The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.
Representative FORD. The Commission will come to order.
Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, thank you. Mr. Kellerman, immediately before the
luncheon recess, Senator Cooper had asked some questions relating to
the presence of anyone on the triple overpass which was in front of
the President's car. Did you have any occasion, immediately before
or immediately after the shooting, to look for anyone on the triple
overpass or in that vicinity?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you in a position to state, then, whether there was or
was not someone on the triple overpass?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am in no position to state that.
Mr. SPECTER. At the time of the shooting, did you observe any bullets
ricochet off of the windshield or off of any other part of the
automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. If any of the bullets ricocheted off the windshield
or front part of the car, this would have been matter that was blown
over mine and the driver's head from, I would say, the explosion of
President Kennedy's head.
Mr. SPECTER. But aside from the portions of President Kennedy's head
which you have already testified about, you observed nothing detectable
as being bullet fragments or bullets?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Ricocheting off any part of the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car
at rest after the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a priest at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there were two.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time were they present at the
hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When we brought President Kennedy into the emergency
room, the request for a priest was made immediately by one of the
members of the staff. I do not recall who called for one. However, in
the interim, a second call was sent out. Consequently, two showed; not
at the same time, but one after the other.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were they at the hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Just a matter of a couple of minutes of time.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where they went upon arrival at the
hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. They went right in the emergency room with the
President.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the emergency room at the time they were there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you know what services, if any, they performed
while they were there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conversations with either of them while
they were en route, either coming or going?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the state of readiness of Parkland
Hospital at your arrival, how long after you got there were stretcher
bearers at the front door?
Mr. KELLERMAN. To the best of my knowledge, there were no stretcher
bearers at the car--none.
Mr. SPECTER. At your arrival?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did some come shortly after you arrived?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, what sequence did follow with respect to the arrival
of the stretchers?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When we arrived at the hospital, I had called to the
agents to go inside and get two stretchers on wheels. Between those
people and police officers who also entered the emergency room, they
brought the stretchers out. I did not at any time see a man in a white
uniform outside, indicating a medical person.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first see the first indication of a doctor?
Mr. KELLERMAN. When we got in the emergency room itself proper.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you know which doctor that was?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name or sight; no, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors did you see at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The room was full.
Mr. SPECTER. Who were the individuals who brought the stretchers on
wheels, if you know?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Agents who were in the followup car, police officers who
were ahead of us on motorcycles.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted
when you testified this morning?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption
on time; I think I can pin it pretty well.
Mr. SPECTER. Give us your best estimate on that, please.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews
Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us
to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of
carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes
there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would
judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately
over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the
morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There
wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30,
they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital
at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So
they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand
that they worked on the autopsy angle 4-1/2, 5 hours.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when the funeral director's personnel
were preparing the body?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I was; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And about what time, then, did they complete their work?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They were all through at 3:30.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do immediately after they completed their
work?
Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Our communication between the Kennedy family
and staff, who were on another floor in the hospital, was in this
regard. We had telephone communication whereby we would tell them if
the body is ready to be taken out of the morgue and into the ambulance.
And they would hit the elevator and come right out the same way. So the
5 minutes it took to load the people in, we left the hospital morgue
part at least at 3:50, and, as I say, we were off at 3:56, driving to
the White House.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you go directly to the White House?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your tour of duty for that day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time you were present at the
autopsy, was there any conversation of any sort concerning the
possibility of a point of entry from the front of the President's body?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. You have testified about the impression you had as to the
source of the first shot, which sounded to you like a firecracker. Did
you have any impression as to the source of the other shots, which you
described as being a flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. If you will excuse me just a minute. I was trying to
elaborate on the last question.
Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me. Go ahead.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Just for the record, I wish to have this down. While the
President is in the morgue, he is lying flat. And with the part of the
skull removed, and the hole in the throat, nobody was aware until they
lifted him up that there was a hole in his shoulder. That was the first
concrete evidence that they knew that the man was hit in the back first.
Mr. SPECTER. When did they lift him up and first observe the hole in
the shoulder?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They had been working on him for quite some time,
Mr. Specter--through the photos and other things they do through an
autopsy. And I believe it was this Colonel Finck who raised him and
there was a clean hole.
