Mr. DULLES. Yes; let's take it in that period.
Mrs. PAINE. I knew he was occupied with looking for a job.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. How much of the day this occupied him, of course, I didn't
know. I didn't see him. Then he got the job, and I judge that occupied
him more fully. He spoke of one evening meeting he went to, this
National Indignation Committee meeting.
Mr. DULLES. What about other evenings? Do you know anything about other
evenings when he wasn't with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Except for the one in which he accompanied my husband to a
Civil Liberties Union meeting.
Mr. DULLES. All right.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you, at any stage of your life while you were, whether
living with your husband or apart from him, did you ever contemplate
inviting anyone to come and live with you in anything like the manner
in which you did invite Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. My mother completed her studies at Oberlin College in
February, and we talked----
Mr. JENNER. February 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No; just now, February of 1964 and we talked about the
possibility as long ago as last summer of 1963, we talked about the
possibility of her coming and staying for several months. I said I was
tired of living alone. This is not exactly comparable, but it also is a
search for a roommate.
Mr. McCLOY. But apart from your mother, there was no one similarly
situated to Marina, whom you thought of inviting to live with you?
Mrs. PAINE. No one situated similarly that I knew either.
Mr. McCLOY. No; you didn't invite anyone?
Mrs. PAINE. Didn't make any other such invitation.
Mr. McCLOY. Anyone to live with you.
Mr. JENNER. Before returning to the automobile and somewhat along the
tail end at least of Representative Boggs' inquiries of you, did you
ever give any consideration, Mrs. Paine, to the possibility that Lee
Harvey Oswald might have been employed by some agency of the Government
of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. I never gave that any consideration.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. None whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. It never occurred to you at any time?
Mrs. PAINE. It never occurred to me at any time.
Mr. JENNER. That is all on that.
Was the absence of its occurring to you based on your overall judgment
of Lee Harvey Oswald and his lack, as you say, of, not a highly
intelligent man?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There was some reason why you gave it no thought, is that
correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That, and he was not in a position to know anything of use
to either Government. I am questioning myself.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please elaborate?
Mrs. PAINE. As regards he might be a Soviet agent, what does this
man know that would be of interest to anybody or what could you find
out, and you judge he didn't know anything that the Soviets might
be interested in, and, as I say, I never gave it any thought of the
possibility of his being employed by this Government.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Representative Ford, Mrs. Paine had been relating to
us her experiences with Lee Harvey Oswald with respect to his ability
to operate an automobile, and she has up to this moment revealed some
things to us which we had not known of and it is something that is
causing the staff considerable concern. This is his ability to drive
which is a proper connection with his visit to Mexico in some one or
two instances and also his escape or his attempted escape and other
elements.
We interrupted the chronology to have Mrs. Paine state fully everything
she knows on this particular subject.
Representative FORD. It is important.
Mr. JENNER. If we can recall just about where you were because I
would like to have you pick it up just exactly where you were in this
chronology.
Mrs. PAINE. I had about completed the full statement of what I saw of
his driving.
I will pick up by repeating when he turned a right angle corner
he would turn too far and have to correct. I will complete now by
describing my teaching him to park.
Mr. JENNER. Was this on that same Sunday afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. There were, I think, three altogether, but I am not
certain. This is the only particular reference.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, but I think, Mr. Chairman, Representative Ford,
Mrs. Paine has related to us something we had not known, that this
Sunday afternoon----
Mrs. PAINE. October 13.
Mr. JENNER. October 13, when she sought to instruct Lee Harvey Oswald
on the local parking lot--was it by a shopping center?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That he had gotten into the car, in the driveway, with the
key, and had turned on the motor of the car, had backed it up into the
street.
Mrs. PAINE. And then proceeded to drive to the shopping center.
Mr. JENNER. With Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. While I complained.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine complaining because she was concerned; she is
the daughter of an insurance actuary.
Mrs. PAINE. In my complaint I simply said that I would drive back, and
that I didn't want him to drive on the street, but I didn't insist that
he stop at that moment.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mrs. PAINE. I recall one other afternoon when he practiced just parking
directly in front of our house, and when, as I say, after he had done
this he wanted me to drive the car into the driveway, that being a
little harder to do.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you keep your car ordinarily, in the driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Always in the driveway in front of our house; the garage
itself is too full of many other things.
