Representative FORD. In the conversation that Oswald had with this
Japanese lady at your party, did you overhear any of that conversation?
Mrs. FORD. No; I did not. I did not have time, I was the hostess and I
just didn't get to talk to anyone.
Representative FORD. Did you ever ask the Japanese lady what the gist
of the conversation was or what the content of the conversation was?
Mrs. FORD. No; I never have. In fact, I have not seen her after that.
That was the first time she came to my house. I mean I have seen her
later on in the beauty shop but I have never talked to her about it.
Representative FORD. Did she speak English?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she speaks English well.
Representative FORD. All right.
Mr. LIEBELER. At this get-together that you mentioned at your house on,
I think it was the 29th, after the party, the informal get-together,
the Rays were there, and the Sullivans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris.
Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested to you that some of
the people that were there at that party said the possibility of Oswald
being a Russian agent was discussed in detail at that party in that
group?
Mrs. FORD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember any of the discussion?
Mrs. FORD. I don't remember any of the discussion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything other than what you told us that led
you to believe that Oswald was unstable or a mental case?
Mrs. FORD. Nothing, except that I was thinking about him myself beating
his wife. That would have been one reason. I don't think that any
stable man would do that, especially she appeared to me very sick sort
of a woman, not sick, but frail and fragile, I think any man who
strikes a woman who is incapable of striking back, I would think would
be unstable.
Mr. LIEBELER. This Russian group that we have been discussing, Mr.
Bouhe and these other people, do they see each other regularly? Is
there sort of a Russian community in Dallas, would you say?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; there are about, I think, maybe four families in Fort
Worth and maybe half a dozen in Dallas or more than that, but that
mainly we see each other, and there is one Eastern Orthodox Church in
Russia where that is where we actually meet each other.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas, you mean, or Fort Worth?
Mrs. FORD. Dallas. I am sorry. In Dallas, and we still observe our
Eastern Orthodox religion during the holidays and sometimes like
Christmas falls 13 days after the American Christmas so there is New
Year's sometimes we celebrate those.
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know the De Mohrenschildts?
Mrs. FORD. Well, I know George De Mohrenschildt the same,
approximately, I will say I was acquainted with him for approximately
14 years but I don't know him well.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that De Mohrenschildt was the only
member of the Russian community that kept on seeing the Oswalds and
trying to help them.
Was there any discussion about that among your friends?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; George De Mohrenschildt is rather an odd ball, among
Russians anyway, so it was nothing unusual about him doing that. He was
always doing something unusual. He would even go to church with shorts
on, you know, this is something, he would do something that nobody else
would do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Shorts?
Mrs. FORD. Shorts.
Mr. LIEBELER. Short trousers?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific conversations about the
reasons as to why De Mohrenschildt continued to associate with the
Oswalds after the rest of you had given them up.
Mrs. FORD. Well, I remember his wife was telling me like she felt it
was their duty now since everybody else dropped them and they needed
help.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation with the Oswalds among
any of your friends as to whether or not Oswald went hunting in Russia
and had access to weapons?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think that George Bouhe was telling me that. He was
telling him that he was going hunting and he told him about killing
ducks or something of that type.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember that in any greater detail?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember it. I only remember that because of the
way he was saying, "ducks" in Russian, George was saying that he was
using sort of a word when you call for it, it is a small duck rather
than for ducks, he was saying that his Russian wasn't perfect.
I mean in that conversation he was using, an example of he was saying,
when he would go hunting for ducks, instead of "utki" for ducks he
would say "utitschki" that would mean small ducks, and he was saying
that his Russian was imperfect.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is Oswald's Russian?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's ability to speak English at that
time, did she speak English at that time?
Mrs. FORD. I don't think she did. She could speak a few words but I
don't think she did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of you attempt to teach her English?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; George Bouhe was attempting to teach her to write and
was giving her lessons.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us something about that?
Mrs. FORD. Well, he was telling me that he had gotten her a dictionary
and he had--or some other book anyway and he was telling me that every
time he saw her, made an attempt to see her I don't know how he did
that but anyway he was giving her a lesson and she was supposed to have
completed it by the next time in writing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about Marina's ability to
speak English or write English? Did Marina learn as a result of that?
