Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Each word that you were saying?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph,
as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an
electric typewriter that she brought into the room.
Mr. SPECTER. Did she type up what you had said?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; typed up three or four copies and then I signed it at
that time.
Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to
be an affidavit which you gave to the Sheriff's Department of the
County of Dallas, Tex., on November 22, 1963, and has been marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 357. Would you take a look at that, take your
time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit which
you took on the occasion which you have just related?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. In fact, at this time I also noted that my wife
dragged me across the street.
Mr. SPECTER. Just one detail on that statement: There is a reference
here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you
describe as "a parade-rest sort of position." That appears----
Mr. ROWLAND. It does appear in there?
Mr. SPECTER. Eighteen lines down.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I see it. It wasn't a parade-rest position. It was
a port-arms position. I never noticed that in there before. There
were--actually, I will say this, I said what I had to say. The FBI
agent reworded it, and she took it down.
Now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever use the words "parade-rest" position?
Mr. ROWLAND. Not to my recollection.
Mr. SPECTER. So it is just an error in transcription which you did not
notice when you signed it.
(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)
Is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you
have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection
of what you saw and heard on that date?
Mr. ROWLAND. Here it states we were at the west entrance of the
sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were 25 feet
from there, in fact.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other portions of it which vary from your
current recollection?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember saying definitely that he was back about
15 feet. In fact, I think I said, as I said now, 3 to 5 feet, because
from my point of view if he was back 15 feet I couldn't have even seen
him.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from
your current recollection?
Mr. ROWLAND. The actual time between the reports I would say now, after
having had time to consider the 6 seconds between the first and second
report and two between the second and third. It is very fast for a
bolt-loading rifle.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in
that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time
span of 8 seconds between the first and second shots and a time span of
3 seconds between the second and third shots?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think I did tell them that, yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And with respect to the facts which appear in the
statement that you said the man was standing about 15 feet back
from the windows, did you actually tell them that when you made the
statement, or is that an error of transcription?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think I said that.
Mr. SPECTER. Now are there any other points where the affidavit is at
variance from your current recollection?
Mr. ROWLAND. The time that it states here, we arrived in downtown
Dallas at approximately 12:10. Actually we arrived before 12 but we
took the position that we have, approximately 12:10, that position "V"
on this other Exhibit 354.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other variances between your current
recollection and this statement?
Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think so.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the police officials at the time you made
this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the
southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you
have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast?
Mr. ROWLAND. At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there
were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took
another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this
was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro
man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the
case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it
now.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for
us?
(Answer read.)
Mr. SPECTER. I am now handing you a document which I have marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 358, which purports to be a reproduction of a
statement which was purportedly given by you to the FBI, two agents of
that Bureau.
Will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which
you gave to the FBI to which you just referred?
Mr. ROWLAND. Again, I have a variance of time and a variance of
distance that he was from the window.
Mr. SPECTER. Before you direct your attention to those factors, Mr.
Rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement
which you gave to the FBI?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife was with me when I gave the statement.
Mr. SPECTER. And without looking at the statement which, may the record
show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the FBI,
don't look there, just tell me if you can recollect without seeing
their names on the statement?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I talked to seven different pairs of FBI agents
and I don't remember their names.
Mr. SPECTER. Seven different pairs?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir; I had--this is only one of the statements. They
came to my home or where I worked and took three more besides this one.
There were four handwritten statements that I signed.
Mr. SPECTER. Before getting the details on those, tell me in what
respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as Commission
Exhibit No. 358 differs from what you told the FBI agents at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think it differs.
Mr. SPECTER. Then that statement accurately reflects what you said at
that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am sure it does.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary
from your current recollection about the facts which are contained
therein?
Mr. ROWLAND. The time factor, the time that we arrived in town. Here
again it states 12:10. Now this is the time that we arrived at the
position that we stayed at, not the time we arrived in town, and the
distance the man was back from the window. Here it states 12 to 15
feet. I do not remember saying that although I very well could have.
Everything was confusing.
Mr. SPECTER. But what is your current recollection on the distance that
the man was back from the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. Three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood.
He wasn't very far. Far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the
angle the sun was that wouldn't be very far.
Mr. SPECTER. Now noticing that the date on that statement is November
24, 1963, does that appear to you to be the date when that statement
was taken, or was it taken on the 23d, the day after the assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was Saturday morning, the 24th.
Mr. SPECTER. On what day was the assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was Thursday, wasn't it?
Mr. SPECTER. No; the assassination occurred on Friday.
