember
that they have been confirmed; which confirmation signifies the
confirmation of baptism. Now you will understand or know it, I think.
_Jac._ Just as little as before, since I also do not know what chrism
and the confirmation of baptism are.
_Fr. Corn._ It seems that you know nothing concerning the Christian
religion; so does the devil hold you by the throat. And you presume
nevertheless to be a teacher and preacher of the Anabaptists. Bah, is
it not a shame, that you have to be taught yourself yet, how children
are confirmed, and that chrism is a substance mixed together of holy,
consecrated things, which must not be told you? and that one has to
teach you yet, that confirmation signifies the imposition of the
priest’s hands, as the apostles laid their hands upon them that were
baptized. Do you not yet understand it, blockhead that you are?
_Jac._ In the nineteenth chapter of Acts we read, that, after Paul had
caused some Christian believers to be baptized at Ephesus, and had then
laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came down upon them, and they
spake with tongues, and prophesied. Hence I do not believe that your
confirmation or chrism, and your blow on the cheek, have anything in
common with the imposition of the hands of the apostles.
_Fr. Corn._ Is it possible, so outspoken? you accursed Anabaptist,
though you do not believe it, the sacrament of confirmation is
therefore not one whit worse, for we Catholics believe it so much the
more. My lords, what do you say of this accursed Anabaptist? for he
does not believe in anything, that he don’t.
_Recorder._ Suffer yourself to be instructed, Jacob, and believe that
which a Christian ought to believe, and don’t argue so much.
_Jac._ My lords, with your permission, I only answer to all his
questions, and I believe only that which is written in the holy
Scriptures.
_Fr._ Corn. Do you? * * * for you do not believe, that St. Paul,
in the beginning of the fourth chapter of his first epistle to the
Corinthians, writes: I will that every one so account of us, as of
priests of Christ over the sacraments of God. And as I said, St.
James writes the same, in his fifth chapter: Is any sick, call for
the priests of the church; and let them pray over him, and anoint him
with oil in the name of the Lord. Are we priests then not dispensers
or administrators of God’s sacraments? and you say now, that you
believe in all that is written in the holy Scriptures. It remains now
to be seen or heard, what you believe concerning the sacrament of holy
unction, of which St. James writes, as I tell you. Let us hear once.
_Jac._ I do not believe that the anointing with oil of which James
writes has anything in common with the oil with which you anoint the
sick among you; for the oil of which James writes healed the sick, as
did also the oil concerning which Mark writes in the sixth chapter,
that the apostles anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed
them. But however much you priests adjure and conjure your oil, it can
nevertheless not heal the sick; hence, that was another oil, than your
oil which you call a sacrament.
_Fr. Corn._ A thousand devils (God bless us) what ails this hellish
heretic now, that he makes sorcery of our reading, consecrating,
blessing, and sanctifying over the sacrament of extreme unction. You
bewitched, bedeviled, possessed Anabaptist, have reproved me once,
because I cursed and condemned you; but I should go at you quite
differently yet, in cursing, condemning and anathematizing you; but you
are not worthy that I should so incense and excite myself about you.
Therefore I tell you, yes, we Catholics call holy unction a sacrament,
and regard it as a sacrament, and it is a sacrament, in spite of your
mouth. Do you understand this, you bewitched, accursed Anabaptist, that
you are?
_Jac._ If you want to imitate all the things which the apostles did,
and regard them all as sacraments, why do you not also regard your
aprons or handkerchiefs as sacraments, and lay them upon the sick, as
Paul did? For what greater sacredness was there in the oil of which
James writes, than in Paul’s aprons, by which he also healed the sick,
as is written in the nineteenth chapter of the Acts of the apostles?
_Fr. Corn._ If the devil does not wag your tongue, I do not understand
the matter. You accursed Anabaptists may yourselves make a sacrament of
your filthy handkerchiefs or aprons; for you people have no sacrament,
but we Catholics have seven sacraments; is it not enough, eh?
_Jac._ Yea, in troth; for since the term sacrament is not once
mentioned in the holy Scriptures, you have only seven too many.
_Fr. Corn._ Bah, does not St. Paul call marriage a sacrament? And he
does not bestow too much honor upon marriage, when he says, in the
fifth chapter to the Ephesians: This sacrament is great. Would you
reject this honor, put it from you, and trample upon it with your feet,
I suppose?
_Jac._ Paul says: Two shall be one flesh; this is a great mystery. Eph.
5:31,32. If you want to make sacraments of all the mysteries, I am
surprised that you have only seven sacraments.
_Fr. Corn._ It is easy to hear, that you Anabaptists do not esteem
marriage very highly; for, if we priests should say, that priesthood
only is a sacrament, and marriage not, I think you would reply: Show
us where priesthood is called a sacrament, as is marriage. But when
I consider the matter well, you Anabaptists do not observe marriage,
since you have the women and maidens in common, and run together
promiscuously, like dogs, the father with his daughter, the mother with
her son, the brother with his sister, just like the beasts--is this not
a fine thing?
_Jac._ With your permission, don’t get incensed, we are slandered in
regard to this.