Mrs. FORD. He said she was doing very well. I don't know if she learned
to speak but he said she was a good student.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee Oswald ever object to this effort on Mr. Bouhe's
part?
Mrs. FORD. Well, he was objecting to anyone of the Russians helping her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Helping her learn English?
Mrs. FORD. Not learning English, but I mean helping her about anything.
I don't know whether he was objecting to that. But we talked with Lee
about this, why he wasn't teaching her English and he wasn't speaking
to her and he said that he didn't want to forget Russian and he really
said, "If she wants," this is what Marina said the other day, that he
didn't actually object, but he thought if she could learn Russian just
by herself in any way she could, she could, but he is not going to help
her. He just didn't want to help her by speaking English.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean English.
Mrs. FORD. That is right. He is not going to talk English with her, he
wanted Russian. He wanted for the little girl to learn Russian and for
himself not to forget it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate, in other words that he wanted Marina to
speak Russian so that he could maintain his own ability in Russian?
Mrs. FORD. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he also wanted his children to learn to speak Russian?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. After this party on the 28th of December, what was your
next contact with either Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mrs. FORD. After the 28th? I think after the assassination, I only
heard once about her, I just heard she went to New Orleans. Again a
friend, Lydia Dymitruk, was in the bakery and she said she saw Marina
coming in and she told her she thought Marina was pregnant and she told
her Marina was going to New Orleans. That is the only time I have heard
anything about them after that party. The next contact I had with her
was, I don't know the date but it was soon after the assassination when
I just felt sorry for Marina, I thought she was, I always felt she was
innocent, I thought she was a naive girl in a lot of ways and that is
why she got into a lot of problems and troubles.
I just felt if she didn't have anybody there except the FBI and nobody
to speak in Russian, she didn't know how everybody felt, I would
think she would feel very badly, so I called Mrs. Paine who, I found
out after the assassination she was a friend of Marina's and I told
her that if she would have a contact with Marina, tell her that we
sympathize with her that she is in the position that she is, and to
call me or to let me--that I would like to talk with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when it was that you talked
to Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. FORD. I think that was either the first part of December, I think
it must have been at least a week after the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. In early December?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after that?
Mrs. FORD. Right after that, I think the next day Marina called me, and
she said the reason she called me was because Mrs. Paine told her that
I called, and let her know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that Marina told you that
she, Marina, had talked to Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. FORD. Well, this, I don't know. I think that is what she did. In
fact, I think that Mrs. Paine told me she talked on the telephone with
Marina but I couldn't be positive about it. I know she wrote letters,
they wrote, I know Mrs. Paine wrote to Marina, and I couldn't exactly
say she talked to her on the telephone or how it was, either Marina
called Mrs. Paine or I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you know Marina wrote Mrs. Paine a letter? Did
Marina tell you that she wrote Mrs. Paine during that period?
Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I know later Mrs. Paine kept calling me
and asked if I heard from Marina, because she kept writing to Marina
and Marina didn't answer, so she wanted to know if I talked to her,
that she was the reason she was calling me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Paine indicate to you after she called you
trying to find out from Marina, did she indicate to you she had or had
not heard from Marina since the assassination?
Mrs. FORD. I believe she told me she talked on the telephone with her
right soon after, after I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. During this first telephone conversation with Marina, was
there anything said about the events of the assassination in any way?
Mrs. FORD. No; not at all, except that Marina was very surprised the
way people treated her. She was telling me that if it had happened in
Russia, she just would--she just knew she wouldn't be talking to me or
anybody else. She knew they would be sent to Siberia or shot right away
is what she said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Marina said?
Mrs. FORD. That is what she said. I told her that was the big
difference in Russian Government and the American Government. And
then she asked me for advice. Someone contacted her at the time from
a western paper and offered her $10,000 or something for the story
and she asked me if it was the right thing to do because she felt she
didn't want to make money on such a thing, a horrible thing as that,
and I advised her to take the money because I thought she would need it
for the children.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after that first--was there anything else you
discussed in that telephone conversation?
Mrs. FORD. No; I think we talked mostly about that book deal, about the
offer she had.
Mr. LIEBELER. After that first telephone conversation, what was the
next contact you had with Marina?
Mrs. FORD. That was quite a long time after that when it was again Mrs.
Paine contacted me, and wanted to know if I could go and translate for
them for, we were saying about that yesterday, what is that union.
