Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you about her move to Minsk?
Mrs. FORD. Well, she didn't tell me at that time. I just found it out
not too long ago that was the reasons she wanted to get away from a
friend that she found out later that he was married, she went with him
for a short while she did not know he was married, but she did not go
into particulars of explaining the whole thing to me.
Representative FORD. She was going with a man who was married?
Mrs. FORD. Yes. She met him somewhere, she had two tickets, she said,
to a theater or to a movie, and she wanted to sell one ticket and he
was the person who bought the ticket and they sat together in a movie
house and later on, I believe, I don't know how they got to know each
other later on, it was a few times they met, they have seen each other
and at one time she went to his apartment, to the house that he lived,
to call on him, and someone said that, "oh, that is the man who has
that little boy," and she said she just turned around and went home.
That is the time she found out he was married and was deceiving her.
But I don't know why she left, I mean why, exactly she left but I think
this is the person that was her reason for leaving Leningrad.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had left in part at least to
get away from this man?
Mrs. FORD. That is what I understood.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did Marina tell you why she married Lee Oswald when
she was in Russia, did she talk to you about that?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.
I don't exactly know why she married him. But she said she met him at a
dance, and soon after that, I don't know the reason why he was in the
hospital but he was in a hospital, and she called on him, and I don't
know how long he stayed there, either, and she liked the man, I think,
and she bought him an Easter Egg, that was during Easter sometime and
he was very surprised that such a thing could be done in Russia.
I think it rather pleased him very well. She said somehow she felt
sorry for the man because none of her friends liked him, and mistrusted
him, and she felt sort of like she was on the defensive, she wanted to,
she felt sorry for him in a way.
Representative FORD. Did she tell you why her friends didn't trust him?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she said they were thinking that he was an American
spy or something like that, that is what they were trying to tell her.
"Maybe he is a spy, and how can you trust a man like that?"
She told me the other day, she says no one trusted him, but she says,
"I wasn't afraid of him," that is how she put it.
Representative FORD. Did Marina indicate to you whether she thought or
had any reason to believe that Oswald was a spy?
Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. She didn't think so. She never said that, I
mean.
Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you or did you gather
that one of the reasons that Marina married Lee Oswald was she had the
possibility of leaving the Soviet Union in mind?
Mrs. FORD. Yes. She never did go out directly and say that but I think
I got an impression that was her reason. She was telling me that way
before she met Oswald she was dreaming of coming over here, and that
is, I mean gathering by that later I thought that she wanted to come
over, and he was, I suppose he was a reason.
Mr. LIEBELER. In this connection, I wanted to ask you whether you ever
had any contact with any newspaper reporters from the Dallas newspapers
about this, did they ask you about this at any time?
Mrs. FORD. About this I don't remember if they asked me. I don't
remember. But a couple of reporters came to my house soon after the
assassination and talked to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that there was a story in the November
27, 1963, issue of the Dallas Times Herald which told about some
Russian-born woman in Dallas to whom Marina had supposedly confided
some of the most intimate secrets of her stormy marriage, in the words
of the newspaper article. Do you have any knowledge whether that would
be you or somebody else?
Mrs. FORD. I think that would be me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the reporters that Marina had told you that
Marina had felt sorry for Oswald because everybody hated him even in
Russia?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; I might have said that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina did say that to you?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything at this time about their
trip back to the United States and the difficulties that they
encountered, or how they did it, that sort of thing?
Mrs. FORD. No; I never talked with her about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation while Marina stayed with you
during that week in November 1962, about the possibility of a divorce,
of her divorcing Lee Oswald?
Mrs. FORD. The possibility--I know she didn't want to go back to him at
the time she stayed with me.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember any specific conversation?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember any specific conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. About divorce?
