Mr. KELLERMAN. No information.
Representative FORD. In other words, PRS never turned over to you
any information about any dangerous individuals in any one of these
communities on this trip.
Mr. KELLERMAN. That's right.
Representative FORD. Is this unusual?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. But let me reserve the right to recheck that
question again; may I?
Representative FORD. Absolutely. All we want in this case, as in any
other, are whatever the facts are to the best of records that are
available.
Mr. KELLERMAN. All right.
Representative FORD. In the report from the Secret Service it says,
and I quote, "Because of the incidents on the occasion of the visit of
Ambassador Stevenson to Dallas earlier in the fall, special attention
was given to extremist groups known to be active in Dallas. Appendix A
describes the action taken in Dallas in more detail." Were you familiar
with that part of the Secret Service activity prior to your departure
for Texas?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I have knowledge of that; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. How much knowledge?
Mr. KELLERMAN. But not enough to be written up, that I recall, sir.
Representative FORD. Well, could you describe for the Commission what
knowledge you did have in this regard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The only knowledge I can describe to you, sir, is the
fact that we were aware of what this Ambassador went through down
there. However, we had no information that such an incident would
happen to President Kennedy on his trip into that State.
Representative FORD. But I gather from this report, which is the
official report of the Treasury Department, that somebody knew of these
previous incidents, and was thereby alerted to the possibility of--the
potential of one, because the report says, "Special attention is given
to extremist groups known to be in Dallas." Now, could you tell us what
special attention was given?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. Outside of the fact that everybody was alerted to
this previous incident.
Representative FORD. PRS, Protective Research Section, didn't tell
you, as the person in charge, of any individuals or of any groups that
wanted special attention? I am using "special attention" as in the
report.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right as of this minute, the only knowledge that I have
of any incident that could happen was in San Antonio, when I believe we
had information of some pickets. Now, those pickets showed up outside
of--he made a speech at that space hospital. Well, anyway, in view of
that, I cannot reach the name right now--these pickets were out at,
let's say, the main gate to the grounds, and just stayed right there
with their placards.
Representative FORD. Also on the report it says, "In accordance with
the usual practice, the local FBI office informed the local Secret
Service office of any information which affected the President's visit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. They did. That is the normal practice.
Representative FORD. That was the normal procedure?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It is always the normal procedure; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Now, whom would they have informed in this case in
Dallas?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Their report would have come to Washington, and relayed
to our Protective Research Section.
Representative FORD. And the FBI in this instance gave you what
information, if any, that you should relay back to the people----
Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall right now, sir, are those
pickets in San Antonio.
Representative FORD. Well, may I say if on your return to your office
you find any information on this particular point, I think it would be
very helpful for the record, and it should be included in the record.
Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. I surely will.
Representative FORD. The report also says, "On October 30, 1963, the
local FBI office gave the local Secret Service officer the name of a
rightwing individual in the Dallas area. An investigation was made.
On November 21 and 22 the local FBI office referred two pieces of
information to the local Dallas office of the Secret Service." Were you
familiar with that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Representative FORD. Who would, under your normal procedures, have been
familiar with that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the same organization, Protective Research
Section.
Representative FORD. But they did not give you any information of this.
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Representative FORD. Is this unusual or different?
Mr. KELLERMAN. If they evaluated this information, there would have to
be a degree of seriousness.
Representative FORD. But, as far as you can best recollect at this
point, you were never so informed.
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, indeed.
Representative FORD. The report does go on to say, and I quote, "One
involved scurrilous literature already in the hands of the Secret
Service, Exhibit 4. The second involved possible picket trouble which
the local police were aware of." That is the picket trouble you were
talking about?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Apparently so.
