Mr. KELLERMAN. I only left on three different occasions.
Mr. SPECTER. For how long were you absent on those occasions?
Mr. KELLERMAN. A minute or two to make a phone call.
Mr. SPECTER. While the autopsy was in session, or when did you leave on
those three occasions?
Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. First I was informed by a Navy personnel that I
should call Mr. Rowley. There wasn't any phone--there was a phone in
the room, but I wasn't aware of it at the time. So, I left and walked
out into the corridor and called him. This was my first knowledge that
they had found a projectile. The second call, I think I called home;
that was my first call to home and that was it.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, the projectile that you just referred to was found
where?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was the projectile that was reportedly given to our
Special Agent Richard Johnsen as we were leaving the hospital in Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you find out about that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. He says it was given to him by a security man or
security officer in the hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first hear about it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The phone call with Mr. Rowley that morning after we had
got to the morgue.
Mr. SPECTER. What time was this?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am only guessing; 9 o'clock in the evening.
Mr. SPECTER. Nine o'clock in the evening. You had said morning; you
didn't mean morning; you meant 9 o'clock in the evening when you had a
telephone call. From whom was the call again?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Rowley, Chief of Secret Service.
Mr. SPECTER. You got the phone call from Mr. Rowley?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Who had called him, if you know?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This I don't know.
Mr. SPECTER. But at that time Chief Rowley advised of the detection
of the bullet on the stretcher and brought you up to date with what
information was known at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all the times that you were absent
from the room of the autopsy?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other time that I was absent was when the
autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and
it was my decision to get Mr. Hill down and view this man for all the
damage that was done; so I went up to the floor where they were at and
brought him down and he inspected the incisions.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your reason for that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. More witnesses, Mr. Specter; I think more to view the
unfortunate happenings it would be a little better.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Immediately. Immediately after we brought him right in.
Mr. SPECTER. What time was that approximately, if you have a
recollection?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have a recollection.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did it end, if you recollect?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the
morning.
Mr. SPECTER. 3:56 a.m. on November 23?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the autopsy last all that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No. They were going to give these people a couple of
hours that they worked on them.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe, during the course of the autopsy,
bullet fragments which you might describe as little stars?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, of the numerous X-rays that were taken mainly of
the skull, the head. The reason for it was that through all the probing
which these gentlemen were trying to pick up little pieces of evidence
in the form of shell fragments, they were unable to locate any. From
the X-rays, when you placed the X-ray up against the light the whole
head looked like a little mass of stars, there must have been 30, 40
lights where these pieces were so minute that they couldn't be reached.
However, all through this series of X-rays this was the one that they
found, through X-ray that was above the right eye, and they removed
that.
Mr. SPECTER. How big a piece was that above the right eye, would you
say?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The tip of a matchhead, a little larger.
Senator COOPER. Let me ask a few questions. Mr. Kellerman, from what
you have just said, I think it would be correct that from the time you
began to assist in removing President Kennedy from his car to the time
you left him in the emergency room that you never saw any bullet on a
stretcher, either his stretcher or Governor Connally's stretcher?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I never saw any bullet, sir.
Senator COOPER. I believe you testified that, at the time you heard
this first report, the President's car was approaching a viaduct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Approaching, yes, but quite a little distance from it,
sir.
Senator COOPER. Can you make any estimate as to how far away it was.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know the footage, Senator Cooper.
Senator COOPER. Can you see it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; oh, yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Can you see the viaduct plainly?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Could you tell whether anybody was standing on top of
the viaduct, or did you observe?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't notice anybody up there at all, sir.
Senator COOPER. Did you observe whether anyone was in the immediate
vicinity of the viaduct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at this distance; no.
Senator COOPER. Do you have any--at the time of the shots, at the time
that you were conscious of these shots being fired, do you have any
judgment as to from what direction they came?
Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. Except I should say again that when
this first one went off, which I indicated here that it sounded like
a firecracker to my right and, say, rear, I looked to my right to see
what it was.
Senator COOPER. Then it would be correct to say it was your judgment at
the time, at the time of the report----
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was my judgment, sir.
Senator COOPER. That it was to the right and to the rear?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be correct. It was my judgment, sir.
Senator COOPER. Did you observe any persons standing to the right of
the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Maybe a handful.
Senator COOPER. Did you see anything to indicate that any shot had been
fired by those persons?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; not at the time.
Senator COOPER. When you heard the report and turned, could you see
this building known as the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name. You could see the building because we
passed right in front of it, sir.
Senator COOPER. You didn't know it as the Texas Depository Building?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not then, no, sir.
Senator COOPER. Have you any idea how--what distance the President's
car traveled from the time you heard the first report until the time
you have described as hearing the flurry of shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't know the distance. It wasn't too far.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It wasn't too far.
Mr. SPECTER. For the record, I have some more questions when we
reconvene.
Senator COOPER. We will recess then until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)