Mr. JENNER. Did you leave the key in the car?
Mrs. PAINE. I never leave the key in the car; I always lock it.
Mr. JENNER. That was your habit with respect to the ignition key?
Mrs. PAINE. I always lock the car and leave the ignition key in my
purse.
Mr. JENNER. You never leave the ignition key around your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, my purse was in the home.
Mr. JENNER. So it was not in the open?
Mrs. PAINE. He had to go in the purse, never. Just how he got the car
started, I recall my shock that he had. But I must have laid out the
key or something because I did not intend for him to start it.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't give him the key on that occasion to go out and
start the motor?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely not.
Mr. JENNER. But when you came out of the house he had already started
the motor and backed the car into the street?
Mrs. PAINE. No, no; I let him back it out.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mrs. PAINE. I was deciding what I was going to do.
Mr. DULLES. You were in the car at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had gotten in the car at that time.
Representative FORD. And he was in the driver's seat?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he in the driver's seat when you came out of the house?
Mrs. PAINE. That is my recollection. Then, referring now to the
practice of his parking.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Representative Ford, the witness had also
related to us, which we had not known, when she came to New Orleans in
the spring to bring Marina from Irving to New Orleans, that Lee Harvey
Oswald told her that he had driven his uncle's car, one of the Murrets,
in New Orleans on the street.
Go ahead.
Representative FORD. Perhaps I should say that I have been absent for
a half hour or so attending a very important committee meeting, so I
didn't get this story from the outset and I appreciate being brought up
to date on it.
Mrs. PAINE. There were two occasions when we practiced parking, one in
the larger parking lot just backing into, pretending there were cars
there to back between, as in parallel parking, and another occasion
directly in front of my house. On this second occasion directly in
front of my house he finally learned how to do it. He had had a bad
time, getting his wheels too cramped and not getting in, and getting
his wheels straightened out, a beginner's mistakes.
Finally, I got into the car and told him when to start reversing the
twist on his wheel and cramp, and he said, so soon. It was a surprise.
It didn't feel to him it was time already to start coming out of the
turn.
And then he saw that it was when he then got into the parking place
correctly, and quite soon got the feel of it but this was clearly his
first experience doing it right, and then he practiced doing it right
several times, and he learned quite well, I thought.
(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)
Representative FORD. On these subsequent occasions did he ask you to
help him or did he take the keys and do it on his own initiative?
Mrs. PAINE. No, he never took the keys. I offered to give him--give
Lee lessons on Sunday afternoons and we managed to do it a few Sunday
afternoons, I think three altogether and there were a couple of
weekends when we didn't get the lesson in, something intervened.
Representative FORD. This was in October of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. October and November. I think the last lesson was November
10, being the last Sunday.
Mr. DULLES. What progress did he make over that period?
Mrs. PAINE. Considerable.
Mr. DULLES. Reasonable progress?
Mrs. PAINE. Very reasonable progress. I thought he learned well, as
I have said, both backing and to make a right-angle turn, and really
began to understand the feeling of parking.
Representative FORD. Did he indicate to you when he might apply for a
driver's license?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Oh, yes. Thank you. It is a whole new section.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to go into that.
Mr. DULLES. There was some testimony on that point, I believe.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. Mr. Frazier testified that Oswald mentioned to him
that he was going to or had, I am not sure which, and I was wondering
whether he mentioned it to you?
Mr. DULLES. Got in line.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, on November 9, which was election day, Saturday, in
Texas.
Mr. JENNER. This was the weekend he was home?
Mrs. PAINE. This was the weekend that he was home, which was the last
weekend he was home, don't call it home though.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry. It was the last weekend that he was at your
home?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And he arrived the previous day, evening or late afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now starting with that Friday afternoon, please relate the
course of events?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I will say that we went Saturday morning to a station
in Dallas where you can take the written test and eye test that permits
you to get a learner's permit, but when we got there--that is all
of us, children, Lee, Marina and myself, driving in my car to Oak
Cliff--when we got there it was closed, being election day. I hadn't
thought, realized that this would mean it would be closed. So we
returned.