Mrs. FORD. Frankly, there was talk about it, she didn't want to go back
and I just told her, I felt that Marina wasn't really the domestic type
she could stand very long being a help at home, not that I think she is
not capable of taking care of her own house. I see now since she has
got even her own place she keeps it very clean and her children are
always neat. But she wasn't right for domestic help and I told her to
stay with Lee, that is what I told her myself, and wait until she could
be able to take care of herself other than working in a house.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she say about that?
Mrs. FORD. She didn't say, she was really just listening, I think, and
she didn't say anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina say anything to you at this time about wanting
to go back to Russia?
Mrs. FORD. No, no; she didn't want to.
In fact, she told me that Lee soon after he came to the United States,
he was telling her that he would want to go back because he couldn't
find a job here and he was, of course, seeing a lot of difficulties for
himself, and Marina said, "If you want to go back, you can go but I am
not going," that is what she told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told Lee if he wanted to go back he could but she
wasn't going to go back to Russia.
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all the conversation that you had with her about
going back to Russia at that time?
Mrs. FORD. That is right. That is about all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where the Oswalds lived at this time when
Marina came to the Meller's house and then to your house?
Mrs. FORD. No; I have never been at their apartment, and she couldn't
tell me. I know she lived in Oak Cliff, the Dallas section about
southwest, I believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Dallas?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina had lived with a lady in Fort
Worth before they came to Dallas?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; I know they stayed there but I didn't talk to her
during the time and I didn't visit her. I know she stayed at Elena
Hall's house and I think Elena had an accident just before that and she
was--she stayed in bed most of the time. Marina was helping her out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you had only seen Lee Oswald, up to this week that
Marina came to live with you, one time, is that correct?
Mrs. FORD. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was the Meller's luncheon party?
Mrs. FORD. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised on the basis of any judgment you might
have made of Lee Oswald to learn that he had beaten his wife?
Mrs. FORD. Just from seeing him once I would not have made--no; that
he has beaten his wife; no, I didn't think at that time. I did, when
she came in after I learned that he has beaten her, I was rather--I
remember the bruises on her face and that rather made signs to me that
he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it surprise you that he would have done this?
Mrs. FORD. No; it did not surprise me. I just felt that young man as he
was, if he was--decided to go to Russia after living in a country like
the United States, I didn't feel he was very, what shall I say, how
would you say, a person's mind won't work at this time----
The CHAIRMAN. Unstable?
Mrs. FORD. Unstable, that is how I felt. I felt a person like that, I
felt frankly could do anything.
Representative FORD. Did she ever tell you that Lee Oswald was the
cause of these bruises on her face?
Mrs. FORD. Well, she did tell me after she came to the house to stay
with me.
Representative FORD. That is what I mean?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Representative FORD. The bruises you saw on her face at the house she
told you Lee Oswald was the cause?
Mrs. FORD. Yes, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's clarify that a little. Did Marina Oswald have any
bruises at the time she came to live in your house in November 1962?
Mrs. FORD. No; that is right. But she stayed at Anna Meller's house
for a week and when she came to Anna Meller's house I heard there were
bruises at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Anna Meller tell you that?
Mrs. FORD. Either Anna Meller or George Bouhe told me that. I don't
remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you yourself did see bruises on her face the first
time?
Mrs. FORD. I did see the first time; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that Lee Oswald had given her those
bruises?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that when she stayed with you?
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances under which Marina left your
home in November of 1962, where she went and what happened?
Mrs. FORD. Well, she stayed with me a week, and my husband came home
on Saturday, and we discussed with another friend of mine for Marina
to go to her house and stay there as long as she wanted, and I think
Sunday morning this friend of mine, Anna Ray, came with a station wagon
and picked all her things up, her playpen she had for baby, and diapers
and things, and took her to her house and I believe my husband was with
her, too, at that time and that is how she left.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you know how long she stayed with the Rays?
