Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I take it that by this time, that is, up to
April 2 you had had several visits with Marina and you had reached the
point at which you invited them to your home for dinner?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. Now, Michael had never met either. By this time I had
talked to him. I had indeed invited them to stay indefinitely.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. And so I wanted him to meet them and invited them both to
come to dinner.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine, if I seem presumptuous.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But you have stated several times, and now you state you
inquired of your husband as to whether you could invite Marina to stay
with you. Didn't you think that was a little presumptuous on your part
to invite a man's wife to come to live with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, toward Lee it was presumptuous.
Mr. JENNER. Beg pardon?
Mrs. PAINE. Presumptuous in relation to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. In relation to Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed it is. Well, I will have to refer again to the
letter of April 7 where I said I didn't want to hurt Lee by such an
invitation, but that if they were unhappy, if their marital situation
was similar to mine, and this is not specifically in the letter, but if
he just did not want to live with her, that I would have offered this
as an alternative, really to both of them. I didn't want to get into a
position of competition with Lee for his wife. I thought about that,
and thought he might be very offended.
Mr. JENNER. It is possible he might very well be.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it is possible he even might have been violent, but I
didn't think anything about that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of him up to this moment on
this score?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. As a man of temper?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Violence?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None of that?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I had met him once.
Mr. JENNER. You invited the Oswalds to dinner on the evening of April 2?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What day of the week was that?
Mrs. PAINE. Tuesday.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, Michael picked them up.
Mr. JENNER. Who did?
Mrs. PAINE. Michael picked them up.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. At the Neely Street address. Has he talked about that? It
didn't come up?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know. I haven't the slightest notion. I was talking
with you.
Mrs. PAINE. Should I go ahead? I just want to get this first impression
into the record somewhere if he hasn't already.
Representative FORD. I think it would be helpful if you gave your
impression of his impression.
Mr. JENNER. Of his impression.
Mrs. PAINE. All right. This I have learned since the assassination, he
didn't give me this impression as at the time we didn't talk that much.
Mr. JENNER. Please, you are not giving us your impression of his
impression on this occasion, but rather your impression of what he said
to you after the assassination.
Mrs. PAINE. You still want it?
Representative FORD. I think it is important.
Mr. DULLES. Let us hear it.
Mrs. PAINE. He said--you must understand, that not living together
we talked together very little. I am sure he would have given me
his impression if we had been having dinner together the next day
afterwards, you see. He went over and Marina was not yet ready. He
thought that Lee was somewhat thoughtless. While doing absolutely
nothing to help her get ready, get the baby's things together, prepare
himself, he was quite impatient, thought she should be ready, and gave
orders while he himself sat down and talked to Michael, and Michael
carried the impression that Lee was somewhat thoughtless.
Mr. DULLES. What did you do? That was about a half hour--what did you
do during that period?
Mrs. PAINE. I was at the house preparing the dinner.
Mr. DULLES. You were at home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It has to be my impression of his impressions. I don't
recall the evening too well, the evening of the second. I do recall
we certainly had dinner together. I can't recall what the predominant
language was. Lee and Michael, of course, talked in English. Not
wanting to exclude her entirely from the conversation, I made
opportunity to talk with her in Russian after the meal was over. She
and I did the dishes and talked in Russian, and we were in the kitchen
while Michael was talking to Lee in English in the living room, so I do
not know what was said then between the two of them.
Mr. JENNER. How did your husband get along with Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, you probably have something on that.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression? I want your impression of how
your husband got along.
Mrs. PAINE. Okay. He was initially very interested in learning what
sort of man this was who had taken such a dramatic and unusual step
to go to the Soviet Union and attempt to renounce his citizenship.
He thought here is a person that must have thought things out for
himself, a very individualistic person, not a follower of the masses,
and he wanted to hear what the ideology was that led Lee to this step.
Michael has told me that he very soon felt that there wasn't much
ideology or thought, foundation. That Michael had thought he might be
able to learn from this man something and find at least good thinking
going on or inquiry, but he didn't find it. He rather found very rigid
adherence to a few principles such as the principle of the capitalist
exploiting the worker, and that this was a great moral failing of the
capitalistic society. Michael's own feeling was that Lee's view of
morality was very different from Michael's.
Mr. JENNER. In what respect, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Michael recalls having--now, this is later. This is not
that evening. Did you expect it was? This is answering your question of
Michael's impression of Lee.
Mr. JENNER. I wanted his initial impression.
Mrs. PAINE. All initial impressions. Well, I have passed that. I have
gone considerably past it, in fact.
Mr. JENNER. I see. How many times had you seen Marina up to this
moment, that is, up to April 2?
Mrs. PAINE. It was two or three times besides the initial party in
February.
