Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. This would be early in your acquaintance with him?
Mrs. PAINE. Very early. I learned Lee was not able to drive and didn't
have a license.
Mr. JENNER. How did you learn he was not able to drive?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was related to his looking for work the first
time in the middle of April, and I had learned he had looked in the
Dallas area for work.
Mr. JENNER. How did you learn it?
Mrs. PAINE. We were talking about it.
Mr. JENNER. You were talking with Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that he was not able to drive a car?
Mrs. PAINE. That he had never learned how.
Mr. JENNER. That he had difficulty in getting around?
Mrs. PAINE. Simply he had never learned how.
Mr. JENNER. He said this to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. And I felt immediately that his job opportunities, the
jobs to which he could have applied, and the jobs to which he could get
himself would be greatly broadened if he were able to drive and said so.
Mr. JENNER. You said that to him?
Mrs. PAINE. And said that to him. Then when we arrived in New Orleans
he said to me by way of almost pride that he had been allowed by his
uncle to drive his uncle's car.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Murret?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether there was more than one.
Mr. JENNER. But he volunteered the statement to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And it was something that had occurred after he had gotten
to New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. And he was in a sense pleased to report to me that he was
getting some experience driving. That his uncle had permitted him to
drive the car on the street.
Mr. JENNER. On the street?
Mrs. PAINE. On the street.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion while you were in New Orleans to
verify that in any respect whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or have it verified to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. This was confined to a remark that he made to you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Then when I learned in Marina's letter of
August 11 that Lee was out of work, I immediately thought it would
be well for him to make use of those free weekdays, not only for job
hunting but for learning the skill of driving and, therefore, that
paragraph--shall we read it?
Mr. JENNER. Haven't I already read it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. You mean from your letter?
Mrs. PAINE. Did you read that?
Mr. JENNER. The paragraph "Lee told me that he learned a little from
his uncle how to drive a car."
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you read that "It would be very useful for him to know
how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every
day."
Just to be certain of this, Mrs. Paine, this was a remark made to you
by Lee Harvey Oswald when you brought Marina from Irving, Tex., to New
Orleans, and----
Mrs. PAINE. The second week in May.
Mr. JENNER. The second week in May of 1963. And then, according to the
remark made to you by Lee Harvey Oswald that his uncle had permitted
him to drive his uncle's car on the street in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and he was proud of this.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ask at that time or any time while you were in New
Orleans in the spring to drive your car?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at all during--did you have the
feeling that he would like to drive the car?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he demonstrate to you that he could drive?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of it.
Mr. JENNER. You have given us all that occurred in New Orleans by
way of conversation or otherwise on the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald
driving an automobile or his ability to drive?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us the whole story on this subject. So
when next----
Senator COOPER. May I ask this one question?
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
Senator COOPER. Did Lee Oswald identify the uncle who permitted him to
drive his car?
Mrs. PAINE. Senator Cooper, he did not. He just said his uncle. He did
not identify his uncle by name.
Senator COOPER. Do you know of your own knowledge who the uncle was?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only assume it was the uncle he had been staying
with. He had been staying at his home.
Mr. JENNER. You had met the uncle at this time?
Mrs. PAINE. Just met him.
Mr. JENNER. So it was the uncle with whom he had been staying just
before he obtained the apartment at Magazine?
Mr. McCLOY. What is the uncle's name?
Mr. JENNER. Dutz Murret. This was the relative who had the nice home
that Marina first saw when she arrived there and thought maybe that is
where she was going to live, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. You want all other references to driving?
Mr. JENNER. Confining yourself to his ability to drive automobiles,
when next, and take it in chronological order as to when you next
recall it?
Mrs. PAINE. It came up next after he returned to the Dallas area in
October.
Mr. JENNER. When was that?
Mrs. PAINE. After he returned on the 4th, to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. The 4th of October?
Mrs. PAINE. That was the first I know.
Mr. JENNER. We will get into the reasons and the circumstances but you
stick with the automobile incidents.
Mrs. PAINE. He was looking for work.
Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. In the Dallas area and again, of course, I felt that he
could find more jobs, be eligible for more if he could drive.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do about it?
Mrs. PAINE. I recalled that I had a copy of the regulations for
driving, what you need to know to pass the written test.
Mr. JENNER. In what State?
Mrs. PAINE. In the State of Texas, and I gave him that booklet.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a discussion with him about your desire, your
recommendation, that he qualify to drive an automobile in Texas so it
would assist him in connection with his job hunting.