Mr. LIEBELER. I did talk to you yesterday afternoon.
Mrs. FORD. I have forgotten, I couldn't say because it is important.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. FORD. That is right, it was the American Civil Liberties Union and
I talked to my husband about that and he tried to find out; I told him
to find out all he can if it had anything to do with a Communist front
or something and if it was I didn't want to do anything about it, to be
connected with it, and he couldn't find anything out, but at the same
time I told him that I did not want to go with them but I didn't mind
translating. So I did translate and they wanted to know if Marina was
held incommunicado, and she answered. Mrs. Paine brought me that letter
to translate from English to Russian, and the man in charge, I don't
know his name, I have forgotten his name, you mentioned it yesterday,
if you say it I will remember it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's come to that in a moment, let's develop the story
first.
How did the question of the American Civil Liberties first come up, did
Mrs. Paine bring it up?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, because she tried to write letters to
Marina and she wouldn't answer and she thought she was held in sort of
a protective custody and couldn't see anybody. That is what she felt,
and she was rather imprisoned is what she thought.
Mr. LIEBELER. So Mrs. Paine came to you with a letter that was written
in English, is that correct?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And she asked you to translate into Russian?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a letter from Mrs. Paine to Marina or a letter
from the Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. FORD. No; from Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. LIEBELER. And so you translated that into Russian?
Mrs. FORD. That is right, I translated it into Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Up to that point was Mrs. Paine the only person who
discussed that subject with you.
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any further discussions with Mrs. Paine or
anybody else?
Mrs. FORD. We tried to find out about the Union and my husband called
lawyers and friends of his who would know about it and called the
Secret Service and FBI and nobody would tell us anything about it. They
would send us somewhere else, refer it to someone else to find out, so
we don't find out.
So, I just decided on my own not to go, just to translate.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well now, what is this about going with them, what did
Mrs. Paine ask you?
Mrs. FORD. She thought that maybe since I knew Marina she would rather
confide in me more than just anyone like reporters or someone just from
the Union would go there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you declined to go with them?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when somebody else spoke to you
about this subject?
Mrs. FORD. No, not at all. Just during that time I wanted to find out
if she was in prison.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina respond to the letter that you translated?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; they received an answer right the next day, and the man
from Richardson, who I think is the head of that Union in Dallas, came
to my house and asked me if I could translate it back into English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that man's name?
Mrs. FORD. No; if you mention it I would know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the
name of Gregg Olds?
Mrs. FORD. That is right; yes, that is his name.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Olds say to you when he came to see you?
Mrs. FORD. He just brought the letter and he was rather standing and
he wasn't talking very much. He was kind of a quiet person, I think.
I took the letter--he thought I could just sit there and do it real
fast in front of him, but I had to take it into a room and sort of
concentrate in the living room and translated and giving it to him.
He said, "Thank you," and he left.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when this was?
Mrs. FORD. No; I cannot say. Let's see. I think it was sometime before
Christmas, because after that I sent her a Christmas card.
No, wait a minute, I just can't say if it was before Christmas or
afterward, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if it was before or after Marina
testified before this Commission?
Mrs. FORD. That was before the Warren Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was before the Warren Commission?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina again on the telephone after this
first time?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; I talked to her on the telephone because through my
husband's brother who is a professor in one of the universities in
California, he had a friend by the name of Isaac Levine who does write,
who speaks Russian and writes rather--he wrote a book of on the mind of
the assassin, Trotsky's story. He wanted to contact me and to find out
if Marina had signed a contract on writing a book. So I told him that
I would call the managers, since there was published in the newspaper
at that time, and to find out if they did, and I did call. I called her
lawyer and I asked if she signed for a book, and I called Levine long
distance and told him she did not have a contract signed. Then he told
me that he would like--he wanted to know if he could arrange to see
Marina, and I told him that I would ask the manager and he told me to
contact, for Levine to contact, the attorney and the manager. I saw
later on they have somehow gotten together. I think he wrote to them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when Marina came to your house to
visit?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she brought a letter she wanted me to translate. It was
after this, after I had a contact about the writer Marina called me,
this is the first time, the first time after the assassination that she
called me on the telephone and we talked about that and I told her that
the man had contacted me and he speaks Russian. I thought it would be
a good opportunity for her to write if she wanted to since she could
communicate easily with a writer that speaks Russian. I read his book
that he sent me, and he makes real sense. I invited her to come out
to dinner and, of course, I didn't expect that there would be a whole
company with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come out?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they came out, the Secret Service and the
manager were there and everybody so I cooked a Russian dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?
