Representative FORD. Was this an open or a closed car?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was a sedan, the doors were closed.
Representative FORD. What was the next car you noticed?
Mr. ROWLAND. The next car was the President's car.
Representative FORD. Did you notice again or did you look again during
this period of time at the School Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down
Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife
remarked at Jackie's clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks
of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we
also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize Governor Connally and
his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that was.
Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by
a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that
time. My wife likes clothes.
Representative FORD. You never again, after the motorcade once came
into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. I did after the shots were fired.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished telling us all about the conversation
between you and your wife concerning this man?
Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. All right.
You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would
you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you
saw someone hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it that you observed someone
hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.
Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the double window there. Would you draw
the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can
what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND. It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I
didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER. At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging
out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor
where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; no one else on that floor.
Mr. SPECTER. You testified before that there were other windows where
you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit
356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows
were?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was either two or three people in this window.
Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. ROWLAND. Those pair of windows. I think this was all on that floor.
Here on this floor.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the second floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Circle the windows and mark it with a "C" if you will.
Mr. ROWLAND. I think it was this pair immediately over the door, and
this pair.
Mr. SPECTER. Mark one "C" and one "D," if you will.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. ROWLAND. Here I know there were two Negro women, I think.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating window "C." You say two Negro women?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And were those women each in one window, both in one
window or what?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were one in each window. Then at the window "D" there
was one, one window open.
Mr. SPECTER. Which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the west side, and this appeared to have two
heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the
others.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anyone else hanging out the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was someone on the third floor. I think it was--wait
a minute--yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that
were open. They were all open to the fullest extent they would open.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark those "E," "F" and "G," please.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any people in those windows marked "E,"
"F," and "G"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and this pair, "E," both windows were open, and there
appeared to be one man in the eastern window.
Mr. SPECTER. Which you have now marked with an arrow.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How about as to window marked "F"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Both windows were completely up, and there appeared to
be several people in that window, four or five, a number that I don't
remember, you know I couldn't see all of them.
Mr. SPECTER. How about window "G"?
Mr. ROWLAND. This again, both windows were open all of the way and I
think there was one person in each window.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other people either through any other
window or hanging out of any other window in the building?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to
my recollection.
There were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls
or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the door of the building.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. ROWLAND. And there was no one else in there, except I think there
was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you described everybody you have observed, with
respect to everybody hanging out the windows?
Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. SPECTER. Or anybody you could see through the windows?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. As to the window which you have marked "A", that double
pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open?
Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the eastern side was open and not all of the
way it would open.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one you have marked with an arrow?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How much of that window was open?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was open about that far.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating 2-1/2 feet?
Mr. ROWLAND. Two feet.
Mr. SPECTER. Two feet.
Mr. ROWLAND. Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open
3--two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the other of the windows in the double-set
marked "A," was that completely closed?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either
of those windows open?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were both completely open.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with any more particularity the people
you saw in the window which you have marked "B"?
Mr. ROWLAND. There was a white man hanging out either "G" or "B," I do
not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in these
windows that I saw----
Mr. SPECTER. When you said "these windows" you mean the first window
you marked with a black circle and a black arrow?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can tell us about the people
you saw in window "B"?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think to the best of my recollection there was either
two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B"
or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do
remember it was one of the windows on the corner.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if the other people in window "B" were
white or Negro?
Mr. ROWLAND. They were Negro.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any occasion to look back at window "A"
from the time you saw the man whom you described as a Negro gentleman
in that window until the President's procession passed by?