Mr. SPECTER. What was said, if anything, by those present at the
autopsy concerning the wound in the throat?
Mr. KELLERMAN. To go back just a little further, the reason for the
hole in the throat, the tracheotomy; I am thinking they were of the
opinion that when the--when he was shot in the head, and they had found
this piece remaining above the eye underneath; I am sure there was some
concern as to where the outlet was, and whether they considered--this
is all an assumption now; whether they considered this--that there was
a hole here in the throat prior to the tracheotomy, I don't know. But
to complete the examination, they lifted him up by the shoulders, and
there was this hole. Now, I think you asked me a question. Could you
repeat it, please?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's be sure that we have your final answer on the
question of any conversation at all about a point of entry in the front
part of his body, in his throat, or any place else.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe, Mr. Specter, that it was ever concluded
that there was an entry in the front.
Mr. SPECTER. Then that completes the conversations at the autopsy?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. On any of the subjects I have asked you about?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. The question which I had then started to ask you was
whether you had any impression at the time of the second and third
shots, which you described as a flurry of shots, as to the point of
origin or source of those shots.
Mr. KELLERMAN. The only answer I can give to that is that they would
have to come from the rear.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, is that the impression or reaction you had at the
time of the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever, since the time of the assassination to this
date, had any contrary impression, reaction, or view that the shots
came from the front of the President?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Kellerman, with respect to the immediate reaction
by you to the emergency situation, did you consider at any time leaving
your seat, on the right front of the President's automobile, to go into
the rear portion, where the President sat?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for--or what was the basis for your
conclusion on that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. After I had heard President Kennedy's voice say, "My
God, I am hit," I viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. My
decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical
treatment. And during the few seconds that I instructed the driver to
get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in
the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that
we are hit. I then turn around, and I had two people injured. Not only
was the President down in his seat; the Governor was down in his seat.
My presence back there was gone. On top of that, I had Mr. Hill lying
across that trunk.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean when you say, sir, that your presence
back there was gone?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They were comfortable, if there is a comfort in this.
Mr. Hill was taking care of Mrs. Kennedy. Mrs. Connally was over the
Governor; there was no motion. The next thing was a doctor, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you consider presenting a further shield for the
President at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the metallic handhold which you described early in
your testimony as being about 15 inches off the top of the seat and
going all the way across the width of the car, did that metal structure
present any substantial impediment to your moving from the front seat
to the rear seat of the automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, I think it would have been a small
obstacle. However, let me say this: If I thought in my own mind that
I was needed back there, there wouldn't have been an obstacle strong
enough to hold me.
Mr. SPECTER. How about the presence of Governor Connally in the jump
seat? Would the presence of Governor Connally or any passenger in the
jump seat provide a substantial obstacle to your moving from your seat
to shield the President's body?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at all. It wouldn't have made any difference, sir.
Why? Because my job is to protect the President, sir, regardless of the
obstacles.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Greer at any time use the radio in your car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did the President's automobile at any time
slow down after the first shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not that I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, that completes our questions, sir.
Representative FORD. As you turned from Houston onto Elm, you were then
facing the triple overpass?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You were looking forward at the time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. You were not looking to the side particularly, or
back at all?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Don't let me change your thought, Mr. Congressman. But
as we turned left on Elm, there is also another curve before you get to
this overpass.
Representative FORD. A rather slight curve to the right?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much. I still knew there was an overpass.
Representative FORD. But your concentration was ahead?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Ahead.
Representative FORD. Not to the side or to the rear?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not to the rear especially; that is true. Let me
explain a little more. When you are riding in this automobile, which
is with him, and on your right side, naturally you are observing more
on the right. It is obvious. However, you still have time periodically
to glance over to the left for viewing anything that might be of a
danger--whether it is people or any other object.
Representative FORD. There is no way you would know from personal
observation in what direction the President was looking at the time he
was hit by the first shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I would not.
Representative FORD. Could you outline for us here the process by which
you were put in charge of this particular operation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. Can you outline for us the procedure that is
followed in such cases?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed. As I said earlier, we have three
people, for a better word, in charge of the White House detail. Mr.
