Mr. KELLERMAN. Like a C-130, sir.
Representative FORD. A Government?
Mr. KELLERMAN. You are right, sir; that is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities, if
you know immediately prior to the time he departed from Fort Worth?
Senator COOPER. Might I ask just one question?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Do you know whether or not prior to November 22 the
President's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the
capacity to stop or deflect a bullet?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Never had been, Senator.
Senator COOPER. There was none in existence?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities
immediately before departing from Fort Worth on the morning of November
22?
Mr. KELLERMAN. First he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke
to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people
there in Texas. From there he walked right into the hotel and entered
the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of
commerce and, I believe, the citizens group in Fort Worth.
From there he returned to his suite because there was time left before
his departure for Dallas. It was up there in the neighborhood of 10
o'clock in the morning that Special Agent Lawson called me from Dallas
asking me to verify whether the top should be put on--should remain
on the President's car or should be taken off due to the change of
weather. It had been raining slightly in Dallas at that time. I said,
"One moment and I will check with you one way or the other."
As I said earlier, the weather was clearing in Fort Worth; it was going
to be a nice day. I asked Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who is President
Kennedy's appointment secretary: "Mr. O'Donnell," I said, "the
weather; it is slightly raining in Dallas, predictions of clearing up.
Do you desire to have the bubbletop on the President's car or do you,
or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the
Trade Mart?"
His instructions to me were, "If the weather is clear and it is not
raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what I relayed
to Mr. Lawson.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from
Fort Worth?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We were airborne from Fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning.
Mr. SPECTER. In what plane were you airborne?
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the President's special plane, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in that plane in Dallas?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40 a.m.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way what President Kennedy's
activities were at Love Field, please.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Very well. May I add this: Again I said there were two
planes in this program. The then Vice President Johnson would be in
a separate plane. He would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all
right. He is in Dallas by the time we arrive at 11:40 a.m. As we are
spotted on the apron at Love Field and when the ramp is pulled forward,
the Vice President, then Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson,
together with a selected group of people would form a reception
committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade
was in place.
At 11:40, as I said, the President and Mrs. Kennedy left that plane,
met these people. As we finished greeting these folks here, there was
an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name I do not know; the
both of them met her. By this time the people are starting to get in
their automobiles for this trip into town. The President then noticed
that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a
fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area
and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there
perhaps some time before we got in.
Mr. SPECTER. By "her", who do you mean, sir?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. What would you estimate the crowd to be?
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three,
four thousand people there.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at
Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade?
Mr. KELLERMAN. At least 15.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car in line?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police
pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car--they would
drive ahead.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you personally know who was in that car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They could be several blocks ahead of us.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the general purpose of that pilot car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway
and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in
motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of
motorcycles.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on
that day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to
motorcycles?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of
that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any
disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or
secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could
be called, utilized.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the next car in line?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The next car is the lead car. That car on that day was
driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department.
His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was
carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent
in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other
occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more
fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a
portable radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a
permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front.
The next car is our Secret Service followup car which has a permanent
installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a
permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead
car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice
President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable
radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a
small Secret Service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set,
which could read all four.
So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they
had their own city police frequency radios.
Mr. SPECTER. How many frequencies were used by your own network?
Mr. KELLERMAN. One.
Representative FORD. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency
frequency?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them.
Mr. SPECTER. What automobile came behind the lead automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The President's car.
Mr. SPECTER. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their
positions, if you can, please.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. The President--President Kennedy sat on the right
rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right
jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the
left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the
right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William
Greer drove the vehicle.
Mr. SPECTER. How far were you behind the lead car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths.
Senator COOPER. What is that? I didn't hear it.
Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper.
Mr. SPECTER. What car immediately followed the President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our own Secret Service followup car.
Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the
top down.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that also a special automobile flown in?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a special automobile, flown in with the
President's car; yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their
positions in the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent
Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the
Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat,
the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front
of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of
him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special
Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was
Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of
the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis.
Mr. SPECTER. Did that automobile have jump seats?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile has jump seats.
Mr. SPECTER. And what people occupied the jump seats?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the
appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which sat on which side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the
right.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was in the back seat of that automobile?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was
Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen
Bennett.