Mrs. PAINE. Probably. We certainly had conversation about it.
Mr. JENNER. Give us the subject of the conversation in terms of
recommendations by you, or what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I again recommended, as I had in the spring, that he learn
to drive.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mrs. PAINE. He was interested in learning to drive.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you?
Mrs. PAINE. I would like to offer to the Commission something we didn't
get to last night.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter I wrote to my mother, which she just
showed me recently, she just found it recently, which makes reference
to the date I first gave him a lesson in driving.
Mr. JENNER. That would be helpful to us. May I have the letter, please?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now only a portion of it is applicable.
Mr. JENNER. Why don't we give it a number?
Mrs. PAINE. Another portion is applicable in another connection, which
I would like especially to bring up.
Mr. JENNER. Having that in mind, we will give that document for
identification at the moment only, the number Commission Exhibit No.
425.
I won't identify it beyond that for the moment because the witness will
be using it to refresh her recollection.
Mrs. PAINE. I will read what applies here.
Mr. JENNER. You are now reading from Commission Exhibit No. 425.
Mrs. PAINE. Which is a letter dated October 14, in my hand, from me to
my mother.
Mr. DULLES. Would you give your mother's name?
Mrs. PAINE. Her name is Mrs. Carol Hyde.
Representative BOGGS. Where does she live?
Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio. It was likely written to Oberlin, where
she was a student at that time.
"If Lee can just find work that will help so much. Meantime I started
giving him driving lessons last Sunday (yesterday). If he can drive
this will open up more job possibilities and more locations."
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I want to comment too on the nature of this lesson.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission will be interested in that but you go ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. Now?
Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.
Mrs. PAINE. I knew that he had not even a learner's permit to drive. I
wasn't interested in his driving on the street with my car until he had
such. But on Sunday the parking lot of a neighboring shopping center
was empty, and I am quite certain that is where the driving lesson took
place.
Mr. JENNER. That is your best present recollection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now I recall this also, and it is significant. I
offered him a lesson and intended to drive him to this area for him to
practice. He, however, started the car.
Mr. JENNER. He got in and started the car?
Mrs. PAINE. He got in and started the car so that I know he was able to
do that and wanted to drive on the street to the parking lot.
Mr. JENNER. He wanted to?
Mrs. PAINE. He wanted to. I said, "My father is an insurance man and he
would never forgive me."
Mr. JENNER. Your father?
Mrs. PAINE. My father. And insisted that he get a learner's permit
before he would drive on the street.
Mr. JENNER. At that moment and at that time he acted, in any event in
your presence, as though he himself thought----
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. He would be capable of driving an automobile from your home
to the parking area in which you were about to give him a lesson. That
was your full impression, was it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I should add that, as I am recalling, he did drive a
portion of the way, he drove in fact, it is about three blocks, to the
parking lot. I was embarrassed to just tell him "No, don't." But I did,
in, effect, on the way there, when he was on the street, driving on the
street in my car, when we got there I said, "Now, I am going to drive
back." I didn't want him to.
Mr. JENNER. From your home to the parking lot?
Mrs. PAINE. The first time before we had any lesson at all. And at that
time I made it clear I didn't want him to drive in the street. Also,
it became clear to me in that lesson that he was very unskilled in
driving. We practiced a number of the things you need to know, to back
up, to turn, right angle turn to come to a stop.
Mr. JENNER. Was this on the parking lot?
Mrs. PAINE. This was all on a parking lot.
Mr. DULLES. Did I understand you to say he drove three blocks, was that
all the way to the parking lot? So he drove all the way to the parking
lot?
Mrs. PAINE. Perhaps a little longer. But a short distance, whatever it
was, to the parking lot, yes. Rather than stopping in midstreet and
changing drivers. Going to turn a right angle----
Mr. DULLES. How well did he do on that?
Mr. McCLOY. That is what she is telling.
Mrs. PAINE. No; that is a separate answer.
Mr. JENNER. She is talking about the parking lot.
Mrs. PAINE. I was very nervous while he was doing it and was not at
all happy about his doing it. I would say he did modestly well; but no
means skilled in coming to a stop and turning a square right angle at a
corner.
Mr. JENNER. Was there much traffic?
Mrs. PAINE. No. But then too, I noticed when we got to the parking lot
when he attempted to turn in a right angle he made the usual mistake of
a beginner of turning too much and then having to correct it. He was
not familiar with the delay of the steering wheel in relation to the
wheels, actual wheels of the power----