Mrs. FORD. With the Rays. I think she just stayed there, she had had
dinner there, I believe she stayed one afternoon. I don't know how soon
Lee came there but he came soon over to the house, but Marina said he
cried and begged her to return, he would be nothing, if she didn't
return, he would be finished, that is what he was telling her, and she
said she just couldn't say, no to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. So she returned to Oswald at that time?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she returned to Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk with the Mellers about their
experiences with Marina when she lived at their house for that time?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember, she did not discuss it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remember or did you know where Lee Oswald was
living prior to the time that Marina came to Dallas?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't know where he lived at any time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he was working at that time or if he
was working at all?
Mrs. FORD. During the time they lived in Dallas, I believe, I don't
know exactly, though, either George Bouhe or Anna Meller's husband
found him a job in a printing shop, I think, or I believe it is
printing shop, somewhere in Oak Cliff, and that is why they had an
apartment there. I remember that is the reason because George Bouhe was
rather mad at Marina for taking an apartment in Oak Cliff because it
was too far for him to drive and help her when she needed help and the
baby, I think he was taking her to the dentist and taking the baby to a
doctor to help her in ways that she couldn't do herself.
Representative FORD. Who was doing this driving?
Mrs. FORD. I believe George Bouhe did this. He has the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Mr. Bouhe live?
Mrs. FORD. He lives, well, I don't know his address now. I know where
he lives but I don't know the street number.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it is not in the Oak Cliff Section of Dallas?
Mrs. FORD. No; it is not. I think it would be in the east part of
Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina stayed with you, did she say
anything to you about Lee Oswald's political beliefs or his attitudes
concerning politics?
Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't talk to me about that and I didn't ask her.
Frankly, I didn't talk with Lee about that, I didn't feel the need of
it myself to discuss politics with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that subject with any of your friends?
Mrs. FORD. Well, yes. They were telling me, those friends that went
to his apartment, were telling me, that they have seen books like
Karl Marx open in front of him, just lying there on the table, that he
didn't even hide it when someone came in, and then someone else said
there was a book laying there of How to Be a Spy, laying right open
there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?
Mrs. FORD. I believe it was Lydia Dymitruk.
Mr. LIEBELER. D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k.
Do you remember anything about that particular conversation?
Mrs. FORD. Well, she was telling me, she took, when the baby left my
house, she had a cold, and it was getting worse, and I believe soon
after she left Anna Ray, the baby began to have a fever, and Lydia, I
believe, I don't know how she got to go to her apartment, really, I
don't know the reason she went there; she went there and wanted to take
the baby to the doctor and she told me of an incident that says even
Marina was ashamed of Lee because when she took her to the hospital Lee
was lying about that he didn't have a job at the time, which Lydia knew
that he did have. He didn't want to pay for the services, and people at
the hospital was asking him how does he pay for the apartment and he
was telling them that, "My friends were helping me," and Marina just
said something in Russian that Lydia remembers, "What a liar," you
know, behind his back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that so he could hear it?
Mrs. FORD. I think so, because she said it aloud.
Mr. LIEBELER. And she said it in Russian?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER. In front of Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; that is right, and Lydia was rather mad about the whole
thing and she said she is not going to help them any more if they are
acting that way.
The baby wasn't helped at the hospital. I think the hospital didn't
want to take the child because the father couldn't pay, that is what I
got, the father couldn't pay for it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Marina say anything adverse to Oswald in
his presence, did she run him down or make fun of him in public so far
as you know?
Mrs. FORD. As far as I know, I don't, except the first time, the one
time, I would think when she said, "What a liar," in front of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other instance when she would have
done that?
Mrs. FORD. I don't know of any other instance.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether she ever spoke of his political views
before other people or make fun of him?
Mrs. FORD. No; I don't remember except lately I have been talking to
her about that and she said she thought of him being young, and she
thought she hoped it would pass with years, that he would mature, this
is what she was telling me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not she discussed politics
with him herself? Did she argue with him about anything?
Mrs. FORD. She said she was arguing with him about that. Certainly, in
fact, he called her, she was typical American girl, that she is not
interested at all in politics, except in the material things that he
wasn't interested in. She said she wanted a house and a family and he
said, "All the American girls think that way" and he thought he married
a different sort of a girl, a Russian girl.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, think back on that week that Marina stayed with you.