Mrs. FORD. It was shortly before the Commission, maybe about 2 weeks
before the Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Late in January sometime?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that time that Marina was there did you have any
discussion with her about the events of the assassination or anything
relating to that?
Mrs. FORD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you her possible testimony before
this Commission?
Mrs. FORD. No, not during that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come back to your house again before she came
to testify before the Commission?
Mrs. FORD. Yes, she was once more at my house. During the first time
her manager brought a letter that she wanted to bring to the Governor
about how she feels about Ruby's being executed. She told me she didn't
want, she didn't feel, if she could help she didn't want to have the
killing of a dead man on her conscience, on her mind. She wanted me to
translate that letter and I did translate it.
And I left it at home and later on they came by, I told Mr. Martin
that I would come by his house and bring the letter to her after I
translated.
He said, "If you wanted to we can come back to your house like we did
before." And they did and they picked up the letter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any copy of that letter?
Mrs. FORD. I think maybe I have a copy of it, of my translation. But I
am not positive. I know I put it in a desk.
Representative FORD. This was a letter from whom to whom?
Mrs. FORD. From Marina to, I will say they did--I think it was advised
to her to write it to the Governor, to Governor Connally.
Representative FORD. To Governor Connally?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the present Governor of Texas, that is the Governor of
Texas?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said that Marina said to you she did not want to have
another death on her conscience?
Mrs. FORD. That is right. She feels like, she told me she feels
strongly about it, that people shouldn't kill one another, if there is
no war.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she use the words as you remember it, the words "on
her conscience"?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember that word really but I just feel this
was, she would feel very badly if that would happen.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she seem to feel that she had some responsibility for
these things?
Mrs. FORD. What do you mean by that? I mean how, responsibility in what
way?
Mr. LIEBELER. That she was in anyway a cause of any of these deaths
herself?
Mrs. FORD. No; I wouldn't think she feels this way, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the conversations at the second meeting.
Were there any conversations at that time about her testimony before
the Commission or about the assassination?
Mrs. FORD. I believe she mentioned she was going to Washington at that
time. She knew about going, I believe Martin said that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't talk about her testimony?
Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't, not at all she didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else about her testimony before
the Commission?
Mrs. FORD. I don't know, I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Martin say anything about it?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you saw Marina?
Mrs. FORD. After she came back from Washington.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she come to your house then?
Mrs. FORD. No; she did not. Her lawyer, in fact Mr. Martin, called me
and told me she is staying at her brother-in-law's, and that he wanted
to break the partnership with her, and he asked me if I could go with
her attorney and translate for her the conditions of the break, the
breaking of the contract, and I agreed to go with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. To Robert Oswald?
Mrs. FORD. To Robert Oswald's house; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time after that when Marina came to live
with you in your house?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; when I came there, Marina told me she couldn't stay
another day, she thought, in Robert's house. It was such a small house
and small children and she just didn't like to stay in there at all,
and so I told her, "Well, you could come and stay at my place if you
wanted to," and she said she would love to do that.
Mr. LIEBELER. After Marina moved in with you, did you talk to her
about her testimony before the Commission, that she gave before the
Commission?
Mrs. FORD. No; we never talked about what she did. She told me she had
it, written something. She said something maybe that someone mentioned
in the Commission that that was rather good for a novel but not for the
testimony.
She said, well, she had written the way she remembers her past, those
are the words she made.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was referring to a statement she had written.
Mrs. FORD. She had written, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she show it to you?
Mrs. FORD. No; I have never seen it.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you or at any
other time, did she say anything to you about this incident where Mr.
Oswald was allegedly going to attack Mr. Nixon?
Mrs. FORD. No; I hadn't learned about that until later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss it with Marina?
Mrs. FORD. Somehow she didn't feel, she didn't want to discuss it very
much, she felt badly that it came out, I suppose or something. She
didn't want it to.
Mr. LIEBELER. But she did talk to you about it?