Behn--Gerald Behn--is the special agent in charge. There are two
assistants, Floyd Boring and myself. On all trips this was a divided
matter. And this one was my trip. Not that I picked it or anything.
It was my trip that Mr. Behn said, "You will make this one with the
President." The other two people would have other duties to do. And
this is how it fell on to me for that day, sir.
Representative FORD. Once this assignment is made by Mr. Behn, what
happens after that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. In regard to who, sir?
Representative FORD. To your responsibilities.
Mr. KELLERMAN. The overall.
Representative FORD. In other words, from that assignment by Mr. Behn,
you take charge; you execute; you make assignments and so forth?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Only one thing. I am not going to say that I don't make
assignments. Mr. Congressman, these people all work in a team form. We
have three shifts. They work together for a long time, and to say this,
that they knew each other's footprints, is probably an overstatement.
But they know each other's methods. Let me go back just one step
further. I want to give it clear to you.
Let's say the four or five stops that we had in Texas on this visit--we
had one overnight in Fort Worth. All right. Each time, each stop that
we make, the individual that we had sent out ahead to set up and
coordinate the program with the people in that area, whether it is
security or otherwise, through communications for the days he is away,
he keeps us abreast of what is going on, who to expect, and so forth.
And, again, I should say that in the morning of the 22d in Fort Worth,
this lad called me--Mr. Lawson--asked about the top, whether it should
remain on or off, which decision was reached from Mr. O'Donnell. I then
asked him--I said, "Are we going to be all right in Dallas?" He said,
"Oh, yes; it is a good program." Fine. If and when we ever arrived at
that spot, I would ask this man, is there anything unusual when we get
here. That is a general question that I have given these people all the
time.
Representative FORD. In other words, once the assignment has been made
that you handle this trip, and in this case there was first a stop at
El Paso, then at Houston----
Mr. KELLERMAN. San Antonio.
Representative FORD. San Antonio; then Houston, Fort Worth. You stayed
overnight at Fort Worth?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.
Representative FORD. Then you proceeded to Dallas on the 22d?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir.
Representative FORD. As I understand it, when you arrived at San
Antonio, the man that is in charge there, you immediately contacted.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed.
Representative FORD. When you go to Houston, the same process?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Fort Worth, the same?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine.
Representative FORD. And when you got to Dallas, when you arrived
there, whom did you see first?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Lawson.
Representative FORD. And what did he tell you?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He said, "Your program is all set. We have all the
equipment and there should be no problem here." Fine.
Let me go back to Fort Worth again. On that night we had an overnight.
The gentleman we had working that stop had an added thing thrown into
him, which was the speech before breakfast. The President spoke to a
crowd across the main street in front of the hotel. After the President
retired that night, he and I went down to that parking lot. I said,
show me where this man is going to be, where the platform is going to
be, where are you going to have all these folks, and how close are they
going to be; show me. He did.
You have got to keep abreast of these things, Mr. Congressman. Well, it
is your job.
Representative FORD. Were all of these men that had charge of these
various operations in San Antonio, Houston, Fort Worth, Dallas, men of
experience?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much; very much so. I want to give you a little
information on how these people are selected for doing your advance
work out of Washington. In the first place, when they are brought in,
you instruct them on everything you do securitywise around the White
House. You instruct them in rangework, followup car work, every little
phase entailed. Then say you have a little movement in town--the
President has a press conference, as an example. He doesn't do that.
Send him with an older fellow. Even if he just walks around, learn it.
Take him another place, a departure from an airport, or a theater. Give
him four or five. Then give him one, give him a little departure at
an airport, or a hotel. But have somebody with him. Then there is no
mistake made.
Representative FORD. Now, when these men are assigned to handle the
responsibilities in a particular city, such as Lawson in Dallas, is
Lawson on the staff here or is he a man from Dallas with the Secret
Service?
Mr. KELLERMAN. These are all people we have in the White House detail,
sir.
Representative FORD. In other words, Lawson was a White House detail
man from Washington?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. He is one of the men off those three shifts.
Representative FORD. Now, when was your assignment made as the man in
charge of this particular operation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am going to say a week ahead, for lack of a better
time--in fact, I knew that much of it.