Mr. KELLERMAN. Still on.
Representative FORD. Still on?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You never saw his neck?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Representative FORD. At that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. At that time, I did not observe him.
Representative FORD. The only time you saw him was later at the morgue?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in
the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall any.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President
on the front part, in the shirt or tie area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. From your observation of the wound which you observed in
the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have
been above or below the shirtline when the President was clothed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It would have been below the shirtline, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the wounds of the President
to which you have referred?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the three wounds which I believe you
said Governor Connally sustained?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to refer to the medical report on Governor
Connally, wherein they said one wound was in his right back----
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper shoulder area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. One went through his wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right wrist.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am using the numbers, and he was--a missile went into
his thigh somewhere.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Governor Connally's wounds
aside from what you read in the medical report?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not personally.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any independent knowledge of which wrist and
which thigh, aside from what you read in the medical reports themselves?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I do, I talked to the Governor several times
later, and it is the right wrist, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. It is the right wrist?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And which thigh?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the left one.
Representative FORD. Is this a good point for a recess?
Mr. SPECTER. This is fine.
Representative FORD. We will take a 5-minute break.
(Short recess.)
Representative FORD. The Commission will resume, and will you proceed,
Mr. Specter, please?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes sir. One of your last answers was that the position
of the wounds on Governor Connally was ascertained from a conversation
between you and Governor Connally, as well as from the medical reports
themselves. Is that correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it is really not.
Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what your basis is for your testimony on
Governor Connally's wounds.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I have never conversed with the Governor as to his other
wounds outside of his wrist. Your medical report on Governor Connally
which indicate the shoulder wound, wrist, and in the thigh.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you have occasion to talk to him about his wrist
wound?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Over the holidays in Texas, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. The Christmas holidays?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us everything you know, either from
conversations or reports, about the wounds of Governor Connally?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Were you able to observe at the time of the
shooting and immediately thereafter, as Governor Connally went into the
hospital, any of his specific wounds?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Only of the--I am presuming now of the hand because,
when he was lying, he had it across his stomach here, and it was rather
bloody.
Mr. SPECTER. And was it the hand that was bloody, the stomach, or both?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say so right now; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Which?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The hand.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the stomach bloody at all?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, on the total
number of wounds in relationship to your view that there were more than
three shots?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, let's consider the vehicle.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant
in this regard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two
after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or
missiles, whatever it is, shell.
Mr. SPECTER. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to
hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can
tell us what that photograph depicts?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential
special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it
depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the
windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. In what position is the hit on that metal railing?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Directly to the right of the mirror.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the top of the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this
is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is
the framework.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to
the mark which you have just described?
(Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did you first observe that indentation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which
funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 27th.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that
indentation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. At the White House garage, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the
windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the
shooting occurred?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state positively whether or not that
indentation was present before the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you
saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that
correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. The indentation could conceivably have been present before
the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It could have; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. But you didn't observe it before the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the
windshield area after the assassination in Dallas?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the
windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in
the garage on or about November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record where that indentation
occurs or is placed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework
which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly
to the right of the mirror holder.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is on the inside of the car.
Representative FORD. What prompted you to make that investigation on or
about November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over
for--let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that
night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day
of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and
I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't
conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like
it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow
off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what
other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go
around and check it over myself.
Representative FORD. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to
your own personal investigation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not of the windshield; no, sir.
Representative FORD. You were the first one to find this indentation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up
on the bar.
Representative FORD. That is what I meant.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You are the first one to notice this particular
indentation?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I believe I am, sir.
Representative FORD. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the
framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in
Washington?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I honestly didn't.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of
Exhibit No. 349.
Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349
for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the Chairman,
Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture
represents?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture represents the windshield of the
President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an
outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a--the
windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked.
This crack is opposite the mirror facing the driver would be toward the
driver, to the right of the mirror, and----
Mr. SPECTER. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the
car front looking toward the car; correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the
windshield itself?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of
the mirror as you look into the automobile.
Mr. SPECTER. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously
stated?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the
appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the
windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This windshield I observed on this same day.
Mr. SPECTER. On or about November 27, 1963?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield
looked like on that day when you observed it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as
the President's automobile was being driven from the point of
assassination to the hospital?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw
the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the
windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it
in the White House garage?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in
the White House garage, did you feel the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the day that I visited the White House garage and
checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield
crack was pointed out to me, I did----
Mr. SPECTER. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom?
Mr. KELLERMAN. There were other people in the garage, Mr. Specter, like
Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka
was the other person.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it
pointed out specially?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both
inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that
was struck from the back of us or--and I was satisfied that it was.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on
the inside or outside of the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Inside, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Inside of the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the
windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you?
Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken
windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks
and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit
it came into the inside of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350.
Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.
(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 350
for identification, was received in evidence.)
Mr. SPECTER. I now call the attention of the Commission to Exhibit
No. 351, which is the windshield itself which, as the Commission may
observe, is present in the hearing room. Now, with reference to Exhibit
No. 351, which is a marking placed over a glass object, Mr. Kellerman,
can you describe for the Commission what that is?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from
the vehicle, at the time I first viewed it, this area marked in here
was all that was cracked. These are later splints.
Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed, Mr. Kellerman, do you have knowledge
as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was
taken from the President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I do not. However, I believe Mr. Greer would
be able to identify it better than I, on the removal side.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the condition of the windshield in its
present state as we are viewing it here this morning?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield this morning has--has been hit by some
object with sufficient force----
Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, Mr.
Kellerman. First, are you able to positively identify this as the
windshield from the President's automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I would say it was, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Is this the same windshield as depicted in Exhibits 349
and 350?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, starting with the principal point of
impact, where does that exist on this windshield?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The principal point of impact is located to the left of
the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of
his, I am going to say, view line.
Mr. SPECTER. As we view the windshield at this time, state whether or
not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which
you have described as the principal point of impact?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The spidering lines which extend in three different
directions--you are speaking of the large ones or the others?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to put on this record all of the spidering
lines which exist here.
Mr. KELLERMAN. OK; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area
reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it
shattered in half a dozen different ways.
Mr. SPECTER. Well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there
a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in
the general direction of the driver?
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the center of this, the impact of the center of this
scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. On that line itself, is there a further splintering off of
that line at another point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about
3 inches from the original direction.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there a change of direction at that point, or a
bifurcation, dividing it into two parts?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction
of about 3 inches?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there not a crack which then extends all the way to
the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of
the windshield from the driver facing it?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. There is a complete crack from this
so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the
view line of the driver.
Mr. SPECTER. Taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a
generally northeasterly direction?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; northeasterly.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. From a point 3 inches from the center crack,
which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there
form a point of crack in a V-direction with the line you have already
described?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there does. There is a small splint, about 2
inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a
northeasterly direction.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, moving in a clockwise direction.
Mr. KELLERMAN. In a clockwise direction.
Mr. SPECTER. What crack do you observe, if any?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I next observe on the eastward side of this center crack
a splint of about 3 inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the
southeast to the bottom of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack
do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The next crack from the central point of impact extends
down about 3 inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp
southeast to the bottom of the windshield.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction.