Mr. PAINE. I was aware that my father didn't talk readily about his
affairs. When we met we would talk at great length and we always do
talk. There is an amazing similarity in our natures. I have almost
thought there was one person trying to live in two bodies.
But we have always been completely absorbed in subjects that were
closer to my--without going into what he was doing day to day or what
he was--I was aware that I didn't know, and I didn't pry or probe as to
what he might be doing there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you know, however, he was actively
participating in the meetings and activities of this group?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that your father and mother
were divorced when you were about 4 years old?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were at that time living in New York City?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Subsequently you and your mother.
Mr. PAINE. She got a divorce in Reno, Nev., she had a house in Virginia
City.
The CHAIRMAN. In New York you were living with your father or mother?
Mr. PAINE. They lived together in New York. Then there was a year, a
part of a year, we moved to Philadelphia. They may have separated and
he tried to come back or something like that, and then we went to Reno,
Nev.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the time you lived in Philadelphia, was your
father living with the family?
Mr. PAINE. I think he was there part time. I don't remember that for
sure. We had two houses there. One I think I remember him slightly and
the other one I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your father was not present during the time that you
stayed in Nevada?
Mr. PAINE. No; he was not.
Mr. LIEBELER. You and your brother stayed in Nevada with your mother?
Mr. PAINE. And a housekeeper also.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Nevada where did you live?
Mr. PAINE. We went over to California. Santa Barbara.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who lived there at that time with you?
Mr. PAINE. A friend of hers, Kathleen, now she was originally Kathleen
Schroeder, a sister of my uncle, now Kathleen Forbes, and a distant
cousin of my mother's, and I think my grandfather, grandparents, would
come out occasionally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your father present at that time?
Mr. PAINE. No; he was not.
Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't there at any time during your stay in Santa
Barbara?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember that. I am not certain of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you live in Santa Barbara, Calif.?
Mr. PAINE. Each year my grandfather paid our way back across the
country to Naushon Island in Massachusetts. We lived there 3 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go after that?
Mr. PAINE. Cambridge, Mass.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you there?
Mr. PAINE. From the third to the sixth grade.
Mr. LIEBELER. With whom did you live?
Mr. PAINE. With my mother on Fairweather Street.
The CHAIRMAN. Is this of particular importance to the investigation, it
is very lengthy, and I don't know particularly what it bears upon. If
it is in relation with his father, let's get at that and get it over
with, but I don't see what this man's history from the time he was
born--I don't see how it bears on it. It just takes altogether too much
time for an extraneous purpose, it seems to me. Let's get on with the
thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. It bears on the point only on what connection he has with
his father.
Mr. PAINE. Let me go to that. I have seen him on a few times, once a
year would be a frequent--we felt great affinity in our bent, not in
the actual application of the way we would like to do things but in a
concern for the value of people. I know very little about what he does,
and he has not tried to proselytize me, and he has not volunteered
information about what he did.
I think a certain change has come over him since. For many years or
years in college or something I thought he was still interested in his
revolutionary groups and that was a pity because that wasn't going to
happen, and it was to be a dead end, a blind, he would come to the end
of his life and his cause had fizzled out.
When I went out to California more recently, the last time we were
talking about the civil rights movement and, shall we say, the
revolution occurring in this country spearheaded by the Negroes'
demand for dignity, that was a subject that completely absorbed the
weekend and there were various Negroes who came around the country, who
happened to pass through at that time.
You probably might be interested in regard to Cuba. I was surprised
sometime in the conversation someone there had spoken favorably of the
revolution in Cuba. This was a surprise to me, I didn't realize that
this was part of the--was the present thrill, shall we say. I don't
know whether that applied to Lyman also or whether--I think he went
along with that. We didn't get around to arguing on that point. I only
mention that in passing. That was about the full extent of it.
She mentioned Cuba in this favorable way, and it was a subject I
didn't----
Mr. DULLES. Who was this she?
Mr. PAINE. It was Grace somebody, I have forgotten.
Mr. DULLES. One of the people present in these conversations?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. So that was my only knowledge that he was, or the
people around him were, interested in Cuba, and that is the only thing
I can see has any bearing in your interest here.
Mr. LIEBELER. To what extent would you say that your father has
influenced your own political views and attitudes?
