Mr. GREER. I took courses here in this country.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you a high school graduate, then?
Mr. GREER. Well, I have 2 years of high school.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you complete this educational background?
Mr. GREER. I have to go back now.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately.
Mr. GREER. About 1924 or 1925.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way what your activities
have been since that time, up until your joining the Secret Service,
please?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was born and raised on farmwork, a farmer. And
I done that until I came to this country in February 1930. I worked
for a period of time--I lived in Boston for a little while. I worked
one summer on the estate of Henry Cabot Lodge. I was a chauffeur for a
family in Brookline, Mass., for about a year. And then I went to New
York, Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. I lived there for 13 years as a chauffeur for a
private family in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. Then I went in the Navy in November
1942. I got discharged on September 18, 1945.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your principal duties while in the Navy?
Mr. GREER. I was seaman first class. I did almost 2 years at
Bainbridge, Md., with the seaman guard there. And then I was assigned
to the presidential yacht in May 1944, until I was discharged in
September. But most of my duty was at the White House in that period,
that year.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long after discharge from the Navy was it before
you joined the U.S. Secret Service?
Mr. GREER. Well, I got out of the Navy September 18 and October 1 I
went with the Secret Service--a matter of 14 or 15 days.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe your duties since joining the Secret Service,
please.
Mr. GREER. Since joining the Secret Service I was assigned to the
uniform force at first with the Secret Service at the Bureau of
Engraving and Printing. For about 2 years I was with the physical
education part of it. We had a gymnasium there. I was an instructor
there part-time--part of the time. And then I was assigned for about 2
years to pick up the food of the President at the White House. I had
that duty for about 2 years. And then I went back to the Treasury for
a short period, a few months. And then I was reassigned to the White
House as an agent in November--1950 I went, there. I was made a full
agent that following August 1951. I was there as a special officer from
November to August 1951.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you been assigned to the White House staff since
that time?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I have been there ever since.
Mr. SPECTER. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of
your duty has involved driving the President's car?
Mr. GREER. Well, I drove the followup car for quite a long time--you
know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals
during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was
also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left
Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I
have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since
election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned
to him, to drive him.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you get to Dallas yourself back on November 22,
1963?
Mr. GREER. I flew--I was on a plane with the President all during the
trip. And I flew from Fort Worth to Dallas that morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I hand you documents which have been marked
Commission Exhibits 344, 345, and 346. I ask you if you can identify
those, starting with 344, what that depicts.
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I can identify this automobile very well. That is
the 1961 Lincoln, especially built for the President. And this is a
rear view of that same automobile. This is the interior of that Lincoln
Continental. Yes, sir, everything is very positive that I can identify.
Mr. SPECTER. How did that automobile--how was that automobile
transported to Texas?
Mr. GREER. It was flown there in a C-130.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where it was flown to?
Mr. GREER. Well, it was flown--let's see, I forget the day before where
our first stop was on that trip right now. I would have to go back into
my papers. But we used I believe more than one stop. I am trying to
think where we used it before we went to Dallas. It could have been at
Houston. I am not too sure whether we used it at Houston the day before
or not. I would have to go back in my records.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible the first time you used the automobile on
that Texas trip was at Dallas?
Mr. GREER. Right now it is so long ago, I have almost forgotten whether
we did use it at Houston prior to that or not. I am not too sure where
the first stop was. We sometimes use it more than one stop.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any covering which can be put on the President's
automobile?
Mr. GREER. There is--when we put the plastic--I put the plastic on it,
we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the
plastic.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you please describe in a general way the plastic
covering you just referred to.
Mr. GREER. The plastic covering is made in six pieces. Three of
them--there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that
we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. Then there is a
front--one piece that goes across the front seat after that. Then the
last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet
together in the center--they come together in the center. That makes
the six pieces that it comes down in. We have to break it down in the
six pieces to store it in the trunk. It is kept in the trunk of the car
whenever we are not using it.
Mr. SPECTER. Are the three pieces that you described as being joined
together for the rear portion disassembled at all times?