Is there anything else that happened or is there anything that Marina
told you that you think we should know about and about which I haven't
already asked you?
Mrs. FORD. I cannot think of it at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds'?
Mrs. FORD. It was right after Christmas before New Year's. I believe it
was the 28th of December, a Friday. I gave, I had, a party for all the
friends, and I invited a family by the name of De Mohrenschildt, wife
and husband, and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt called me up and asked me if she
couldn't bring Marina and her husband over because she was saying it
is a shame the way all their Russian friends have forsaken them during
that time and they had no place to go and the De Mohrenschildts were
the only ones helping them at the time, and I told her I didn't object
to it. So she brought them over with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Bouhe at the party?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were Elena Hall and her husband there?
Mrs. FORD. I don't remember them being at that party. I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were the Mellers there?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that De Mohrenschildt was there.
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the Oswalds.
Mrs. FORD. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there a gentleman by the name of Allen A. Jackson at
the party?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And his wife?
Mrs. FORD. And his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversations or observe any
conversations between Marina Oswald and Mr. Jackson?
Mrs. FORD. Marina Oswald, no; I don't think so. I don't think Marina
spoke English at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Charles Edward Harris at the party?
Mrs. FORD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mr. and Mrs. Harris about the party
afterward?
Mrs. FORD. I might have.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she mention translating a conversation between Mr.
Jackson and Marina Oswald?
Mrs. FORD. No; she did not mention it to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see her doing that?
Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't see her doing that at the party.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Lee Oswald at the
party that night?
Mrs. FORD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice anybody else talking to him?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; I did. I noticed a girl talking to him who was of
Japanese descent but I don't remember her name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything striking about that?
Mrs. FORD. No; I think, the only thing it was that I think he talked
to her most of the time and wasn't making any conversation with anyone
else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina comment on that to you?
Mrs. FORD. No; she didn't. But I heard from somebody else that she did
comment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?
Mrs. FORD. I think George Bouhe again. He always spoke to everybody.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Bouhe say about that?
Mrs. FORD. Well, he said something that I asked Marina afterward and
she told me that it wasn't true. He said that Lee talked to that
Japanese girl like a--it is an expression in Russia to take a bath and
then beat themselves with the leaves from a tree, and the leaf would
stick to the body, in the wintertime, and so the expression from that,
like a leaf sticks to the hot body when you take a bath, you know.
Then I suppose Lee struck her as just not saying anything--and I asked
Marina and she said he did not do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any talk at the party about Oswald's
experiences in Russia or his marriage to Marina?
Mrs. FORD. During the party?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. FORD. No; I didn't talk to him at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't overhear anybody else talking about
Oswald's experiences in Russia?
Mrs. FORD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the Oswalds came with De
Mohrensehildt. Did they go home with De Mohrensehildt?
Mrs. FORD. Yes; they did because Mrs. De Mohrensehildt stated that the
lady who stayed with Oswald's child had to leave at 12 o'clock and they
left before that.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the Oswalds left the party, was there any
discussion about the Oswalds that you can remember?
Mrs. FORD. No; really not. I don't think they made a big impression on
that party on anybody.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date on which your party was held?
Mrs. FORD. The 28th of December.
Mr. LIEBELER. What year?
Mrs. FORD. 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any other party the next day or the day after
that?
Mrs. FORD. There were other parties. I don't think that Marina and
her husband were present. I don't know if you would call it a party,
there was a sort of a get-together at my house afterward because some
people stayed over in town for a few days, I think that was the Rays,
and the Harrises, and a friend of my husband from Louisiana, Sullivans,
stayed there. But they hadn't met Oswald, they came much later after 12
o'clock. So we sort of had a get-together.
Mr. LIEBELER. This would have been the next day?
Mrs. FORD. The next day.
Mr. LIEBELER. On the 29th of December.