Will you mark with the letter "A" the point to which you had moved when
you described it as being at Commerce which you corrected to Elm and
Houston.
Mr. ROWLAND. It was this corner.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you move to the position you
have marked "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. About 10 after 12.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at position "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute.
Mr. SPECTER. To look at what?
Mr. ROWLAND. To look at the position itself. There was too much of a
crowd in that area. When the President would come by they would be
pushing or rushing in that area and it would be too crowded for us.
Mr. SPECTER. At that point you did what?
Mr. ROWLAND. Then we went back to where we were.
Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the
corner of Main and Houston.
Mr. SPECTER. Mark Main and Houston with the letter "B," if you would,
where you moved next.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. ROWLAND. Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was
quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original
position.
Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What time would you say you got back to your position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my
watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the Hertz time clock located?
Mr. ROWLAND. That was on top of the school depository building.
Mr. SPECTER. Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it.
I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe at any time the building which is
depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 348?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We were looking around it, my wife and I, amongst the
crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the
underpass itself, in that area, and the security precautions that were
being taken.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to show the witness the same
photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked Commission
Exhibit No. 356.
Mr. Rowland, I show you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 356 and
ask you if you can identify what that represents?
Mr. ROWLAND. That is Houston, Elm running in front of this building.
This is the school book depository building.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with that building prior to November 22,
1963?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have been in there on occasion.
Mr. SPECTER. You have been in the building?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, to purchase books.
Mr. SPECTER. When were you in the building most recently prior to
November 22, 1963?
Mr. ROWLAND. Within the first week of November. This was to buy a
physics notebook.
Mr. SPECTER. What part of the building were you in at that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. Just inside the door of the main lobby.
Mr. SPECTER. On the first floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor
other than the first floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. While you were standing on Houston Street in the various
positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time
to observe the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed there,
we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security
precautions that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was
there.
Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on
your return to position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was 12:15.
Mr. SPECTER. All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at
about that time?
Mr. ROWLAND. We were discussing, as I stated, the different security
precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming
and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially
in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked
momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before
that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less
security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth
floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not
hanging out the window.
He was standing and holding a rifle. This appeared to me to be a fairly
high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of
the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is.
You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that
maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is
a security agent.
We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in
windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we
brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about
it until after the event happened.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission
Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this
man?
Mr. ROWLAND. This was very odd. There were--this picture was not taken
immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several
windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where
both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more
persons hanging out the window.
Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the
first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched,
the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was
the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no
one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.
It was this pair of windows here at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. All right.
Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far each of those
windows were open?
Mr. ROWLAND. To the fullest extent that they could be opened.
Mr. SPECTER. What extent would that be?
Mr. ROWLAND. Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be
halfway of the entire length of the window.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted
here in Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In which of those double windows did you see the man and
rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was through the window to my right.
Mr. SPECTER. Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black
pencil please.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. SPECTER. How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?
Mr. ROWLAND. All of it.
Mr. SPECTER. You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip
of the end of the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. The barrel of the rifle?
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few
minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my
absence.
Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between where
you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just
described?
(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.)
Mr. ROWLAND. 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know
for sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you very good at judging distances of that sort?
Mr. ROWLAND. Fairly good.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience or practice at judging such
distances?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know,
elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you
can tell its distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best I can
recollect it was within 150 to 175 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity
than you already have?
Mr. ROWLAND. No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a
.30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?
Mr. ROWLAND. That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer
hunting. It is an import.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you own any rifles?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; my stepfather does.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer
with?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area?
Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one
of the most popular for deer hunting.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps
identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before?
Mr. ROWLAND. The best I could tell it was of that size.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range
which had telescopic sights?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it.
Mr. SPECTER. And did this rifle appear similar to the one your
stepfather owned?
Mr. ROWLAND. From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar
manufacture.
Mr. SPECTER. In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom
you observed?
Mr. ROWLAND. The way he was standing it would have been in a position
such as port arms in military terms.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand
with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder
and your right hand----
Mr. ROWLAND. Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being
lower on the trigger of the stock.
