Mr. PAINE. I saw he was angry, his hands trembled a little bit.
Senator COOPER. All right.
Mr. PAINE. But he was dogged, I think he was practiced or skilled or
took pride in this was a kind of struggle or fight that he would do
this, and he would do it for a long time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Clench his fists and put them together?
Mr. PAINE. No; it was expressing this as a mood.
Mr. LIEBELER. He would hold himself back?
Mr. PAINE. He would oppose himself to you steadily, and it seemed to me
he liked to put himself in a position of belligerence or opposition,
and he would just hold his ground or something, was accustomed to doing
that and expected to stick it out. It reminded me a little bit of
Lawrence of Arabia when Lawrence held the match that burned down to his
finger and the fellows asked him what is the trick? He said no trick
you just learn how to stand the pain.
Senator COOPER. I have to go and I would like to ask a few questions.
I ask these questions to get a certain background of his views which
you have said he finally came to some fixed position which he would
hold and would not move and there was no brooking of real argument on
that position.
You said earlier in response to a question by counsel that he did not
believe there was any possibility of any evolutionary progress in this
country, at least upon this issue of economic change.
Mr. PAINE. This he never said that specifically. But I would ask him
what policy should we take or I was trying to find if he didn't have
some avenue of following a policy in this country.
Senator COOPER. Did you direct questions to him which showed some
evolution in our own economic ideas and theories which he either
refused to accept----
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did. I mean I tried to show him how labor and
management, first labor had a right, I was criticizing labor for the
rigid position it is getting us into now----
Senator COOPER. He would not accept that idea of evolution?
Mr. PAINE. I think he did not accept it; yes.
He didn't have patience with it.
Senator COOPER. Is that also a tenet of the Communist dogma, do you
know?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe, I don't know whether you can say there is
a single Communist dogma of that sort. I suppose there are some groups
that feel that way and others don't.
Senator COOPER. Did he indicate any other way in which he thought that
economic change might come about in the United States?
Mr. PAINE. He did not indicate or reveal to me how he thought it would
come about and I on several occasions felt by his, perceived from his
attitude or felt impelled by his attitude to say that the values that
I held dear were diminished in a situation of violence, to which he
remained silent and I took it as disagreement. But I don't remember if
he had said that.
Senator COOPER. He remained silent when you spoke about that?
Mr. PAINE. When I said I was opposed to violence or said, why, when I
said that he remained silent and I took it----
Senator COOPER. You took it that he disagreed in any way by your
statement?
Mr. PAINE. Well, just by the way he would sort of withdraw.
Senator COOPER. He did not agree with your position?
Mr. PAINE. He did not agree; no.
Senator COOPER. That violence was unacceptable as a means of change?
Mr. PAINE. That is right, and I don't think he perceived also, was a
war of the kind of values that I am--tolerance, for instance seems to
me disappears when strained situations----
Senator COOPER. Did you discuss at least the kind of economic changes
that had occurred in Russia by means of violence?
Mr. PAINE. No; I was trying to find out whether he thought it was going
to come by revolution or not and he never did say, I never got an
answer as to how he thought this change was going to come. He did not
reveal constructive, or from my point of view, constructive effort to
make.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever discuss the revolution in Russia where by
means of violence the change had come about?
Mr. PAINE. He did not. That would have been the kind of argument I
would have accepted, a normal kind that you would have accepted it as
evidence here is the normal way to produce it, but he never said that.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever say any way in which he was expecting
Russia or any other country to indicate that he felt the use of
violence had produced good?
Mr. PAINE. No. As I say he did not--I would have accepted that argument
as a debating argument but he didn't bring it up.
Senator COOPER. That is all.
Mr. DULLES. Did he say or did you get the impression that he felt that
violence was the only way to improve things, let's say, in the United
States?
Mr. PAINE. I felt he was so disgusted with the whole system that he
didn't see a way that was worthwhile fussing around trying to modify
the situation.
Mr. DULLES. Other than violence or he didn't go that far?
Mr. PAINE. He didn't mention advocating violence or didn't say anything
in regard to violence but he did seem to me he didn't see dismissed as
trivial, no difference between the parties so why join one party or
another. They were all the same.
Churches--there is no avenue out that way. Education--there is nothing
there. So that he never revealed to me any constructive way that wasn't
violent.
Mr. DULLES. Did he think that communism was different from capitalism
in this respect?
(Short recess.)
The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.
Mr. DULLES. What I was getting at with my question was as to whether
he thought that probably violence was necessary with respect to both
systems to achieve the millennium that he sought or did he think it was
just necessary with regard to the American system.
Mr. PAINE. He didn't reveal to me to my satisfaction what criticism he
found of the Soviet Union. He had indicated he didn't like it. But I
wasn't aware that he was proposing to change that system also in some
way. Neither did he ever speak, he never spoke to me, in a way that I
could see a paradise, see his paradise. He spoke only, he was opposed
to exploitation of man by man. That was his motivating power.
(At this point Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you in any way that he had been
present at the right-wing rally that was held in Dallas the night
before Stevenson appeared in Dallas?
Mr. PAINE. He indicated that at the ACLU meeting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he had met anybody there?
Mr. PAINE. Not that I recall, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention speaking to anyone at that meeting?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether or not he was at the Stevenson
meeting itself?
Mr. PAINE. I guess I didn't ask him that. I remember asking myself
subsequently what was the answer to that question and I couldn't answer
it then and I can't answer it now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of his mentioning it at all?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember what--I think I assumed that he had
but----
Mr. LIEBELER. You assumed that he had been at the Stevenson affair?
Mr. PAINE. I think I assumed that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any basis for that assumption?
Mr. PAINE. There had been some discussion in the ACLU, some other
people had gotten up and had spoken of that awful last night, I guess,
this was the previous night, that awful time and I think he seemed to
nod his assent. That was my----
Mr. LIEBELER. You inferred from that that he had possibly been present
at the Stevenson meeting?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was no other basis for your assumption in that
regard?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. On the weekend of November 8, 9, and 10, do you recall
when you came to your house in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I would come out regularly on Friday after cashing my
check at the bank.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember coming on Friday evening on the 8th of
November?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember any break in that habit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not Oswald was present at your
home on the Friday evening November 8, 1963?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't specifically remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember one way or the other?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at the house on Saturday? November 9th?
Mr. PAINE. I was at the house probably on Saturday and certainly on
Sunday. I think that weekend I remember stepping over him as he sat
in front of the TV, stepping past, one of these things laying on
the floor and thinking to myself for a person who has a business to
do he certainly can waste the time. By business I mean some kind of
activity and keeping track of right-wing causes and left-wing causes or
something. I supposed that he spent his time as I would be inclined to
spend more of my time if I had it, trying to sense the pulse of various
groups in the Dallas area.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Oswald did on Saturday morning, November
9, 1963?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was taken by your wife to apply for
a driver's license and take a driver's license test on that morning?
Mr. PAINE. She told me sometime subsequently that she had taken him
for--wait. I remember the incident that he had arrived on a Saturday
morning at the drivers' license bureau, stood in line for a long time
but they cut off the line at 12 o'clock and he did not stay there long
enough for him to get his driver's license student permit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this at this time or would that have been another
time. Let me help you.
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it help to refresh your recollection if I suggested
that November 9th was a local election day in Dallas, I believe?
Mr. PAINE. I think that is an election that I have forgotten.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no knowledge of Oswald's activities on that day,
no direct personal knowledge?