Mr. GREER. We disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir.
But we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like
that--we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it
in place, which covers the back seat of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. And after you put the three pieces together for the back
portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the
balance of the car?
Mr. GREER. Three; three more pieces.
Mr. SPECTER. And how are they secured to the automobile itself?
Mr. GREER. They are secured with--I don't know what you would call
it--these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. We have
them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very
fast.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this cover transparent? Can it be seen through?
Mr. GREER. The plastic; yes. You can see through it.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the plastic made of, if you know?
Mr. GREER. Well, it is a type of plastic. I just don't know who
manufactures it. But it is clear plastic.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof or bullet resistant?
Mr. GREER. No, sir. It is weather--the idea back of it was for
inclement weather, that the President could be seen if the weather was
too bad to have him outside. That is what we had in mind originally
with it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any personal knowledge of any efforts made to
obtain a bulletproof or bullet-resistant transparent top?
Mr. GREER. Now, or before that?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, start beforehand.
Mr. GREER. No; I never had anything to do with that at all. I never had
anything to do with anything being made for that.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what efforts have been made subsequent to
the assassination of President Kennedy to obtain such a bulletproof
transparent top?
Mr. GREER. Only just hearing conversation; nothing definite; no, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time, to the best of your recollection,
did President Kennedy arrive in Dallas on November 22?
Mr. GREER. I would have to--I would not tell you right now. I would
have to go back and look into my--you probably have it there. I have it
also on my report.
Mr. SPECTER. If you don't recall the exact time, just give us your best
estimate.
Mr. GREER. Approximately 11:35. I am guessing.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was his mode of transportation into Dallas?
Mr. GREER. He flew on an Air Force plane.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did he fly from?
Mr. GREER. From Fort Worth to Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us in a general way what he did upon arrival
in Dallas at Love Field?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. He got off the plane. He walked along the fence
along there, and shook hands with a great many people. There was a
large crowd there. He and Mrs. Kennedy both walked along and shook
hands with many people.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how long after arrival at Love Field
did he get into his automobile?
Mr. GREER. I would guess probably, say, approximately maybe 10 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions like that day as he got
into his automobile?
Mr. GREER. The weather was very nice that day. It was a beautiful day
in Dallas, very fine day, warm, fairly warm, nice day.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the car open?
Mr. GREER. The car was open; no top.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many automobiles were there in that
motorcade?
Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have--couldn't tell you right now how many. There
was quite a few cars.
Mr. SPECTER. Who were the occupants of the President's car?
Mr. GREER. On the back seat, on the right rear seat, the President,
Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear seat, Governor Connally was on the right
jump seat, and Mrs. Connally was on the left jump seat. Mr. Kellerman
was riding on the right front, and I was driving.
Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did you travel as you proceeded at various
points from Love Field, say, down into the downtown area of Dallas?
Mr. GREER. Well, we traveled at various speeds, according to the amount
of people, the crowd. If it was--if we came to a large crowd, we would
have to slow down. I would say, to probably 10 to 15 miles an hour.
Then we would pick it up possibly 25 or somewhere around--25 maybe to
30, where there was few people.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which you drove from the
time you left Love Field until the time you got to downtown Dallas?
Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have the slightest idea now, after this length of
time. I could not say how much it would be.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us your best estimate on the minimum speed
from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at
downtown Dallas?
Mr. GREER. The minimum speed traveling at all would probably be 10 to
15 miles an hour.
Mr. SPECTER. And what sort of crowds were along the way?
Mr. GREER. There was large crowds--at some places there was quite large
crowds.
Mr. SPECTER. Did anything unusual occur en route from Love Field to the
downtown area of Dallas?
Mr. GREER. Well, I think--it may have been--we may have stopped one
time where he got out--didn't get out, but he stopped and spoke to some
young people, I believe, en route. I think there may have been a group
of people there.
Mr. SPECTER. I hand you a photograph which has already been marked
Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if at this time you are able to
identify what that photograph depicts.
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. That is the photograph of the route that we
traveled in Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348
and ask you if you can identify what that picture represents.
