INTERVIEW AT NANKING
The best view of the religion of China is to be obtained from the
enlightened Chinese themselves, and their views will probably be of
interest to our readers. It should be explained that one of the
objects of our second visit to China was to inquire whether the Chinese
officials would welcome the foundation of Universities in which Western
knowledge could be taught, and whose atmosphere should be Christian.
When the matter was first discussed in England it crept into the
newspapers, and I immediately received an invitation from the Director
of Chinese Students in London to discuss the subject with him. I had
two interviews with him. What surprised me was that against all the
opinion of the average Englishman who is conversant with China he did
not regard the Christian character of the University as a deterrent,
but he asked one question on which he apparently laid the very greatest
stress. He inquired, "If a University is started in China on such
lines as you propose, will you guarantee that the teachers are
efficient?" I immediately assured him that the learned committees who
were considering the question at both Universities would, whatever
{173} else they did, never allow any one to go out as teacher unless he
was most fully qualified. He then assured me that he had no doubt the
scheme would meet with very great sympathy in China, and that he would
give me letters of introduction to various people who would give the
very fullest information on the subject. Among these was one to that
most eminent man, Tuan-Fang, Viceroy of Nanking.
When I arrived at Nanking I presented my letter of introduction through
the Consul, and the Viceroy most cordially invited me to tiffin at the
Yamen. With further courtesy he sent his carriage to fetch me. We had
a most sumptuous repast, at which about twenty officials were present,
and in consideration of my being a foreigner some European food was
provided. They appeared much pleased when I assured them that I
appreciated Chinese quite as much as European food. We had a most
pleasant luncheon, at which we discussed all manner of topics. I was
asked to explain exactly the position of Oxford and Cambridge, and when
I mentioned that Oxford was over a thousand years old, I had evidently
established the reputation of my University far above that of all
competitors. The Viceroy then admired the school system of England.
He said the schools were "like a forest," and he assured me that he
took the very greatest interest in education, and promised after
luncheon to show me some of his schools. I expressed admiration of
Chinese learning, and he told me it was divided into four {174}
heads--morals, elegancy of style, philosophy, and manners. The respect
that His Excellency had for Confucius did not prevent him from admiring
other philosophers, especially Mih-Tieh, the philosopher who taught the
doctrine of universal love. This was the more remarkable, because at
Hankow the very same point had been discussed with some Chinese clergy
over Sunday supper, and they had referred to this philosopher's works
with considerable admiration, and had declared that his doctrine was
much more consonant with Christianity than that of any other Chinese
philosopher.
His Excellency then discussed the danger of a modern education. He
quite realised the obvious evils that resulted from rashly encouraging
Western education without an ethical basis. He said they had observed
that those who returned from the West were less dutiful to parents than
those who had remained in China. Then we had a long talk as to whether
it was possible to assimilate the two and to give a man a perfect
foreign and a perfect Chinese education. The difficulty felt was that
men with a perfect foreign education were too often unable to write
Chinese with sufficient elegance to satisfy the fastidious taste of the
cultivated Chinese scholar. All this conversation was carried on at
the dinner-table, chiefly through interpreters, with a crowd of Chinese
servants, excluded from the room, but looking through a window to watch
when our needs required their presence.
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We discussed after tiffin the scheme for a University and the relations
between Confucianism and Christianity. His Excellency was much pleased
that I should take such interest in things Chinese, and immediately
said that as I had come all the way to China to inquire into these
things, I ought to receive every information. Turning to his
secretaries, he told them that on the next day they were to provide
scholars learned in Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism to give me all
the information that I required, and arranged that the Consul and I
should return next day. He then suggested that we should go and
inspect the school that was next his palace, and in which his own
daughter was being educated.
The school was for children of the highest class, and contained only
about thirty boys and thirty girls. He conducted a sort of informal
examination which I should have thought must have been extremely trying
for the children. His Excellency and myself came first, then two
interpreters, and then about twenty officials. When the scholars were
examined in Western knowledge, we were asked to put a question or to
look at a copy-book; when they were examined in Confucian knowledge,
His Excellency put the question, and the interpreters translated to me
both the question and the answer. The intelligence of the children was
of a very high order, and they were very attractive. The uniform of
the boys resembled that of a French schoolboy, though the cut of the
trousers showed that the {176} costume had been made by a Chinese
tailor, probably after a Japanese model. The girls were dressed in
grey coats and trousers and had natural feet; this was perhaps not
quite so remarkable as it at first appeared when one remembers that the
Viceroy is a Manchu, and the Manchus have never admired the distorted
foot of a Chinese woman; but as they went through their musical drill
one could not help thinking that the neat coat buttoned across and
reaching to the knees over loose trousers was about as ideal a dress as
has ever been invented for women. His Excellency did not fail to make
his own daughter stand up, and asked her many difficult questions,
which she answered very well in a calm and collected manner. After
showing us these schools His Excellency said that we must stop a third
day and see many of the other schools in Nanking.
Next morning I was most distressed to find that my friend Mr. King, His
Majesty's Consul, was too unwell to attend the interview which I was to
have with the learned men of Nanking, and so with some trepidation lest
I should make sad faults in my manners without his kindly guidance, I
drove up to the Yamen. There I was received by a crowd of officials,
among whom were two great Confucian scholars with the Hanlin Degree, an
authority on Buddhism and an authority on Taoism, whose knowledge
subsequently proved to be extremely small.