Mr. PAINE. I would have guessed it was almost negligible. I was aware
that sometime in the beginning of college or something I used the
language of the masses or I used jargon which I recognized, came to
perceive was of quite leftist nature, and I think that at the time I
used to get The Nation, that was in high school. I probably picked it
up more from the magazines and things of that sort than from him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. On a phone call shortly after the assassination he called
and thought it was outrageous to be pinning Lee Oswald who was a
scapegoat, an ideal person to hang the blame on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your father called you?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; he called me, yes. He didn't suppose it was true, I
told him I thought it probably was true. And I told him to keep his
shirt on.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about that conversation?
Mr. PAINE. No. It was chiefly both he and Freddy, his wife, had to be
calmed down. They thought it was a steamrollered job of injustice or
something. And I didn't think their admonitions were--I think not to
say anything, not to join the hubbub or jump on the things I said or I
took it to be things I said would be distorted and blown up and added
to the hullabaloo to lynch Lee.
Representative FORD. Did they infer or imply that the allegations or
accusations against Oswald bore the semblance of a lynching? And I use
lynching in the broad sense.
Mr. PAINE. They did not use lynching at all. I added that. They thought
he was----
Representative FORD. Being railroaded?
Mr. PAINE. No; he said that no one, no member of the Friends of Cuba
would want to assassinate the President. That was a crazy idea.
Representative FORD. You said that was a crazy idea?
Mr. PAINE. No; he said that. Therefore, he concluded, and this was the
same, similar to my feeling, that I first didn't think Oswald had done
it because I didn't see how it fitted in, how it helped his favorite
ideals.
And Lyman then said the same thing. Therefore, including himself,
Lyman, that Lee couldn't have done it, and that this must be--Lee was
the ideal person to hang it on.
Representative FORD. How soon was this phone call after the
assassination?
Mr. PAINE. I think it was--he did not know, I think, that we had Marina
staying with us, but he was one of the first to connect, guess that it
was us. He called and asked us, "Is this you?"
Representative FORD. "Is this you?" What? I don't quite understand the
context here.
Mr. PAINE. He heard it on the news and he heard Mrs. Paine, and Marina
had been staying with a Mrs. Paine and he called to ask, "Are you the
Paines?"
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you discussed Lee Oswald with your father prior to
this time?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think I mentioned him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your father knew Lee Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. No; I do not know. Or I gather since he had such a funny
idea of him over the phone.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your judgment the only way your father
heard of Lee Oswald, connected Lee Oswald to you, was through a news
broadcast that he had heard connecting Oswald with somebody named Paine?
Mr. PAINE. Or Marina had stayed with the Paines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss your father with Lee Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald never asked you about your father in any way
or did he indicate that he knew of your father?
Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I think Ruth came closer to revealing that
my father had--you will have to ask her about that question. I did not
mention my father to Lee.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet Lee Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. I met him sometime in the spring of 1963.
Mr. DULLES. This is Oswald?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Lee Oswald.
Mr. PAINE. We were invited to a party, Ruth and I were invited to a
party, given by Everett Glover. I had a cold and wasn't able to go.
Ruth went at that time and subsequently went once or twice to see
Marina. And she invited Marina and Lee to our house for dinner, and
here the date that comes to mind is April 10.
Mr. DULLES. Where was Marina staying at this time?
Mr. PAINE. Berry Street.
Mr. DULLES. Berry Street in Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Berry Street or would it be Neely Street?
Mr. PAINE. Neely Street. So this was the first time I saw them. I had
to go over, he didn't drive a car and I had to go over, and pick him
up in my car and bring him back to the house. So I went over to Neely
Street and saw them. Marina took about half an hour to pack all the
things for Junie. Meanwhile I was talking to Lee at their house there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that conversation?
Mr. PAINE. I asked him what he was doing, his job, and he showed me a
picture on the wall, which was a piece of newspaper, I think--that is
beside the point. I asked him about Russia, what he liked about----
Mr. DULLES. Could we get that picture?
Mr. PAINE. I think it was beside the point. It was a piece of newspaper
showing a fashion ad, I think. I think his job was----
Mr. DULLES. Nothing to do with politics at all, to do with his job. I
see.
Mr. PAINE. I asked him what he thought. I wanted to know why he had
gone to Russia and why he had then come back. He had told me he had
become a Marxist in this country without ever having met a Communist,
by reading books and then he got to Russia, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he went to Russia?
Mr. PAINE. He said he wanted to go to Russia. He had chosen to go to
Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't elaborate on it?
Mr. PAINE. No; I gathered he had had an interest in going to Russia
for a number of years prior to the time he got there and decided that
that was the paradise of the world and through fortunate relations
between this country and Russia at the time, I would have to remember
history to know whether that was a warm, a friendly time or not, but he
indicated both his going and his coming were fortunate times in history
or something that made it possible for him to do these.
