Did you find any door open?—No.
You looked at all the doors in the house and found them all shut?—Yes;
the servant’s door was on the jar.
You mean the maid servant’s door?—Yes.
The other doors of the house were all shut?—All the other doors were
shut.
And after you and he searched the house all over, you went to bed and he
went back to the pottery?—No; he stopped while I put on the remainder of
my clothes, and I went back with him to the pottery, after having locked
the door.
You went with him to the pottery?—Yes.
And you say that you told West this story directly?—Yes, I told him that
Mr. Church came down into my room and behaved in a very indecent manner.
You told him, I take for granted, that Church had been there, and laid
hold of your private parts?—Yes.
You told him that Mr. Church had laid hold of your private parts?—Yes.
How came that to be a reason for you and be searching the house for
thieves?—I did not search the house for thieves in particular; but to
search if any body was in any of the rooms.
But I asked you before whether you did not search the house for thieves;
and you answered “Yes.”—Are you right or wrong in that?—I asked you
before whether you and he did not search the house for thieves, and you
told me that you did?—We searched the house: we looked all over it, to
see if there was any body in any of the rooms.
And therefore I asked you expressly whether you and he did not search the
house for thieves? and did you not say expressly that you and he had
searched the house for thieves?—We searched the house; but not for
thieves in particular.
Then you did not think of thieves?—I did not think of thieves, because I
knew who it was.
You did not go into the maid servant’s room?—No, we looked in.
You did not go in?—No; we found the door open, and looked in.
They were, of course, in bed?—Yes; one was my sister.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—Did the two maids sleep in that room?—Yes, my Lord;
one is my sister.
Mr. GURNEY.—The door being ajar, you pushed it in a little, and you saw
they were abed?—Yes.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—Did you speak to them?—No.
_Re-examined by_ Mr. BOLLARD.
You say you did not search the house for thieves?—No; not for thieves.
Because you knew who the person was?—Yes.
Was the reason of your searching the house because you wished to be quite
right before you made the accusation against Mr. Church?—Yes.
And you found that there was no other man in the house?—We found there
was no other man in the house but Mr. Church.
Was there any door or window open at which any other man could have come
in?—No.
Now this light from the terrace, did that strike through the fan-light or
window over the door?—Yes.
Does it give a pretty fair light to the hall?—Yes; it shews a little
light up the stairs.
And at the time the person opened the door and went out, was it at that
time you got this view of his person?—Yes.
_Examined by_ Lord ELLENBOROUGH.
Now, you say that he came into the room—Did you hear him when he first
came into the room?—No.
You were awakened, as I understand you, by the application of his hand to
your person?—Yes.
Was he on the bed, or standing by the side of the bed on the floor?—He
was standing upon the floor.
When he assumed a feigned voice, and said, “I am your mistress,” and when
you observed it to be a feigned voice in which he was speaking, did you
not speak to him by name, and say, “It is you, Mr. Church”—(_The Witness
seemed to hesitate_, _as if he had not understood the question_)—Have you
any difficulty in hearing?—No, my Lord.
You did not call to him by name, or give him to understand that you knew
who he was?—No.
Did you see any part of his person or any part of his face from which you
knew, in addition to the knowledge you derived at hearing his voice, that
it was the Defendant, Church?—Yes, I did.
What part of his person did you see that led you to believe it was Mr.
Church?—I saw his back as he went out of the room.
Did it appear to be the height of Mr. Church?—Yes.
What height is he?—I cannot say.
What had he upon his head: had he a night-cap?—He had a night-cap.
Was it a man’s night-cap?—I cannot exactly say whether it was or no; I
think it was a handkerchief tied round his head.
What sort of a handkerchief was it; was it a coloured handkerchief?—I
could not tell that.
When you and West searched the house and examined the different doors,
did you go to Mr. Church’s door?—Yes; but we did not touch it, nor did we
go in.
Why did you not call to Mr. Church; and, as you were with West, why did
you not require that Mr. Church should appear, in order that you might,
by an immediate view, ascertain whether he was the person who had entered
your room, and acted in the way you have described?—West wanted to go
into the room and pull him out.
Then, when West wanted to pull him out, why did you not, at least, call
to him?—Because I was afraid of disturbing my mistress; she would have
been very much alarmed.