_Fr. Corn._ Ah bah! would you deny it, what ails you?
_Jac._ If it were true, I would not deny it; but this can never be said
with truth of us.
_Fr. Corn._ Bah, bah! this is the most aggravating monstrosity yet. I
thought you would go and show or prove to me from the Holy Scriptures,
that the women may be had in common; and do you now want to deny it,
eh!
_Jac._ But should I not deny those things that are lies?
_Fr. Corn._ This miserable Anabaptist would give me the lie. But do you
think you can swindle me out of a matter which I so certainly know to
be true? Bah, why will you deny it, seeing you have already so flatly
denied the five sacraments, which is a hundred thousand times worse and
more damnable, than to make common all the women and maidens of the
whole world, that it is.
_Jac._ You are very wrong in accusing us with it; for it is something
of which we are innocent.
_Fr. Corn._ Ah bah, now it is getting to be downright idiocy with this
denying. I am mad and indignant enough to jump right out of my skin,
that this accursed Anabaptist here would deny a matter so public, and
known to all the world. Ah bah, I will stake my neck, that I have
preached more than a hundred times, that you Anabaptists have the women
and maidens in common, and that you also sever the marriage tie, giving
to one man, when he is tired of his wife, another man’s wife; and, in
like manner, to one woman, when she is tired of her husband, another
woman’s husband. Don’t I know these things, eh?
_Jac._ I have heard it said sometimes, that a certain Friar Cornelis
here, often preaches such things concerning us: is it you, permit me to
ask?
_Fr. Corn._ Yes, I am Friar Cornelis, who preaches such things
concerning you. Just take a good look at me. I ought to know that I am
the man; and I will also clearly show to you, that I preach it with
truth; for were they not Anabaptists who at Amsterdam, and elsewhere
in Holland, ran stark naked through the streets, men and women, young
maidens and boys, and said to one another: My spirit desires your
flesh; eh?
_Jac._ Those were not of our brethren; for formerly there were such
false brethren, as David Joris and Hendrick Nicolaus, who taught these
things in secret, and said that no one might have anything as his own,
and that therefore, no one might marry a wife for himself, but that
women ought to be had in common. Others also wanted to prove from the
Scriptures, that women that are unmannered or disorderly might be
abandoned.
_Fr. Corn._ * * * Ah; bah, why would you deny, that you Anabaptists
have the women in common. They certainly were Anabaptists, who,
at Amsterdam, forcibly took possession of the city hall, and who
overpowered and took the city of Munster, and afterwards were besieged,
bombarded, stormed, defeated, captured, and put to death, with their
king, Jan Beukelss, a tailor of Leyden. They certainly had the women
in common, yea, not only the women, but also the property; yea, they
robbed churches and convents, in Holland, Friesland, and Gelderland.
Why would you then say, that these also were not of your brethren? You
must be an idiot, I think.
_Jac._ These all belonged to the same (strange) false brethren; for
as they taught, that women might not be held as own, so they also
taught that property might not be owned individually, but was to be
held in common, and that the property of the papists belonged to the
Christians, and that they might seize it wherever they could, in order
thereby to exterminate the ungodly with the external sword, and to
abolish all government, in order thus to set up a new kingdom of Christ
in this world. And through these this unchristian report has unjustly
come upon us.
_Fr. Corn._ Is it possible? It remains to be seen yet, whether this
evil report has unjustly come upon you. If you Anabaptists also had a
head, like the Calvinists, you would persecute, trouble, torment, and
martyrize us Catholics just as they do; this I swear to you. Well,
enough of this; but that you would deny, that you Anabaptists have
the women in common, this I cannot take in, or swallow. You may deny,
twist, sneak, dive, and cover up as much as you will, but you shall not
swindle me out of it, that you shall not.
_Jac._ We are not the only ones that have to bear this from you; for
you also often preach, I understand, that the Calvinists have the women
in common.
_Fr. Corn._ And so they do; for in the point of having the women in
common they agree with the Anabaptists. Ah, bah, don’t I know what the
Calvinists and Calvinistresses do when they blow out the candles after
they have held their accursed, devilish supper. Bah, you want to teach
me how to preach, I suppose; see.
_Jac._ If this were true, it would certainly now be known to all the
world; for the Calvinists have had public churches, in which they have
preached, and held the supper; and if they had undertaken to put forth
such things in them, in regard to having the women in common, as you
say, what strange things would be noised abroad through every country.
_Fr. Corn._ O you accursed Anabaptist, and will you now also begin
to upbraid me with slandering the accursed Calves-tails,[307] eh?
Don’t I say that they do this together, after they have held their
devil’s supper when the candles have been extinguished? bah, what
strange things can be said of a matter which no one can see? But you
Anabaptists, tell us something about your supper; or don’t you have
any, I suppose, since you don’t know anything to say about sacraments?
Hence, speak, and let us hear: What do you hold concerning the
sacrament of the altar?
[307] A term of derision chosen because of its assonance, in the
original (_Calversteerten_ and _Calversteerinnnen_), to the name
Calvinists.--TRANSL.
_Jac._ I have never seen nor read this name in the holy Scriptures;
hence I can say nothing about it.