Mr. DULLES. Fortunate times?
Mr. PAINE. Fortunate times, this was sort of an accident in history.
This is what I gathered from his conversation.
Representative FORD. Fortunate that he could leave at the time and
fortunate that he could come back.
Mr. PAINE. Fortunate that he could be accepted to emigrate to Russia.
He told me that he had--so he went to Russia and he tried to surrender
his passport to the Russians but the State Department would not give
it to him, or the consul in Moscow, which was--which proved to be
fortunate because then a few years later when he wanted to return it
would not have been possible, except if they still had his passport. He
had not legally surrendered it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that was a fortunate circumstance?
Mr. PAINE. I think he smiled, he indicated to me he genuinely had
wanted to become a Russian citizen and to surrender it. He wanted to
renounce his American citizenship. He tried to, and the Russians, he
told me, had accepted his bona fide intentions and tried to get the
passport away from the Americans.
Representative FORD. Was the failure to get his passport a determining
factor in their not accepting his desires?
Mr. PAINE. No. He told me that they did accept his desires despite his
inability to get the passport and give it to them.
Representative FORD. Despite his inability?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. "They" being the Russians?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; they being the Russians and they issued to him, he told
me, the standard kind of temporary citizenship paper which is given to
all emigres to Russia, and there are some----
Mr. DULLES. Was it citizenship paper he said or something else,
citizenship paper?
Mr. PAINE. Now, I suppose there was a regular paper and everybody would
know of it.
Mr. DULLES. Domicile paper or something allowing domicile.
Mr. PAINE. I had thought, my impression was, that it was kind of
probationary citizenship. It is a kind of paper issued for a year to
somebody who is seeking citizenship. That was my impression at the time.
Mr. DULLES. Could it have been a probationary residence permit or
something of that sort. He said citizenship, did he?
Mr. PAINE. That was my impression. That it was the commencement of a
citizenship paper.
Mr. DULLES. Did he tell you about any difficulties he had in getting
permission to stay on in Russia?
Mr. PAINE. Well, this was a question. I asked him how was it they so
readily accepted--you know other Americans have a hard time staying
more than 30 days there, "How was it that you were so readily accepted
into the bosom of Soviet Society?" And to that he answered, "well, it
was just a fortunate mood between the countries or something to that
effect," is something that I gathered.
I didn't remember the history and I thought it would be--he smiled a
little bit. I can't remember whether he smiled a little bit when I
then asked him how did he manage to get out, at one time, but at one
time I do remember he smiled as though there were a story there, and I
didn't--I supposed the story would be too intricate, not interesting
enough to try to get him to relate it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not ask him to relate the story?
Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn the circumstances under which he left
Russia, from him?
Mr. PAINE. As he told me at that same half hour before we came back to
our house on Fifth Street,----
Mr. DULLES. Was this the first time you had seen him?
Mr. PAINE. All this happened in the first half hour.
Mr. DULLES. The first time you had ever seen him?
Mr. PAINE. The first time I had seen him or at least that first night.
He told me he had decided, that he had wanted, to come back to this
country and it was through the fortunate circumstance of the Embassy
still having his passport which was a legal loophole that made it
legally possible, and I asked him--at sometime I thought this was
rather nice that the State Department, I think this was a little later
in the same evening, the State Department had forewarned him, had
granted him money also, to come back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?
Mr. PAINE. He told me that and I was rather proud of the State
Department for its generous behavior toward such a wayward citizen.
He actually had spoken--I had mentioned this because he had spoken
abusively of the American Government.
Mr. LIEBELER. At this time, during the first meeting?
Mr. PAINE. Not just the American Government--yes; at this same meeting.
He had spoken with abuse of, sort of resentment that they didn't let
him have his passport and I thought, well now, that was just kind of a
nice trick, by having a consular official there that he knew, this man
wanted to change his mind, this little legal dodge of not wanting to
give him his passport which I think is illegal if the man wants it, it
would be the thing to permit him to come back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you point that out to Lee Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. PAINE. I don't think he responded to it.
Mr. DULLES. He talked about surrendering the passport rather than
surrendering citizenship, did he?