Mr. ROWLAND. I am sorry, that is right. It is so confused in this.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, was the statement taken the second day after the
assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; it was taken on Saturday morning before I went to work
because on Sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job
where I was working. This occurred right after Oswald was shot himself.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, are you able to identify that statement which we
have marked Exhibit 358, as the statement taken on Saturday, the 23d,
as distinguished from the statement taken on Sunday, the 24th of
November?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How can you be certain of that, Mr. Rowland?
Mr. ROWLAND. The one on Sunday, this particular one, I do remember the
agent used a legal pad. He did have three pages of it handwritten. I
made corrections on this in different parts of it. The one on Sunday
was not a legal pad. It was a steno pad and it, in fact, covered a page
and a half, I think, and it was concerned with mainly could I identify
the man that I saw, his description.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which
you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that
time tell the interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who
you testified was in the window which you marked with an "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ask them at that time to include the information
in the statement which they took from you?
Mr. ROWLAND. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as
an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also
told the agents that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't
seem very interested, so I just forgot about it for a while.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that information included in the written portion of
the statement which was taken from you on Sunday?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it
though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after
putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription?
Mr. ROWLAND. Omitted it.
Senator COOPER. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI
agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that
they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. What
did they say which gave you that impression?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was
again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify
the man that I saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought
up to them about the Negro man after I had signed the statement, and at
that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about
or if anyone could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't
seem interested at all. They didn't pursue the point. They didn't take
it down in the notation as such.
Mr. SPECTER. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't
include it?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Or that they said something which led you to believe they
were not interested?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I
just mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you
know, if was this at the same time or such. They just didn't seem very
interested in that at all.
Mr. WRIGHT. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and
finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored
man in the other window.
Representative FORD. A minute ago you indicated that you could see
the man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions,
I think you referred to the sun shining in that direction toward the
building. Was the sun bright, do you recall that at all?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. I didn't have any
sunglasses on at that time because I had broken them the week before,
and I hadn't gotten any new ones. The sun was shining in from what I
could tell he was standing where I seen him through the window on my
right. This would be the east window of the pair. It appeared as though
the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of
the building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western
pair, one of the pair. This sun was--that hit him about from the
shoulders down as far as I could see, that is why I was able to tell
the rifle was of the type or such that it was.
Representative FORD. As you faced the window, as you faced the
building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your
right shoulder?
Mr. ROWLAND. As I faced the building the sun was shining--well, I would
have been facing the building if the building were in this direction
more or less this way and the sun would have been shining from this
area.
Representative FORD. Over your left shoulder?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; forward.
Representative FORD. That is all.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the
window with the rifle for the FBI agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they have pictures with them at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. I have seen three pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, two of
them in the paper. They had a morning newspaper was all they had. It
wasn't a very good picture, and I couldn't tell. I didn't know, I
wasn't going to say because I didn't, I mean. I just couldn't identify
him. I wouldn't be--I had already resigned myself not to be given that
task, because I couldn't definitely say any one man was that man.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it,
that you resigned yourself to that task?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at
his face.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are
unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw
holding the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository
Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is true.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that you could identify the Negro gentleman
in window "A" whom you testified you saw?
Mr. ROWLAND. I would have to say perhaps. I can't say for sure.
Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you testified that you gave statements
to seven different pairs of FBI agents. Have you already testified
about three of those occasions, or, stated differently, start at the
beginning and tell us, as best you can recollect, what were those
occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had those
meetings with the seven different pairs of agents.
Mr. ROWLAND. The first statement I gave was in the sheriff's office on
that date.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there two FBI agents present?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think there were.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect their names?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. When was the second occasion?
Mr. ROWLAND. The Saturday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement given?
Mr. ROWLAND. That was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's
house.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identities of those FBI agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement you have identified as being
reproduced in Commission Exhibit 358?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, when was the third statement obtained?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was Sunday morning, the following day, November 25.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement obtained?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my place of employment at the Pizza Inn.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, Sunday after the assassination would have been the
24th.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right, I am sorry, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you certain of the day of the week, however?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am certain of that because I went to work at noon
on Sunday and they were there when I got to work, they were waiting on
me.
Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement which you described as having been
taken on a stenopad?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign that statement?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. This was in the presence of my wife because
she was there.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identity of those FBI agents?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When was the fourth statement taken?
Mr. ROWLAND. The fourth was Tuesday night of that week.
Mr. SPECTER. Of the following week?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement taken?