Mr. GREER. With pictures that I have seen since then, I would recognize
that as the Book Depository Building in Dallas--the street in front of
it.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar with the name of this street, which has
since been marked by Mr. Kellerman, who identified this exhibit and
marked the name of the street on it?
Mr. GREER. No, I wasn't at the time, but I know now that it is supposed
to be Main Street.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you know in what general direction Main Street
proceeds?
Mr. GREER. I am not too sure. No; I wouldn't really know. I didn't have
enough time.
Mr. SPECTER. And are you familiar with the street which intersects with
Main----
Mr. GREER. Houston Street.
Mr. SPECTER. And what street did you turn off of from Houston?
Mr. GREER. Houston to Elm Street.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were proceeding down Main Street, which I will
add is in a generally westerly direction, what is your best estimate of
your speed as you turned the corner right onto Houston Street?
Mr. GREER. I would estimate the speed was somewhere between 12 to 15
miles per hour, coming through there.
Mr. SPECTER. And as you made that right-hand turn onto Houston Street,
what was the composition of the crowds along the way, if any?
Mr. GREER. On Main Street there were very, very large crowds. They were
almost close up against the automobile. Sometimes the motorcycles on
the sides could not even get through. They were real close to us. And
very large crowds. And when we got around on Houston Street, the crowds
thinned out quite a lot. My recollection here is that there wasn't too
many people on Elm Street--a few scattered people at that point.
Mr. SPECTER. And your finger indicated there the position near the
Texas School Depository Building?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have described motorcycles. How many were present
with the President's automobile, if any?
Mr. GREER. I could not tell the exact amount of motorcycles that were
escorting us at that time. We usually do have them on the two front
fenders and two rear fenders, and some probably preceding that, and
some along the motorcade behind us. I could not tell you exactly how
many there probably would be.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect that there were some on this occasion,
however?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were motorcycles.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the
motorcade?
Mr. GREER. No; I don't know how many police cars were ahead of us. I
knew that the lead car was right directly ahead of me, with one of our
agents, or maybe two, and the chief of police in that car. But how many
police cars prior to that, I do not know how many there were at the
time in front of us.
Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was that police car as you turned off
of Main Street onto Houston?
Mr. GREER. I usually allow 4 or 5 car lengths, if possible, between the
car and myself, in case that there is any reason to speed up quick. I
like to leave enough room that I can get out of there. I don't like to
get too tight to the lead car when possible--unless the crowds are so
big that I have to get in or they would close in on me--I have to get
in closer.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the first car immediately
behind yours was?
Mr. GREER. The car behind me was only some few feet, because with our
training and all, we stay very, very close to the President's car.
Sometimes we are bumper to bumper. And the car never is much more than
10 to 12 feet away from the President's car, at slow speeds.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the
operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this
close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up
automobile?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are
used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's
thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work
so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give
each other enough ample time to stop or move in close.
Mr. SPECTER. After turning off Main onto Houston, did you have any
opportunity to take a look at the building which you have since
identified as the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had not any chance to look much at that building
at all. When I made the turn into Elm Street, I was watching the
overpass expressway--the overpass, or what was ahead of me. I always
look at any--where I go underneath anything, I always watch above, so
if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go over the
top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman
or something like that. We try to avoid going under them.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you turned off of Houston onto Elm, did you make
a right-hand or a left-hand turn?
Mr. GREER. I made a right-hand turn off of Main onto Houston.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you turned from Houston onto Elm, was that a
right-hand or a left-hand turn?
Mr. GREER. That was a left-hand turn.
Mr. SPECTER. And as you turned onto Elm Street, how far, to the best of
your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which
you have just described?
Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it
was. It wasn't too far. I just could not give you the distance.
Mr. SPECTER. At that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe
what was present, if anything, on that overpass?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was making sure that I could not see anyone that
might be standing there, and I didn't see anything that I was afraid of
on the overpass.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anything at all on the overpass?
Mr. GREER. Not that I can now remember.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the speed at which you
were traveling as you turned left off of Houston onto Elm?
