Mr. SPECTER. The second Sunday after the assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the sixth interview conducted?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was at the Pizza Inn.
Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was that?
Mr. ROWLAND. About 1 o'clock. This was again right after I came to work.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to
writing?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was again informal, just taking notes on my statement,
had me recount what I had told the other agents.
Mr. SPECTER. What were they interested in specifically at that time if
you recall?
Mr. ROWLAND. They just wanted me to recount everything that I could
recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Were they again different agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; they were.
Mr. SPECTER. From all those you had seen before?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When had you given the seventh statement to the FBI?
Mr. ROWLAND. The last statement I gave I think it was to one FBI agent
and a Secret Service Agent.
Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur?
Mr. ROWLAND. That was either Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. I do not
remember which.
Mr. SPECTER. On the week following the Sunday when you gave the sixth
statement?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the identities of those men?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen either before?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I hadn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they reduce your statement to writing?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; they just had me recount everything again.
Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have already stated, have you
ever been interviewed by the FBI on any other occasion?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Secret Service on
any other occasion?
Mr. ROWLAND. The afternoon of the 22d and the seventh time was the only
two times of the Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. There was a Secret Service agent present in the sheriff's
office?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; he was Agent Sorrels.
Mr. SPECTER. When you gave the affidavit which we have identified as
Commission Exhibit 357?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have mentioned, have you
ever been interviewed by any agent or representative of the Federal
Government?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other agent or
representative of the State Government of Texas?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you
testified about, did you mention seeing the Negro gentleman in the
window which we have circled with the "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high
school?
Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's,
in my senior year I got a couple of B's.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what your IQ or intelligence quotient is?
Mr. ROWLAND. 147.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when you were tested for that?
Mr. ROWLAND. In 1963; in May.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions.
Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro
gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to
height, weight, age?
Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or
practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid
shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I
remember it.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age?
Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height?
Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender,
very thin.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to
complexion?
Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some
Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't
recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.
Mr. SPECTER. Shortly after the assassination and before these
interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you
learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the
window which we have marked with the "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when
I read the paper.
Mr. SPECTER. Which Saturday is that?
Mr. ROWLAND. The following Saturday.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that be the second day, the day after the
assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any
particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom
you have described, that you saw in window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI
agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because
I did not think of it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention
before they left, and they----
Mr. SPECTER. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November
23?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it
to the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the
balance of the interviews you have described?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who
interviewed me where I worked.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the following Sunday?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I move for the admission
into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
Mr. SPECTER. Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358. That completes our
questioning, Your Honor.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 356,
357, and 358 for identification and admitted into evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?
Senator COOPER. You said earlier that you had been much interested in
and pursued studies in sounds, I believe?
Mr. ROWLAND. I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and
science is what I like.
Senator COOPER. You said you had read books on this subject. Did you
ever conduct any experiments yourself?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a
basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver
to have sound. There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the
middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it,
there is no sound.
Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I--it is very
interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't
disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a
receiver.
Senator COOPER. Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles,
firing a rifle in relation to sound?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in a firing range.
Senator COOPER. Beg pardon?
Mr. ROWLAND. Firing range.
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. ROWLAND. I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a
bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire
into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we
had several different articles and composition floating on the water,
trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. Such as this
we did conduct.
Senator COOPER. I think you did say that when you heard the first
report that you considered it to be a rifle shot?
Mr. ROWLAND. I did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing
so I did not give it any further consideration until the second shot,
second report.
Senator COOPER. At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the
Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there
were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was an officer about 20 feet to my left.
Senator COOPER. Did you see any others?
Mr. ROWLAND. There were officers all over, that was the closest one.
There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of
them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit.
There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building.
There were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed
officers right there in that 1-1/2-block area.
Senator COOPER. Could any of the officers that you saw whose position
you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were
standing?
Mr. ROWLAND. They could have; yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. You don't remember whether any of them were looking up
there?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't.
Senator COOPER. Did it occur to you that you should speak to the
officer about seeing a man in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir?
Senator COOPER. What?
Mr. ROWLAND. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams?
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. ROWLAND. This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time,
what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance
and perhaps it could have been prevented. I mean this is something
which shakes me up at times.
Senator COOPER. I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was
at the time did you--I think you said, though, you thought that he was
a--he could have been a--Secret Service man, officer.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right.
Senator COOPER. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Anything further, Congressman Ford?
Representative FORD. Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back
to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back----
The CHAIRMAN. Supposing we take a few minutes recess.
Mr. ROWLAND. The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I
pass that area very frequently.
The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright?
Mr. WRIGHT. No, Your Honor.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming
here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter
that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you
would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and
cooperative with us and I appreciate it.
We will take a short recess.
(Short recess.)