A representative of Madras Mail called on Mr. M.K. Gandhi at his
temporary residence in the Pursewalkam High road for an interview on
the subject of non-co-operation. Mr. Gandhi, who has come to Madras
on a tour to some of the principal Muslim centres in Southern India,
was busy with a number of workers discussing his programme; but he
expressed his readiness to answer questions on the chief topic which
is agitating Muslims and Hindus.
"After your experience of the Satyagraha agitation last year, Mr.
Gandhi, are you still hopeful and convinced of the wisdom of advising
non-co-operation?"--"Certainly."
"How do you consider conditions have altered since the Satyagraha
movement of last year?"--"I consider that people are better disciplined
now than they were before. In this I include even the masses who I have
had opportunities of seeing in large numbers in various parts of
the country."
"And you are satisfied that the masses understand the spirit of
Satyagraha?"--"Yes."
"And that is why you are pressing on with the programme of
non-co-operation?"--"Yes. Moreover, the danger that attended the civil
disobedience part of Satyagraha does not apply to non-co-operation,
because in non-co-operation we are not taking up civil disobedience of
laws as a mass movement. The result hitherto has been most encouraging.
For instance, people in Sindh and Delhi in spite of the irritating
restrictions upon their liberty by the authorities have carried out the
Committee's instructions in regard to the Seditious Meetings
Proclamation and to the prohibition of posting placards on the walls
which we hold to be inoffensive but which the authorities consider to be
offensive."
"What is the pressure which you expect to bring to bear on the
authorities if co-operation is withdrawn?"--"I believe, and everybody
must grant, that no Government can exist for a single moment without the
co-operation of the people, willing or forced, and if people suddenly
withdraw their co-operation in every detail, the Government will come to
a stand-still."
"But is there not a big 'If' in it?"--"Certainly there is."
"And how do you propose to succeed against the big 'If'?"--"In my plan
of campaign expediency has no room. If the Khilafat movement has really
permeated the masses and the classes, there must be adequate response
from the people."
"But are you not begging the question?"--"I am not begging the question,
because so far as the data before me go, I believe that the Muslims
keenly feel the Khilafat grievance. It remains to be seen whether their
feeling is intense enough to evoke in them the measure of sacrifice
adequate for successful non-co-operation."
"That is, your survey of the conditions, you think, justifies your
advising non-co-operation in the full conviction that you have behind
you the support of the vast masses of the Mussalman population?"--"Yes."
"This non-co-operation, you are satisfied, will extend to complete
severance of co-operation with the Government?"--No; nor is it at the
present moment my desire that it should. I am simply practising
non-co-operation to the extent that is necessary to make the Government
realise the depth of popular feeling in the matter and the
dissatisfaction with the Government that all that could be done has not
been done either by the Government of India or by the Imperial
Government, whether on the Khilafat question or on the "Punjab
question."
"Do you Mr. Gandhi, realise that even amongst Mahomedans there are
sections of people who are not enthusiastic over non-co-operation
however much they may feel the wrong that has been done to their
community?"--"Yes. But their number is smaller than those who are
prepared to adopt non-co-operation."
"And yet does not the fact that there has not been an adequate response
to your appeal for resignation of titles and offices and for boycott of
elections of the Councils indicate that you may be placing more faith
in their strength of conviction than is warranted?"--"I think not; for
the reason that the stage has only just come into operation and our
people are always most cautious and slow to move. Moreover, the first
stage largely affects the uppermost strata of society, who represent a
microscopic minority though they are undoubtedly an influential body
of people."
"This upper class, you think, has sufficiently responded to your
appeal?"--"I am unable to say either one way or the other at present. I
shall be able to give a definite answer at the end of this month."...
"Do you think that without one's loyalty to the King and the Royal
Family being questioned, one can advocate non-co-operation in connection
with the Royal visit?" "Most decidedly; for the simple reason that if
there is any disloyalty about the proposed boycott of the Prince's
visit, it is disloyalty to the Government of the day and not to the
person of His Royal highness."