Mr. GREER. My best recollection would be between 12 and 15 miles per
hour.
Mr. SPECTER. And how far were you at that time behind the police car
which was in front of you?
Mr. GREER. Probably 50 feet maybe--approximately. I will say
approximately 50 feet.
Mr. SPECTER. As you turned onto Elm, did you have any opportunity to
observe how far behind you the President's follow-up car was?
Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was not looking in my mirror; I could not say how
far it was behind me at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd as you made the turn
onto Elm Street, if you recall?
Mr. GREER. To the best of my memory, the crowd had thinned out a great
deal, and there was not too many people in front of that building.
Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?
Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.
Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling?
Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us the contour of the street at
that point--whether it was level, hilly, or what.
Mr. GREER. It was starting to go down--gradually going down toward this
underpass. It was a down grade.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were
proceeding down Elm Street at that time?
Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise
that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And
I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that
it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard
this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it
again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like
he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I
tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to
me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots
or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see
anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting
away.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just
described that you heard?
Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot
remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway
that I heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of
having heard three shots at that time?
Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I
looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something
wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned
around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one,
right immediately after.
Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate,
how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as
being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the
second noise?
Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three
or four seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to
estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the
time of the third noise?
Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind
the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were
between the two. I couldn't really say.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second
report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was
similar to a motorcycle backfire?
Mr. GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the
first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether
I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not,
I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was
something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I
haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise.
Mr. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all
sounded practically the same to me.
Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over
your shoulder.
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over?
Mr. GREER. Right shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to
the right at that time?
Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see,
I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a
quick glance and back again.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the
same?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. As the time?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the
right.
Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than
my head around. I had vision real quick of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught
him out of the corner of your eye?
Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs.
Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.
Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you
were able to observe him?
Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he
hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I
am now.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how?
Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be
to his left or to his side.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some
other way?
Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I
glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw
him.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you
glanced to the rear?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President. I didn't
look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.
Mr. SPECTER. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect
whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or
after that second shot?
Mr. GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit,
you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost
that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him
start to fall.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or
after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?
Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously.
Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the
time----
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the
same time or after the third shot?
Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back
from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a
matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the
time of the first, second, or third shots?
Mr. GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per
hour.
Mr. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred?
Mr. GREER. At the time the shots occurred.
Mr. SPECTER. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time
of the first shot?
Mr. GREER. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part
of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I
don't really know.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of
the second shot?
Mr. GREER. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know
what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking
his way.
Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you
observe anything on the overpass?
Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the
overpass?
Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up
there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of
the third shot?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say what he was doing.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile
and any of the other automobiles?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who made that radio communication?
Mr. GREER. Kellerman.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell us as precisely as you can when he made that radio
communication.
Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the
radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest
hospital fast."
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he said anything else at that time?
Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I
remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the
cars but I don't remember what he had said to them.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a
sentence?
Mr. GREER. He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30,"
and we were in the underpass at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, would you on Commission's Exhibit 347, mark
with an "A" as best you can indicate the position of the President's
automobile at the time of the first shot?
Mr. GREER. Do you want me to mark it on this exhibit?
Mr. SPECTER. Right there, that is right, that red pencil with an "A," a
small "A."
Mr. GREER. This is the center, I would say [indicating].
Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark your best estimate as to the position of the
automobile at the time of the second shot with the letter "B"?
Mr. GREER. I would have to guess how far I had traveled at that time. I
really wouldn't know. It was probably a little farther, only guessing
how far I would go. I am guessing as to the distance between them.
Maybe farther but I am only guessing to say at that. I wouldn't have
any definite reason.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you make that "B" a little plainer, if you can?
Mr. GREER. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us the best estimate in feet as to the
distance you traveled from the time of the first shot to the time of
the second shot?
Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't believe I could. Anything I would say would
be guessing.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give us a meaningful mark on the
overhead photograph as to the position of your car at the time of the
third shot?
Mr. GREER. From this overhead. I probably was where this mark is here.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark it?
Mr. GREER. I will put it alongside.