Mr. PAINE. The two were synonymous, I thought, that if you surrendered
your passport and with the intention of adopting another one that was
renouncing American citizenship.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr. PAINE. Which he wanted, he told me he wanted to renounce his
American citizenship. He said that quite flatly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this conversation
concerning his trip back and his attitude toward the State Department
and the United States that he discussed during this first meeting?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think I have got it a little confused
with Marguerite Oswald what she said at the assassination, at the time
of the night of the 22d. She was resentful of the State Department,
thinking it had been remiss in taking so long in getting him back. I
don't remember whether he had voiced the same--I am confused, I don't
know whether it was he or she who had voiced this resentment. I thought
to the contrary it was very generous.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald himself voiced
resentment against the Government of the United States in this
connection?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I do remember that. That was the thing that prompted me
to say that it was actually rather nice of them to have been illegal
just for this----
Mr. DULLES. I didn't catch the last. Nice of them to have been what?
Mr. PAINE. I thought it probably was illegal of the embassy official
not to hand over his passport when he demanded it in order to surrender
it to the Soviet Union.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember Oswald responding to that when you
made that answer to him?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember his response.
The CHAIRMAN. You also said you thought it was rather nice of the State
Department to do that in order to make it possible for him to return if
he wanted to?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I said both of these things. They had given him money.
They had held, a peccadillo to hold, the passport out of the knowledge
that he might, such people might, want to return, change their mind,
and then to provide him money moreover to come back, this all seemed
to me rather nice even though it had taken 2 more months than when he
originally wanted to come back.
I had said, this in response to his, some kind of expression on his
part of criticism of the State Department or the foreign embassy or
whatever it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember why he was critical? Was he critical
because they had not given him his passport when he went to Russia
or was he critical because in his opinion they had taken so long to
arrange his return?
Mr. PAINE. I think he was critical when he first mentioned it, he
seemed to have the critical attitude--some of this critical attitude
may have been facial expressions or way of speaking, which was somewhat
common with him. Therefore, I can't remember for sure whether it was in
the words or in his attitude. He was critical, though, certainly of
the first, of the State Department not relinquishing his passport.
Mr. DULLES. Was he critical at this latter time?
Mr. PAINE. He was critical of that as he was relating to his desire
to go to the Soviet Union. He was relating the story to me, and then
he had spoken of the State Department as though they were a bunch of
bastards, wouldn't--or illegal or something. Anyway, he was unfavorable.
Mr. DULLES. But did you indicate he was rather glad that they had later
taken this position so that he could get his passport back or did I
misunderstand you on that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I pointed out to him that or said "it was kind of
fortunate that they had held your passport," and I think he nodded his
assent to that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to return to the United
States from Russia?
Mr. PAINE. Most of this conversation, I think, was when we had first
met and I wasn't sure whether he was speaking derogatively of the
Soviet Union in order to win my good graces or thinking he could win my
friendship that way.
However, he spoke more with disfavor of the Soviet Union during this
first meeting than was quite comprehensible to someone who had gone
there.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. PAINE. But chiefly what he said was that he didn't have choice of
where he could live, you were assigned, he spoke with a certain amount
of derision, scorn of the fact that you were assigned jobs, and he
thought the food was boring, I think, to use his word. He had mentioned
that he liked to--he had gone hunting with some friends, that was the
only thing he mentioned about the Soviet Union in which I sensed that
he had been with people except for also mentioning that he had been the
center of interest as an American who couldn't drive a car.
But apparently he had relished going hunting. He had also said with
resentment, a Soviet citizen could not own a rifle. They could own
shotguns but not a rifle, and that you could shoot a rifle only by
joining a rifle club which he said was a paramilitary organization.
Again, this was with a degree of scorn in his voice or his attitude. I
had assumed that he at least tried the paramilitary organization, the
rifle club, so he could speak with such scorn, with knowledge of what
he was speaking about.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had joined an organization in
which he was permitted to shoot a rifle?
Mr. PAINE. No; he did not. I don't know that for a fact. I had assumed
from his conversation that he had tried it but I gather that he did not
like this organization.
Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything about having to leave the rifle at the
club, that you couldn't take the rifle away from the club, or anything
of that kind?
Mr. PAINE. I assume that was true. He didn't mention it, he mentioned
that a Soviet citizen could not possess a rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak of any training that he might have received
in connection with either a rifle or a shotgun while he was in the
Soviet Union?
Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you the degree of facility with which
he used either of these weapons while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. He--is there anything else he told you about this hunting
club or this rifle or shotgun that you can remember now?
Mr. PAINE. No; I am not particularly interested in rifles and hunting
so that I didn't--it was an ideal opportunity--I think he did love
hunting so I think it would have been an ideal way to reach him in a
somewhat human way.
Mr. DULLES. You got no idea of how much time he was at the rifle club
or what? Did it seem to be a frequent occupation?