"What do you think is to be gained by promoting this boycott in
connection with the Royal visit?"--"Because I want to show that the
people of India are not in sympathy with the Government of the day and
that they strongly disapprove of the policy of the Government in regard
to the Punjab and Khilafat, and even in respect of other important
administrative measures. I consider that the visit of the Prince of
Wales is a singularly good opportunity to the people to show their
disapproval of the present Government. After all, the visit is
calculated to have tremendous political results. It is not to be a
non-political event, and seeing that the Government of India and the
Imperial Government want to make the visit a political event of first
class importance, namely, for the purpose of strengthening their hold
upon India, I for one, consider that it is the bounden duty of the
people to boycott the visit which is being engineered by the two
Governments in their own interest which at the present moment is totally
antagonistic to the people."
"Do you mean that you want this boycott promoted because you feel that
the strengthening of the hold upon India is not desirable in the best
interests of the country?"--"Yes. The strengthening of the hold of a
Government so wicked as the present one is not desirable for the best
interests of the people. Not that I want the bond between England and
India to become loosened for the sake of loosening it but I want that
bond to become strengthened only in so far as it adds to the welfare
of India."
"Do you think that non-co-operation and the non-boycott of the
Legislative Councils consistent?"--"No; because a person who takes up
the programme of non-co-operation cannot consistently stand for
Councils."
"Is non-co-operation, in your opinion, an end in itself or a means to an
end, and if so, what is the end?" "It is a means to an end, the end
being to make the present Government just, whereas it has become mostly
unjust. Co-operation with a just Government is a duty; non-co-operation
with an unjust Government is equally a duty."
"Will you look with favour upon the proposal to enter the Councils and
to carry on either obstructive tactics or to decline to take the oath of
allegiance consistent with your non-co-operation?"--"No; as an accurate
student of non-co-operation, I consider that such a proposal is
inconsistent with the true spirit of non-co-operation. I have often said
that a Government really thrives on obstruction and so far as the
proposal not to take the oath of allegiance is concerned, I can really
see no meaning in it; it amounts to a useless waste of valuable time
and money."
"In other words, obstruction is no stage in non-co-operation?"
--"No,"....
"Are you satisfied that all efforts at constitutional agitation have
been exhausted and that non-co-operation is the only course left us?" "I
do not consider non-co-operation to be unconstitutional remedies now
left open to us, non-co-operation is the only one left for us." "Do you
consider it constitutional to adopt it with a view merely to paralyse
Government?"--"Certainly, it is not unconstitutional, but a prudent man
will not take all the steps that are constitutional if they are
otherwise undesirable, nor do I advise that course. I am resorting to
non-co-operation in progressive stages because I want to evolve true
order out of untrue order. I am not going to take a single step in
non-co-operation unless I am satisfied that the country is ready for
that step, namely, non-co-operation will not be followed by anarchy or
disorder."
"How will you satisfy yourself anarchy will not follow?"
"For instance, if I advise the police to lay down their arms, I shall
have satisfied myself that we are able by voluntary assistance to
protect ourselves against thieves and robbers. That was precisely what
was done in Lahore and Amritsar last year by the citizens by means of
volunteers when the Military and the police had withdrawn. Even where
Government had not taken such measures in a place, for want of adequate
force, I know people have successfully protected themselves."
"You have advised lawyers to non-co-operate by suspending their
practice. What is your experience? Has the lawyers' response to your
appeal encouraged you to hope that you will be able to carry through
all stages of non-co-operation with the help of such people?"
"I cannot say that a large number has yet responded to my appeal. It is
too early to say how many will respond. But I may say that I do not rely
merely upon the lawyer class or highly educated men to enable the
Committee to carry out all the stages of non-co-operation. My hope lies
more with the masses so far as the later stages of non-co-operation are
concerned."
_August 1920_.