Representative FORD. The report also says on page 8, "Special Agent
Lawson, SAIC Sorrel, and Special Agent Howlett met with Dallas
law-enforcement officials. Special Agent Howlett also met with an
informant. They followed up all leads and tips and checked scurrilous
literature, Exhibit 4." Did you have any information personally about
this activity by Lawson, Sorrel, and Howlett?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Was it their responsibility to do it, to undertake
that kind of an operation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Everybody but Lawson. These other two gentlemen you are
speaking of are field agents out of Dallas. Yes; they would investigate
the seriousness of this thing, through the information furnished by
the FBI. And, depending on the degree now, this would be furnished our
Protective Research Section here in Washington.
Representative FORD. Now, did Lawson or anybody else communicate to you
what was going on in this regard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no. I do not think Mr. Lawson got in this
investigative part at all. It would not be any part of his duties.
Representative FORD. I am only reading from the report.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. And the report goes on to say, "Their
investigations did not bring to light the name or the individual Lee H.
Oswald, and he or his name was not known to them or any other Secret
Service agent in Dallas or elsewhere prior to this shooting of the
President." Would that be the same as far as you are concerned?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is very true.
Representative FORD. You did not know of Lee H. Oswald?
Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever.
Representative FORD. Was it surprising to you that when the President
was going to a city as large as Dallas, that there were no names turned
over to you, either by your Protective Research Section or by any other
Federal agents--individuals or an individual dangerous to the President?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I recall, to give you an answer, Congressman, that it
did seem strange that here we are hitting five cities in one State
and--and from the apparent trouble Ambassador Stevenson had down there
one evening, we certainly should have had some information on somebody.
Representative FORD. Hypothetically, if you go to other large
metropolitan areas, do you normally get names from various agencies,
including PRS, warning you of an individual or groups that might cause
trouble?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Again I say that our PRS would recheck their files,
from all the cities--from all the cases that they have in that city,
and furnished us information, whether a report or photographwise.
They in turn would--and I believe I am correct on this--they in turn
notify the Bureau of this visit, or may have people check through their
files. They can doublecheck this stuff. I don't recall any information
whatsoever, except that picket thing.
Representative FORD. It is surprising to me, as well, and I gather it
was certainly, on reflection, surprising to you----
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it is.
Representative FORD. Was this in itself any warning to you that there
might be some breakdown in the system?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Gee--no; I never cherished that thought, sir.
Representative FORD. You assumed that the proper liaison between
various agencies was taking place, and your PRS was operating
effectively?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much; yes indeed. Now, if I am wrong, when
I check these two questions back here, I will let you know.
Mr. SPECTER. Congressman Ford, on this line, perhaps I should say that
organizationally we are divided into phases where this is a separate
phase in terms of protective devices. So, for the prepared part of what
the staff has set up, we have by design omitted that portion here, with
later witnesses to go into all these questions in some detail for the
Commission.
Representative FORD. I was trying to get from Mr. Kellerman--from his
testimony he was indicating that he was the person who from on or about
November 17 had the responsibility. And I was trying to trace precisely
how this responsibility was carried through, up to the point where you
started out this morning. Do I understand, then, that at some later
point in the Commission hearings with other witnesses we will go back
into the process of how these decisions are made, as far as PRS is
concerned?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. There will be detailed witnesses on the workings
of PRS, and how they functioned with respect to this trip, and what
information the FBI had or the State Department had about Lee Harvey
Oswald, and whatever coordination, if any, was present. Our thought was
that that would be handled separately, organizationally. Certainly, to
some extent it is impossible to draw sharp lines of distinction here.
But that is the way the staff has prepared the distinctions--with Mr.
Kellerman going more specifically, as the other witnesses of today, on
the sequence of events themselves at the assassination.
Representative FORD. But, as far as the procedures within PRS and the
relationship between the Secret Service, the FBI, and other Federal
agencies, that will come up later on in other witnesses who are more
familiar with the precise workings.
Mr. SPECTER. Exactly; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Who actually had the responsibility to check the
route from the airport to the Trade Mart? I mean to check the route,
lay out whatever security precautions should be taken from the outset
until the day of the President's visit?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was coordinated, Mr. Congressman, between Mr.
Lawson and members of the Dallas Police Department, sir.
Representative FORD. You did not arrive in Dallas until the morning of
the assassination?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is correct, sir.