Mrs. FORD. She talked to me because I had to translate it to her,
the discussion with her lawyer, and he, I think, the FBI were at the
lawyer's office while they went to talk to her about the subject, and I
had to translate what she was telling the lawyer about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with her about this Nixon
affair at a time when the FBI was not present?
Mrs. FORD. I think going home, I just maybe, I don't know what I asked
her. She said the same thing actually what she said in the office, that
she held him in the bathroom and I asked her how was it finished, and
she said, "I talked him out of it," and he said, "If you will keep me
in the bathroom, just give me something to read." She didn't talk very
much about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she could lock Lee in the bathroom?
Mrs. FORD. No; it never occurred to me to ask her and I did not ask her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with anybody else how she
could lock anybody in the bathroom?
Mrs. FORD. Not until yesterday with my husband, how she could do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything else that Marina told you about this
Nixon affair that you can remember now?
Did she tell you when it happened?
Mrs. FORD. No; she told me only that, that she said she mixed up dates.
She thought it was one month and it was, supposedly happened, another
month and she said that a lot of times she doesn't remember exactly the
month.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the General Walker affair?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she told me something about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that?
Mrs. FORD. She said in the first place, people are saying that maybe
she knew ahead of time and she said she did not. Lee told her after it
had happened, after he had shot, and he told her, "Well, I just tried
to shoot Walker." She said she was rather angry and she told him if he
ever does that again, she said, "Don't ever do that again," she was
rather disgusted--that he shouldn't do such a thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about any note that he had written in
connection with the attack on General Walker?
Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether the Walker incident occurred
before or after the Nixon incident?
Mrs. FORD. I don't know. She never said it to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she discuss with you during this period that she had
been living in your house any of the details of the assassination?
Mrs. FORD. I, frankly, just didn't feel like asking her questions, I
really felt like I just wanted to help her, that is all. She never
brought the subject up herself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about what happened on Thursday
night when Lee Oswald came back from Irving to Dallas?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said that was not long ago, and she somehow found
out someone, I think Robert, told her there was some evidence that
someone saw a boy running across--a boy saw someone running across
the yard or something, and he thought maybe there was some other man
involved. And she began to say, "Well, if Lee didn't kill the President
why did he come home on Thursday and why did he leave his ring at home
and why was the gun taken from the garage." I mean she was putting that
together, she was making me believe that Lee was doing it.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was considering at that time the possibility that Lee
Oswald was not?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Guilty of this?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; Robert, I believe, was telling her that, that there
was a possibility that somebody else did the crime and she was talking
about that to me, and that is when she said about why would he come
back on Thursday when he never did that before, and also that he would
leave a ring that was to her it would mean something that he didn't
want--he didn't feel like he would return or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Marina her feeling as to Lee
Oswald's guilt or innocence in this matter?
Mrs. FORD. Well, she feels that--no, I don't remember her discussing
it. I think she asked him after she saw him after the assassination he
told her no, he did not kill anybody. He told her that. But I think her
own conclusion is that he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with her as to whether Lee
Oswald was angry with President Kennedy for any reason?
Mrs. FORD. No; she told me that he actually never did say anything bad
about Kennedy. He didn't like General Walker because he compared him
rather with Hitler in some way. He said, he was telling her, she was
asking him why would he kill a man like that, I mean that he should not
kill anybody. He said, he told her, well, if somebody killed Hitler
ahead of time that wouldn't have happened in Germany and he says he
felt like it was his duty to get rid of men where he was a Fascist,
speaking about General Walker.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything about Lee's attitude toward
Governor Connally?
Mrs. FORD. No; she never discussed that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina about Marina's feelings toward
Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. FORD. Lately, I have been talking to her about that, and Mrs.
Paine, I know, tried to contact her and asked Marina why she did not
want to write to her, because I know that she had written to her often.
Somehow she doesn't like Mrs. Paine and then she said she feels that
Martin told her that Mrs. Paine was making money on her articles about
Marina, and she don't like that.
I got, even lately, Mrs. Paine called me up, and I believe it was only
a pretense because she knew that I had a contact with Marina and she
wanted to see Marina. She came to my house and told me she wanted for
me to read in Russian very slowly that she could follow me for her
students. She is teaching Russian to some students in private school
and that she could record it and then listen to it, and she said she
would pay me for the services, and at the time, the same time.