Mr. SPECTER. How were the special agents in the followup car armed, if
at all?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch
revolver on their person.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other arms in the President's followup car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; in this followup car we have what is now known
as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle
is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the
floor, but she is ready to go.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, how far behind the President's car did the
Presidential followup car follow?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the
practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum.
Mr. SPECTER. What car was in the motorcade immediately behind the
President's followup car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Vice President Johnson's car then.
Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that on that particular day?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a Lincoln four-door Continental convertible.
This was a four-door car, with no top on it.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the
market?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is not a special car; it is a car that is on the
market.
Mr. SPECTER. What car followed the Vice President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. The car following his car was a police car. It was
driven by a member of the Dallas Police Force, or I just don't recall.
I am sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants
of the Vice President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Rufus Youngblood sat in the front seat on
the right side. In back of him on the right side and the rear was the
then Vice President Johnson. Next to him was Mrs. Johnson, and next to
Mrs. Johnson was Senator Yarborough.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Vice President Johnson seated on the right side or the
left side of the rear seat?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right side, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there jump seats in the Vice President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the driver of the Vice
President's car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Mr. Hurchel Jacks. He is a Dallas police
officer.
Mr. SPECTER. Might he be a Texas State police officer?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; you are right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the
Vice President's followup car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not the driver. The agents, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Who were they, sir?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Thomas L. Johns, Special Agent Warren
Taylor, and I believe that is all.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate their precise positions?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what car, if you know, followed the Vice President's
followup car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was car--as an example, car No. 1, which would be a
congressional car; the occupants I do not know at the present time.
Mr. SPECTER. And behind that car, describe in a general way the balance
of the motorcade, if you will, please.
Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. The balance of the motorcade, the back
of that car No. 1 which would be the congressional people would be
two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the
photographic group. Then you would have a series of guest cars, and
then a press bus. And then a police car followup, bringing up the
entire motorcade.
Mr. SPECTER. You described the motorcycles which followed the pilot
car. Were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the
back wheel of the President's vehicle, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Were those on both sides or on each side?
Mr. KELLERMAN. On each side; two on each side.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the
motorcade?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various
times en route, say, from Love Field down to the downtown section of
Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we left Love Field, the driveway from this apron on
the field was sort of a winding thing, and there were many people that
gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. I don't think
we traveled more than 12 to 15 miles until we left the airport apron
proper.
Mr. SPECTER. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Per hour.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Then, as we were in the opening between there and the
city limits of Dallas, we could have gone 25 to 30.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of the crowd at that specific point?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of
the city. Of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area
where all the people were out on the curb line.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed when you reached that area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Then we would reduce the speed down to 15 miles an hour.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled
until you reached the downtown area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. We could have been going 25 to 30 at several times, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the crowds like in the downtown area itself?
Mr. KELLERMAN. A lot of people.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the
downtown area?
Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be reduced down to 10 to 15 miles an hour, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any unusual occurrences en route from Love
Field until, say, you got to the downtown area of Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently
reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right
side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the
width of the two windows there, that said, "Please, Mr. President, stop
and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and
said, "Stop," he said, "call these people over and I will shake their
hands," which we did. The entire motorcade stopped. I got out of the
car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me.
The agents who were on the followup car, all around it. And then after
a few seconds he said, "All right; let's travel on."
Mr. SPECTER. You say the agents in the followup car moved up at the
stopping?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Always, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, what did they do on that occasion?
Mr. KELLERMAN. They crowded right in between the President, the car,
and the people.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the President actually leave the car?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long did that stop last?
Mr. KELLERMAN. A matter of seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the
downtown area itself?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can recall, however, one small affair. I think
we were in the heart of Dallas on this street when a young boy jumped
off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the
President's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the
followup car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in
motion so there was nothing out of the way.
Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No.
347 and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that
photograph represents.
The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, may I interrupt at this time to ask to
be excused? I have a session in the Supreme Court, but I will be back
later.
Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice.
(Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)
Mr. KELLERMAN. This is an aerial photo of the downtown parade.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded
coming into the area depicted by that photograph?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This is--this would be Main Street as we came
into the heart of Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. I think it might be helpful if we marked that as Main
Street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that.
Mr. CRAIG. May I suggest the witness mark it?
Mr. SPECTER. I think it is a good idea. Will you mark the street which
you have identified as Main Street?
(Witness marking.)