Mr. PAINE. No; I can't say I had any fruitful idea of whether he was
a member of it. I assumed he was a member of it. He didn't say he
was a member of it. I assumed he spoke with authority saying it was
a paramilitary organization and somehow conveying the idea that he
didn't like that aspect of it and, therefore, I assumed he didn't like
it. He spoke only with pleasure of his hunting trip. He mentioned a
hunting trip, I don't think he mentioned them in plural, which he had
taken with some friends.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more details about that hunting trip?
Mr. PAINE. We talked, this was within the first half hour, the talk was
very brief.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention to you this hunting trip or anything
relating to a rifle or shotgun in the Soviet Union at any later time?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't know what time he was referring to.
Mr. LIEBELER. I mean at any other time after the first meeting with you
did he refer again to his activities in the Soviet Union?
Mr. PAINE. I see.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this rifle?
Mr. PAINE. No; that subject never came up again.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at this first meeting about his work in
the Soviet Union?
Mr. PAINE. I had gathered he worked somewhere in a television factory.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I can't remember whether it was television, it was
electronics of some sort.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the nature of his work?
Mr. PAINE. He did not tell me. I thought to myself that if he was in a
very honorable position there he would have mentioned it. So, I thought
he was probably just a mechanic of some sort, wiring it together.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid?
Mr. PAINE. I can't remember, I think he did but I don't remember what
he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he received any income other than
from his work?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe he told me anything about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have been referring primarily here in our questioning
to the first meeting that you had with him, but do you remember any
subsequent conversation with Oswald about his work, his pay, and his
income in the Soviet Union after this first meeting?
Mr. PAINE. I think he thought it was too low. He thought the standard
of living, he recognized the standard of living was low, and they were
restricted therefore in their--just too confined, told where to live.
The food was boring and there was nothing to do. I didn't get the idea
it was lack of money. He did not say anything about lack of money.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder if we could get for our guidance the approximate
number of times he saw Lee Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. It was about four times that we had lengthy conversations.
Mr. DULLES. Four times, that is four times prior to the date of the
assassination.
Mr. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. DULLES. Or that includes all the times?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't see him again after the assassination.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him after the assassination. Four times
prior to the assassination including this one time you have already
described?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. This is the first meeting before he went to New Orleans
and then about three weekends after he came back----
Mr. DULLES. I think that will be taken up. I just wanted to get in my
mind approximately how many times in all you saw him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald at any time indicate to you that he was
treated by the Russian authorities in any way different from ordinary
Russian citizens who occupied a similar status in the Soviet Union?
Mr. PAINE. No; I wasn't aware of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any special training that he had?
Mr. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention his living accommodations?
Mr. PAINE. Well, with some kind of resentment he did, that it was
assigned, and I think that is about all he said.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask whether these questions relate to all the four
times or just to the first time, are we still on the first?
Mr. LIEBELER. Basically on the first time, sir, unless we specify to
the contrary.
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what else you and Oswald discussed during this
first meeting that you had?
Mr. PAINE. Unfortunately that first meeting was the clearest one. I
was asking him questions, taking his answers. I had hoped when I met
this man to have insights into Russia, both meeting him and meeting his
wife, and interesting talks about the differences between the Russian
system and the American, the western system.
Then I found that he was--some questions, later in the evening, the
conversation was translated into Russian also so that Marina could
follow along.
Mr. DULLES. You mean after the first half hour when you were
preparing----
Mr. PAINE. That is right, when we came back after dinner to our house.
Mr. DULLES. Your house. So this went on?
Mr. PAINE. What you have heard now occurred mostly in the first half
hour when I was speaking directly to him when I met him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you returned to Irving to your house and had dinner
and had the additional conversation?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. Now, in all the subsequent conversations, you are going
to get less information in what he said.
Mr. DULLES. In the first part of this meeting you were alone and in the
second part of the meeting there were other people there?
Mr. PAINE. My wife and Marina was able to join us. At this time Marina
was packing things for Junie and I noticed that he was speaking very
harshly to her. He was telling her what bag or satchel to take. I
gathered from it, of course, it was in Russian, and I thought to
myself, here is a little fellow who certainly insists on wearing the
pants.
Mr. DULLES. You don't understand Russian yourself?
Mr. PAINE. No. So he spoke loudly to her, and didn't rise from his
seat. But spoke surprisingly harshly especially in front of a guest.
Mr. DULLES. How did she take this?
Mr. PAINE. With a bit of umbrage. She didn't like it. It rankled her.
Representative FORD. In other words, this half hour conversation took
place in their apartment?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Representative FORD. While she was packing the bags to go to your home?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.