Had he ever any conversation with you, or did he ever make any overture
of this sort to you before this time?—No, my Lord.
There was nothing particular in his manner or in his conduct towards you
before this time?—No, my Lord.
There was nothing particular in his manner or conduct towards you before
this time?—No.
How soon did you see him after this to speak to him?—I have not spoken to
him at all since.
Have you never spoken to him since?—No, my Lord.
Has he not attended before a Magistrate with you?—Yes.
There you spoke in his presence, but not immediately to him?—I spoke in
his presence, but not to him.
Upon hearing him at the Office before the Magistrate, did that confirm
the opinion you entertained of his being the person who entered your
room?—I did not hear him speak before the Magistrate.
You did not hear him speak before the Magistrate?—He did not speak at all
before the Magistrate.
Did you give the same account before the Magistrate that you have now
done here?—Yes, my Lord.
You do not know whether it was a handkerchief or a night-cap that was
upon his head?—I don’t know whether it was a handkerchief or a night-cap.
Are there any other circumstances from which you could collect that it
was a man?—No, my Lord.
Did the hand continue upon your person for any length of time, and for
how long?—Not after I waked at all.
The hand was withdrawn then?—Yes.
And did the person say any thing to you?—He said that he was my mistress.
By the height of the person you saw, you could ascertain whether it was
or was not the height of your mistress, or any of the female part of the
house?—Yes; Mr. Church was a great deal bigger than any body there.
What is the size of Mr. Church?—I don’t think he is quite six foot to my
knowledge.
Is he a tall man or a short man?—He is a tallish stout man.
Was there light enough by the lamp that you have spoken of to see the
outline of the man so as to be able to say that he was a tall
person?—Yes.
What sort of a person is Mrs. Patrick?—She is a very little woman.
Quite a different person from the person you saw in the room?—O yes, my
Lord, quite so.
The maid, who slept in the room with your sister, what was her person and
size?—She was about at tall as I am—(_The Witness was about five feet
seven_)—not quite so tall.
You are sure it was not her?—O yes, my Lord.—_The Witness withdrew_.
THOMAS WEST _was next sworn_.
_Examined by_ Mr. MARRYATT.
Are you workman to Mr. Patrick, the Potter?—Yes.
Did you, on the morning of the 26th September last relieve Adam Foreman
at the kiln?—I did.
About what time of that morning did you relieve him?—About half-past
twelve o’clock.
You went to the Pottery to relieve him?—Yes.
Did he leave you shortly afterwards for the purpose of going to bed?—Yes,
he did.
How long had he left you before you saw him again?—About an hour.
When you saw him again, was he dressed or only part dressed?—Only part.
What part of his dress had he on?—He had his small-clothes, his shoes,
and one stocking.
When he came to you in that condition, did he state to you any thing that
had passed since he left you?—He came to me in a very great fright, and
bid me light my candle; he appeared very much alarmed, and bid me light
my candle, and come along with him.
Where were you to go with him?—Up to the house.
What did he state to you that had passed?—He told me, as we were going
along the garden, that Mr. Church had been to him and behaved in a very
indecent manner.
Did he explain how?—No, he did not.
Did you go into the house with him?—Yes; he unlocked the door, and we
went in.
The door of what?—The back door, where we went into the house.
The outer door?—Yes.
The garden door?—Yes.
When you got to the house, what did you and he do?—He went and put the
remainder of his clothes on.
Well; what did you and he do?—We went and searched every room in the
house, beginning at the bottom, and going on upwards to the top, except
my mistress’s room and Mr. Church’s.
Did you go into all the other rooms; did you open them all?—We went into
all the rooms except Mr. Church’s and Mrs. Patrick’s.
You did not go into Mr. Church’s room, or into that of your mistress?—No.
Did you open the doors of those two rooms?—We did not open the door of
either of those two rooms.
When you came to Mr. Church’s door, did you say any thing?—Yes; I said,
“I’ll go and pull him out; shall I?” The lad said, “No,” for fear of
disturbing his mistress.
Upon that observation of the lad’s about disturbing his mistress, did you
forbear going into the room?—Yes, I did.
What became of Foreman for the rest of the night?—He came along with me
into the Pottery; he came down stairs, locked the back door, and staid
with me the whole of the remainder of the night; he returned with me to
the Pottery, and staid ’til the morning.