So, I had Marina that evening, I know she would want to see her, so I
invited Marina to my house and at the time Mrs. Paine was coming.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told her Mrs. Paine was coming?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; I told her Mrs. Paine was coming and she only said she
didn't want Mrs. Paine for her to know the telephone number or the
house she lives in. She said she would come in all the time and she
didn't exactly like her. She didn't want to see her at her house, not
now anyway, she said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina and Mrs. Paine meet this evening at your house?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did, they talked.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did they say to each other?
Mrs. FORD. Well, frankly, I got an idea that Mrs. Paine came there
to convince Marina to write a book with Mr. Levine who is rather
persistent about it at the moment. He wants to start writing a book
before Marina finishes with her lawyer and attorney--and her manager.
She knows and she is advised by her attorney now not to do it before it
is finished, and I think Mrs. Paine tried to talk her into it.
Mr. LIEBELER. They didn't discuss anything about the assassination or
Mrs. Oswald's testimony before the Commission?
Mrs. FORD. No; I did not hear it.
Mr. LIEBELER. So far as you heard.
Did Marina ever tell you anything about the trip to Mexico that Lee
Oswald took?
Mrs. FORD. Well, let's see. I think she was saying something about
it that she did not mention to the FBI but she mentioned it to the
Commission. She did say that. And that the FBI wanted to talk with her,
that was the reason they wanted to come back again and talk with her.
They came to my house quite often during the time she stayed at my
house and talked with her, and she said that was the subject, and they
asked her why she did not say it to start with, and she said well, she
had begun to get tired of the FBI and she didn't like to talk with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI had been interviewing her while she stayed at
your place?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been present at any of those interviews?
Mrs. FORD. No; unless they needed--no; I was not present.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were present at an FBI interview at Mr. McKenzie's
office at one time?
Mrs. FORD. At Mr. McKenzie's office, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a translator present when the FBI interviewed
Marina?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; there is at the moment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his name?
Mrs. FORD. Mr. Gopadze.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina discussed with you the questions that the FBI
has been asking her?
Mrs. FORD. No; except this particular Mexican trip.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything about the details of that trip?
Mrs. FORD. On that trip--she did not go into details of the trip; but
certain things about--she asked Lee to bring her a bracelet and he
didn't, things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about a desire that Lee Oswald had
to go to Cuba?
Mrs. FORD. Well, this is something that she talked about but I don't
remember how--she said he wanted to actually go to Cuba. He wanted to
get a visa to go to Russia but he would go to Russia by the way of
Cuba, and she thought that he would stay in Cuba and not go to Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you what she was supposed to do when
Oswald was in Cuba.
Mrs. FORD. Frankly, I don't know. I know that subject was discussed one
time but I either had to go diaper the baby or something. I just cannot
say--I know she tried to talk on this subject to Mr. Levine once and
she explained it. It was a rather complicated sort of a thing and I
cannot explain it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she express any fears that Oswald was going to leave
her and go to Cuba and abandon her.
Mrs. FORD. There was a possibility--something she would stay here or
something, and for a while, and we were asking her well, how did she
intend to live while he was gone, and she thought, well, she said,
well, Lee said, "You have a lot of Russian friends and they will help
you," while he is not here, that was the conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of any plans that Oswald had to
hijack an airplane and go to Cuba?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say?
Mrs. FORD. Well, that was again, I believe she was discussing with
Mr. Levine at the time about this Cuba and this airplane. It is again
complicated, I don't think I can say it to make sense, somehow that he
had to go, had to have enough gasoline or something to go there, not to
make a stop anywhere. I could not say it to make any sense. I know she
was talking about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about the
assassination?
Mrs. FORD. No; we we never discussed it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Robert Oswald never expressed to you any thoughts that he
had on Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence?
Mrs. FORD. I understand he didn't like the cover of Life magazine and I
was rather surprised because it was in my mind like it seems there is
no question. Nobody knows very sure but I feel like it was Lee that did
it. And he was rather angry about the statement there that it was a gun
with which the President was killed, and he was rather angry about that
cover, and that is why I thought that maybe he didn't believe that Lee
killed him.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the only discussion you had with Robert Oswald?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is the only one, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Marina about any rifle practice that
Lee Oswald may have engaged in?
Mrs. FORD. I didn't discuss it with him but she said that she didn't
think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of
things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she
didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie you are referring to?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Grand Prairie?