Mr. JENNER. And your best recollection is that this was a nice,
pleasant evening, and that was about all?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did your husband take the Oswald's home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This is the second. When was the next occasion that you had
contact with either of the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. There is a notation of the eighth of April. I am looking on
my calendar, I have no other way of knowing, and one also on the tenth
which has an arrow going to the eleventh.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a little bit about that before you
go into it. Would you describe for the Commission now the condition,
the physical condition, of your calendar there?
Mrs. PAINE. Physical?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. There is a square, and in the square there is written
something.
Mrs. PAINE. "Marina" is written this time in Russian. I am improving,
it seems.
Mr. JENNER. In Russian. It is in the square dated April 10.
Mrs. PAINE. I am talking now about the square on April 8. There is a
notation "Marina".
Mr. JENNER. Is that all there is in that square?
Mrs. PAINE. That is all that is in that square.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Then the only thing that appears in the square for April 10
is the name "Marina" in Russian, and an arrow pointing, an arrow from
it pointing, to April 11.
Mr. JENNER. Now, go back, if you will, to April 8.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection or stimulate you as to
whether you had any contact with Marina on that day or whether it was
prearranged and what the occasion was?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly, it says that there had been an arrangement to
get together. Whether we did I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. I thought you had read everything that appeared in that
square. Is there more than just the word "Marina" in the square?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. That is my recollection. But that refreshes your
recollection in turning that, that was a prearranged meeting?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, all of these were, since there was no way over the
telephone.
Mr. JENNER. Is your recollection sufficiently refreshed to state
whether the meeting was a visit by you to her or she to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Does it have a relation to the letter that you say that you
prepared dated April 7, which is the day before?
Mrs. PAINE. I might have taken it that day, I don't know. Yes; it is
entirely possible. I hadn't thought about it.
Mr. JENNER. But anyhow my mentioning those two events together, does
that refresh your recollection or stimulate it more specifically on the
subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. It does not. You have no recollection beyond the fact that
on April 8 you have an entry with the word "Marina." Is that written in
Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The word "Marina" in Russian, it doesn't stimulate you in
any respect, does not stimulate your recollection?
Representative FORD. At the time of the dinner at your home on April
2, following that or during that time, do you recollect any discussion
about General Walker between your husband and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't recollect any such discussion.
Representative FORD. That night?
Mrs. PAINE. If there was any it would have had to have been in the
living room while I was talking to Marina in Russian in the kitchen. I
didn't hear any reference to it.
Representative FORD. You didn't hear any discussion that evening
between your husband and Lee Oswald about General Walker?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Did your husband ever tell you subsequently of any
such discussion?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall it. There was one reference, but that was
later.
Representative FORD. That was later. Do you recall when?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. It would be the Friday after U.N. Day, October the 4th.
Representative FORD. That was October 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. And this was April 2d?
Mrs. PAINE. 1963.
Representative FORD. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any discussion of General Walker at all
with Marina or in the presence of Marina or with Lee Oswald or in his
presence in your home or their home or even out in the parkway on the
subject of General Walker up to April 11, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Any discussion between yourself and your husband on that
day?
Mrs. PAINE. No; none that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Do you subscribe to a newspaper?
Mrs. PAINE. At that time I subscribed to the Irving local paper.
Mr. JENNER. Is that an evening or a morning paper?
Mrs. PAINE. At that time it was a morning paper.
Mr. JENNER. Morning paper. Do you have a recollection of being aware in
the edition of April 11 of an attack on General Walker the night before?
Mrs. PAINE. It is more likely that I heard it on television. I think I
must have heard it.
Mr. JENNER. You have a television and a radio?
Mrs. PAINE. We get news from the television.
Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of the attack on General Walker the
evening of April 10. Did you see Marina Oswald on the 11th?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess so judging from these marks on my calendar.
Mr. JENNER. We would like your very best recollection, please, Mrs.
Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall; I just don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. You just don't have any present recollection that you did
see her on the 11th or you didn't? You just have no--you are blank?
Mrs. PAINE. I can only guess from the calendar, that is all.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that entry you have no recollection whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. If you had seen her would it have been at her house, at her
apartment?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't even know that.
Mr. DULLES. Wouldn't you have remembered four trips back and forth?
Mrs. PAINE. I remember that I made such trips, but which day it is, it
is very difficult to know.
Mr. DULLES. I see. But you think--have you had a recollection about
seeing her at this time, without pinpointing it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and Marina on the
subject of the General Walker incident?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever?
Mrs. PAINE. I am trying to recall now when she first told me that Lee
was out of work. The next note I have of having seen them, and you must
understand this calendar by no means tells everything I have done or
would even be accurate about what I have done on account of what has
happened, but at some point she told me that he was out of work.
Mr. JENNER. Was it some point near the time we are now discussing?
Mrs. PAINE. Near the time we are now discussing. I am trying to get
some content in order to answer the question of what happened, did I
see her, what happened. The next date I have down for seeing her is a
picnic on the 20th of April.