Now, for what purpose did you search in all the rooms of the house?—To
see if there was any other person in the place.
Did you find any window or door open, at which any body could have got
into the house?—No; I saw them all close and fastened.
_Cross-examined by the_ COMMON SERJEANT.
When he came to you, he told you that Mr. Church had been there; but did
not explain what he had done?—No.
That you are quite sure of?—Yes.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—What words did he use?—He only told me that Church had
behaved in a very indecent manner to him.
COMMON SERJEANT.—You had never any intimation that there were thieves in
the house? You did not go to search for thieves in the house?—When he
told me that Church behaved in a very indecent manner to him, I went to
see if there was any other person in the place.
Did he not tell you he believed there were thieves in the house?—No.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—I think you are misled by what the witness, Foreman,
said. It is a mere form of expression. You are going upon a wrong
scent. The witness did not say, in terms, that he believed there were
thieves in the house.
COMMON SERJEANT.—That was particularly mentioned by Foreman in his
examination.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—He might have used the word thieves; but it is very
unimportant. It is giving a consequence to a phraze that is in very
common use, and means very little.
Mr. GURNEY.—I put the question to him in terms, whether he did not go to
search for thieves in the house.
Mr. MARRYATT.—He adopted the whole of the sentence certainly, in the
answer he gave to the question.
Mr. BOLLAND.—There were two propositions in the question, which was,
whether West and the witness did not go directly in search of thieves?
and the answer applied to the first part of the question—“as to going
together.”
Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—It is a very common expression, and no consequence
ought to be attached to it.
Mr. GURNEY.—We had heard before that he had made use of that phrase, and
therefore we were desirous of questioning him about it.
COMMON SERJEANT.—You are quite sure he did not explain in what way this
man behaved to him?—No.
Did he say any thing like this:—“That he came to his bed-side, and laid
his hand upon his private parts?”—No, Sir.
This was on the night of the 25th of September?—Yes.
You, I believe, afterwards went before the Magistrate, at the same time
with Foreman the apprentice?—Yes.
To Union Hall?—Yes.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—Did he not in the course of the morning, when staying
with you, and after you had been to the house, tell you what Church had
done to him, and that he had laid his hand upon his private parts?—No.
Never, from first to last?—No.
COMMON SERJEANT.—Pray, at what time was it that you went before the
Magistrate with this young man? Was it at all earlier than the 12th of
November following?—I cannot say the day of the month.
Was it not six or seven weeks afterwards?—It was some time afterwards.
Was it not six or seven weeks after?—I believe it was.
Mr. MARRYATT.—Did the lad then go with his father?—Yes.
COMMON SERJEANT.—The lad generally slept at home at his father’s?—Yes.
Now, how far was his father’s off from his master’s?—About a quarter of a
mile.
Did he not sleep at his father’s the next night?—The next but one he did.
And yet it was not till about six or seven weeks after that, you went to
the justice?—No.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—Did you communicate with Mr. Patrick upon the subject
before you went to the Justice.—No, my Lord.
Mr. Patrick _sworn_. _Examined by_ Mr. BOLLAND.
You are a potter at Vauxhall?—Yes.
How long was the boy, Foreman, with you?—Ever since I have been in the
pottery business, between five and six years.
Did he sleep in your house?—Only occasionally.
Upon what occasion is it that he does sleep in your house? Whenever I
leave town; and then he has the key of the pottery, there being no other
male in the house.
Were you absent from home on the 25th September last?—Yes.
Was the boy on that occasion to sleep in your house?—Yes.
Where had the bed been put up for him?—It was a chair-bed in the front
parlour; a temporary bed for a nurse occasionally.
Do you know the defendant, John Church?—Yes.
What is he, and when did you become acquainted with him?—He is a Baptist
preacher; and I first became acquainted with him when I came to Vauxhall.
Did you attend his chapel?—Yes.
And you so became acquainted with him?—Yes.
Where was his residence?—Adjoining the chapel.
Now, in the month of September, upon any occasion, and what, did he come
to sleep at your house, and did you put a bed up for him?—Yes.
On what occasion was it?—He had complained of ill health occasionally;
and thinking that he was ill, I asked him out of friendship to take a bed
at my house, supposing that the air would be of service to him.