Mrs. FORD. That is right. She didn't think he was doing that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about him practicing with the rifle
any place else?
Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention that he had practiced with the rifle at
Love Field?
Mrs. FORD. She didn't say anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you that indicated she
wanted to go back to Russia?
You said before that she told Lee Oswald that if he wanted to go back
to Russia he could go but she wasn't going to go.
But did she ever indicate to you at any time she wanted to go back to
Russia?
Mrs. FORD. She did not. Again the first call after the assassination
she asked me, she said, "You know I have a visa, a pending visa, to go
to Russia and if they will send it to me, I may have to go." I sort of
answered her, I am pretty sure they wouldn't send her a visa now so she
doesn't have to worry about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yesterday afternoon we discussed some of these things,
did we not?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald had told you
that at one time she was thinking about committing suicide?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she mentioned that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.
Mrs. FORD. She said she didn't want to have it published anywhere, she
is rather ashamed of it. But there was a time after all the--I think
it was before she went to New Orleans and before she lived at Paine's
house, that there was a time that she didn't have any friends, all the
Russian friends left her, I believe De Mohrenschildts were gone during
that time, and that Lee was treating her rather badly at the time and
she just felt like she had no way out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you anything other than that? Did she tell
you she actually tried to commit suicide or was it something she was
thinking of?
Mrs. FORD. She didn't tell me the particulars but somehow Lee found out
what was on her mind because he had beaten her again and told her only
crazy people would consider doing a thing like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. She said Lee had found out she had thought of committing
suicide?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you how he found out?
Mrs. FORD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate to you in any way that she had ever
tried to do this?
Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me the particulars of it, I didn't
want to, I mean I just didn't, ask her for all the details about it.
But she was saying she was thinking about doing it at a certain time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to press you too hard about it but
there is quite a difference between thinking about doing it and
actually doing it.
The CHAIRMAN. She didn't hear it, she didn't hear it, did she?
Mr. LIEBELER. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. All right, that is enough.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you write to Marina at any time after the
assassination?
Mrs. FORD. Did I write to her?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. FORD. I sent her a Christmas card; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Any other letters?
Mrs. FORD. No; no letters.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI, do
you remember?
Mrs. FORD. FBI maybe twice. The first time, soon after the
assassination; the same day that Lee Oswald was shot.
Actually we heard by radio, friends of ours had called us, anyone who
knew Lee Oswald was supposed to come out and say it and call the FBI or
the police. So we called the FBI and we said we did know and we came to
the office ourselves and to talk about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been interviewed by the Secret Service?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. In our conversation yesterday we discussed your testimony
and reviewed these matters. Is there anything you can remember that we
discussed at that time that we have not talked about here now?
Mrs. FORD. I don't remember. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other information that you have that you
think the Commission would like to know about that we don't have
relating to the assassination?
Mrs. FORD. I don't think there is anything of importance that you don't
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any papers relating to these matters other
than I think you mentioned a copy of the letter that you translated for
the American Civil Liberties Union, other than that paper, do you have
any papers that might relate to these questions I asked you?
Mrs. FORD. No; I might have a copy of the letter that Marina was
writing for----
Mr. LIEBELER. To Governor Connally?
Mrs. FORD. To Governor Connally, and it is just rather a translation in
my own handwriting.
Mr. LIEBELER. On this point about the rifle practice, did Marina tell
you simply that he did not practice at the range at Grand Prairie or he
did not practice at any place with the rifle?
Mrs. FORD. I think she was talking about the particular range.
Mr. LIEBELER. Particularly Grand Prairie?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And she didn't say anything about any other practice?
Mrs. FORD. She was telling me that people were--supposedly saw him in
San Antonio and she knew for sure he wasn't there, and then she was
saying they saw him at Grand Prairie practicing and she thought that he
wasn't there, and then again in Ruby's place and she knew sure that Lee
would never go to a place like that, things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, do you have some questions for Mrs.
Ford?
Representative FORD. Mr. Chief Justice, I have one or two.
The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, please.
Representative FORD. Did Marina Oswald ever tell you about her
schooling in Russia?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did. I think that would be a junior college here.
She would finish 7 or 8 years, I don't know exactly, and then I think
it is 4 years in a junior college which would make her in my opinion an
assistant pharmacist.