Mr. SPECTER. So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding
would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle.
Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. How long was the rifle held in that position?
Mr. ROWLAND. During the entire time that I saw him there.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him hold it in any other position?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest
position?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the
individual whom you saw?
Mr. ROWLAND. He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I
couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy,
say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he
was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was
slender.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us an estimate on his height?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what
height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his
width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing
things in perspective.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro or what?
Mr. ROWLAND. Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position
because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He
appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but
dark hair.
Mr. SPECTER. What race was he then?
Mr. ROWLAND. I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you able to observe any characteristics of his
hair?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; except that it was dark, probably black.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of
hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?
Mr. ROWLAND. It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I
know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut
from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he
was wearing?
Mr. ROWLAND. He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white
or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar.
I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular
T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to
be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that. I
didn't see but a small portion.
Mr. SPECTER. You say you only saw a small portion of what?
Mr. ROWLAND. Of his pants from his waist down.
Mr. SPECTER. Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the
top half?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was the bottom half.
Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the
window frame from that point down to the floor?
Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to
about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees?
Mr. ROWLAND. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the
window he was standing?
Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back.
I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.
Mr. SPECTER. How much of the rifle was separated from your line of
vision by the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. The entire rifle was in my view.
Mr. SPECTER. In the open part of the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view
where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?
Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.
Mr. SPECTER. Up to what point?
Mr. ROWLAND. Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again
in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.
Mr. SPECTER. So from the waist, some point between his knees and his
waist, you started to see him clear in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And from that point how far up his body were you able to
see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?
Mr. ROWLAND. To the top of his head. There was some space on top of
that where I could see the wall behind him.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the space between the top of
his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?
Mr. ROWLAND. Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is
something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on
my part.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you observed about his appearance
or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about?
Representative FORD. Was he facing toward you directly?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Representative FORD. In other words, did you get a full view of his
face and his chest and the front of him?
Mr. ROWLAND. He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window
and watching the crowd in particular.
Representative FORD. Excuse me, go ahead.
Mr. ROWLAND. That is all right.
Representative FORD. Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and
Main?
Mr. ROWLAND. No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general
vicinity of where I was.
Representative FORD. And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front
of the building that you have indicated?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Now, I can't--here again I wasn't close enough to
see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that
general area. It could have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a
little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, I don't
know.
Representative FORD. In what position did you say his hands were on the
rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND. One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle,
just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the
other end of the rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock.
Representative FORD. Was the rifle held above his waist?
Mr. ROWLAND. The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below
his waist.
Representative FORD. The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end?
Mr. ROWLAND. The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel
being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him.
Representative FORD. I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up.
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that
man?
Mr. ROWLAND. This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I
remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This
could be obscured because of the distance, I mean.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of
the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already
described?
Mr. ROWLAND. I would say about 140 to 150 pounds.
Representative FORD. When did you tell your wife you thought he was in
his thirties?
Mr. ROWLAND. Right after I noticed the man, I brought him to my wife's
attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we
looked at that, and when we both looked back she wanted to see also,
and he was gone from our vision.
Representative FORD. So she never saw him?
Mr. ROWLAND. My wife never saw him.
Representative FORD. Did you say at that time how old he was or how old
you thought he was?
Mr. ROWLAND. I think I remarked to my wife that he appeared in his
thirties, early thirties.
Mr. SPECTER. When, after you first observed him did you have a
conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND. Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him
there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front
of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the
details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the
time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to
me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the
position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in
the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this
was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this
man immediately after you saw him?
Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the quality or condition of her eyes?
Mr. ROWLAND. She has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses.
Mr. SPECTER. Was she wearing glasses at the time?
Mr. ROWLAND. No, she wasn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have
been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative
positions?
Mr. ROWLAND. Had he still been there she would have been able to
acknowledge the figure with no description.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you see him there in total point of time?
Mr. ROWLAND. It was all relatively brief, short time, 15 seconds, maybe
20. I was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of
the building, I noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for 15
to 20 seconds. This is all relatively very short length of time.