You live near the river?—No; not very close.
You say you were out from home on the 25th of September. When did you
return?—On the evening of the 26th.
Upon your return, did the boy, Foreman, make any communication to you?—He
did the next morning when I saw him. I returned on the evening of the
26th.
By Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—Then it was the day but one after, namely, the
morning of the 27th that the boy made the communication to you?—Yes, my
Lord.
By Mr. BOLLAND.—Did you see Foreman on the night of your return?—Not to
speak with him.
But on the morning of the 27th he made the communication to you?—Yes.
Respecting this transaction?—Yes, respecting this transaction.
What did you do upon the boy’s making that communication?—I told him I
was extremely sorry for what had happened.
You need not tell us what you told him. Did you make it known?—I had
many applications from the Congregation, to whom I made it known.
Did the communication come first from you, or did they apply to you for
information?—In consequence of the information they had received from
general report, they applied to me for authentic information.
Several of the Congregation made those applications?—Yes.
What request was made to you, and in consequence of that request was
there any meeting upon the subject?—Yes.
Mr. GURNEY.—Unless Church was present, this cannot be received as
evidence.
The COMMON SERJEANT.—And even if he was present I apprehend it cannot be
received, unless it is evidence of a fact.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—It is no evidence of a fact; but in consequence of
something said by the Congregation respecting this subject, the witness
did something. The question may be put in that shape.
Mr. GURNEY.—If my learned Friend goes to that, I have no objection to
that question.
Mr. BOLLAND.—I was going on to put that question, if I had not been stopt
by my learned Friend.
By Mr. BOLLAND.—In consequence of applications made to you from the
Congregation, did you go to the Defendant, Church?—I did.
What did you state to Church; and when did you go to him upon this
subject?—I think it was on the 9th of October.
Had there not before that been a meeting of the Congregation, at which
you were present?—No.
By Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—Did you take any steps between the 27th of
September, to see Church, and the 9th of October, upon this subject?—No,
my Lord.
That was the first communication you had with Church upon this
subject?—Yes.
By Mr. BOLLAND.—What did you say to him, or he to you, upon your going to
him?—He took it extremely kind of me in calling upon him. I told him he
might take it as he pleased; that I did not come willingly, but that some
of his Congregation thought that I ought to see him on the business.
By Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—Did he appear to be apprized of the subject before
you began?—I cannot say that, my Lord, exactly. But I believe he was
apprized from what afterwards occurred.
By Mr. BOLLAND.—What passed on that occasion between you and him?—I told
him I waited upon him, having seen a letter wherein he denied three
particular points of the boy’s statement; and I wished to know what those
points were.
You told him you had seen a letter that he had written upon the
subject?—Yes.
By Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—You told him you had seen a letter upon the
subject, in which he denied three particular points of the boy’s
statement?—Yes.
By Mr. BOLLAND.—What did he say to that?—He said that he denied having
hold of the boy, or the boy having hold of him; or he, Church, saying,
that he was the boy’s mistress.
He denied the boy having hold of him, or that he, Church, having said
that he was the boy’s mistress?—Yes.
Did he say whether or not he was in the room?—He admitted that fact.
But denied the laying hold of the boy’s private parts?—Yes. He denied
the laying hold.
Did he state any reason for being in the room?—Not at all.
By Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—When you say that he admitted being in the room,
will you, as far as you can, state the words: state what he said?—He said
that he denied three particular points, two of which I have already
named. The other was something that did not occur to me to be important,
and which I did not take any notice of, and consequently I do not
remember it. I told him that of these two points, that I have mentioned,
the boy was positive, and I had no reason to doubt any thing that the boy
had said, as I had never known him to tell a lie. He said that he was
sorry for it, because that confirmed _ancient reports_. I told him it
did so; and of course I told him that now I should believe all that I had
heard heretofore; and I wished him a good morning.
Now did you see him at any time afterwards?—Not to speak to him.
By Lord ELLENBOROUGH.—You have seen him, but not spoken to him since?—I
have not spoken to him since, my Lord.
By Mr. BOLLAND.—What letter was it that you had seen which you spoke to
him about?—A letter dated the 6th of October, addressed to a Mrs. Hunter,
I took an exact copy of it. Mr. Harmer has it.