Representative FORD. As you were in the car, in the right front seat,
and the car turned from Main Street right into Houston, you had for a
relatively short period of time an opportunity to look at the Texas
School Depository Building. Did you look at it; did you notice anything
about it? What was your reaction, if any, to that particular building?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing the name of the building--let me say this:
When you are driving down this street, regardless of Houston or which,
and you have buildings on either side of you, you are going to scan
your eyes up and down this building.
Representative FORD. Did this building create, as you turned into
Houston Street, any particular problem that would have alerted you one
way or another?
Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. It did not produce a thing.
Representative FORD. Your eyes scanned the area. Did they scan
sufficiently to identify anything, to be alerted by anything in any
window, on the roof, or anyplace else?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else indicate to you at
any time that the Book Depository Building was a problem?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Representative FORD. I mean beforehand.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Never mentioned it.
Representative FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else discuss with you
any particular danger involved in the overpass, the triple overpass?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Did you have minute knowledge as to the route in
Dallas, or was that left up to Lawson in his judgment?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Left up to Lawson and the people in Texas.
Representative FORD. But he did tell you when you arrived in Dallas;
what, again?
Mr. KELLERMAN. And the people in Texas, the police department.
Representative FORD. What did he tell you? When you arrived in Dallas
that morning, he told you something.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. He said, "This is your reception committee,
which is at the bottom of the ramp leading out." I said, "Are we all
right in Dallas here all the way for today?" And he said, "Yes; this
will be fine." I said, "All right; let's get on with it."
Representative FORD. When were you first interviewed by anyone
regarding the directions from which the shots came?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall ever being interviewed.
Representative FORD. Did you ever make a statement for submission to
the Commission or to your supervisors?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Just this statement that I submitted here.
Representative FORD. Which is included in the Secret Service report.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Did you have anything to do with setting up the
method of trying to apprehend the alleged assassin? Was that outside or
within your jurisdiction?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Outside, sir.
Representative FORD. You did nothing in that regard.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing.
Representative FORD. I believe that is all. I have to go back to a very
important committee meeting, Mr. Chairman. I may be able to get back
later, Mr. Chief Justice.
The CHAIRMAN. I will be here the rest of the afternoon, so there will
be no necessity of your coming back if you are tied up. Thank you very
much for presiding all day.
Mr. Specter, have you some more questioning?
Mr. SPECTER. I have just one or two other questions.
Mr. Kellerman, you referred to a single statement which you said you
had made. In the report of the U.S. Secret Service on the assassination
of President Kennedy, on Exhibit 12, statement 11--we have the first
statement which you made, which is four pages, and that is the one to
which you referred, to refresh your recollection earlier today, and I
show you what appears to be a second very brief report which you made 1
day later under date of November 30, 1963, with your name and initials,
and ask you if you made this one, also.
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. You referred to you and Mr. Boring being the
two assistant special agents in charge. Is that status the same at the
present time, or are there now three assistant special agents in charge?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There are three. Mr. Rufus Youngblood is the third one.
Mr. SPECTER. Has that slight shift been made since the time of the
assassination.
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are my only additional questions,
sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions, or do you
think of any other avenue that we should explore here?
Mr. CRAIG. No, sir; thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. As the interrogation
has progressed, I have been handing notes to counsel and he has been
very kind in asking those questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, can you think of anything?
Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.
Mr. SMITH. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. CRAIG. Mr. Kellerman, is there any special agent in charge of the
protection of the person next in line in succession, to your knowledge?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I think Mr. Rowley would like to man that. I think they
have had a little difficulty to find a man.
Mr. CRAIG. There is no such person now?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, they have made numerous attempts with the people,
and so far they have got a negative reply.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Kellerman, thank you very much, sir, for your
attendance and for your testimony.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Thank you, sir.
(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)
The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. We will call Mr. Greer.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Greer, how do you, sir.
Mr. Greer, will you raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth before this Commission, so help you God?
Mr. GREER. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please.