The courtesy of the Chinese officials, the charm of their manner, the
mixture of dignity and good nature {177} which is such a characteristic
of their behaviour, makes controversy with them delightful. I do not
think any one who has known them can be but greatly attracted by their
courtesy and kindness. All Chinese are courteous, but the Chinese
literati, perhaps naturally, greatly excel their fellow-countrymen in
this charming characteristic. I should add that the two interpreters
who were provided were men whose mastery of English was only equalled
by their wide learning and pleasant address. One of them had been in
England and was indeed a great traveller; he had ridden all through the
passes which separate India from Chinese Turkestan; he belonged to a
very great family, and traced his descent from one of the leading
pupils of Confucius.
We discussed Confucianism first. I set the ball rolling by asking what
was meant by the phrase "superior man." The position was a pleasant
one; I was there to be instructed, and could therefore ask as many
questions as I chose. The "superior man" is a translation of a phrase
in the Chinese classics which perhaps might be better translated "ideal
man"; at least so I gathered from these gentlemen; and that in the
works of Confucius and Mencius his qualities are fully described. With
great joy the whole party fell upon the question, and next minute they
were engaged in a courteous polemic as to how exactly they should
describe the "superior man," and the answer came that he must be a
conscientious man, a man very true to himself, charitable, just and
{178} truthful. When they were pressed as to whether wealth was at all
necessary to the "ideal man," they indignantly repudiated the
suggestion; the "superior man" might equally be a beggar sitting by the
roadside or a Viceroy sitting in his palace. It was more interesting
when they were asked whether he need be a learned man. There was some
doubt and hesitation in the answers; the doctors again consulted with
one another, and the answer came, "No, learning was not at all
necessary." I asked whether the "ideal man" might be a non-Chinaman,
and it was held that he might belong to any race. But the next
question was far more difficult for them to answer. Nothing that they
had said prevented the "superior man" being a Christian; a Christian
might be true and conscientious and charitable. I quoted the case of a
foreign doctor living in their city, and asked how he failed to come
within their definition of the "superior man," but the Hanlin scholars
could not agree; no Christian, in their opinion, could be a "superior
man." But my interpreter added that he himself did not endorse this;
to his mind any man who fulfilled the requirements should be classed as
a "superior man."
We then changed the conversation to the question of "whether Confucius
believed in God or not?" I had been instructed in this controversy by
one of the most learned missionaries in China, Dr. Ross of Mukden.
They maintained, as he told me they would maintain, that the Heaven of
Confucius meant Reason. {179} But Reason cannot possibly punish the
guilty, though the guilty might be punished by their want of Reason.
And as Confucius refers in several places to Heaven as a power that
punishes, the definition is obviously incorrect. It dates from a
philosopher called Chu. Again the learned men were absorbed in
controversy, every one enjoying such a discussion. The greatest number
still held to the doctrine that Heaven meant Reason, but a certain
number held that it meant a personal God. It ended in the controversy
becoming quite heated, and in a copy of Dr. Legge's translation of the
Chinese classics being fetched, so that I might fully understand their
different points of view. In the end we agreed that there was a
considerable force in the argument that Confucius believed in a
personal God.
When I further asked how Reason could possibly punish a bad man when he
was dead, and how it was that many a bad man, as we all know, died in
wealth and prosperity, they answered that after death his memory was
punished by his bad deeds coming to light. I suggested that if a man
was dead this did not matter to him, and that Confucius' assertion that
punishment followed sin implied a future life. When they were further
asked whether Confucius taught that all secret sin should one day be
made public, there was an eloquent silence, and we dropped the subject.
We then went on to discuss Buddhism, and a pleasant old gentleman
leaning on a stick was {180} brought up to instruct me in the doctrine
of Buddhism. It was obvious from the jocose and pleasant way the
matter was treated, that this was very different ground to the
philosophy of Confucius. Then, though everybody was courteous,
everybody was keenly and seriously interested, but Buddhism was
regarded as a most amusing topic; I was assured that only a few women
believed in it, and that none of those in the room gave it the
slightest credence. They explained to me why the Dalai Lama came to
Peking. Two of the disciples of Buddha had been reincarnated, and the
greatest of those two was the Dalai Lama, but it was impossible to tell
in which baby the reincarnation took place without coming to the Mongol
Temple at Peking; then lots were cast and the matter was settled. I
had my doubts whether the old gentleman was accurate, but clearly no
one else in the room had the smallest acquaintance with the subject;
they made a marked difference between the Buddhism of the Lama Temple
at Peking and that of the Monastery at Hangchow, which they called
Indian Buddhism, and said the district was often named Little India;
but when I tried to discover how many sects of Buddhists there were in
China, or what was the nature of their tenets, I could get no
information from these gentlemen.
His Excellency Tuan-Fang joined us at this moment and asked whether I
could possibly read a Sanscrit manuscript that he had discovered, and
{181} which, from the Chinese notes appended to it, he gathered
referred to Buddhism. He also wished to discuss the origin of Chinese
characters; he had a theory that they came from Egypt, and he showed
many rubbings of hieroglyphics which he had had made from monuments in
Egypt to prove his point.
But I wanted to ask some questions about Taoism. I had tried to
understand Taoism and had found it extremely difficult, and I thought
these cultured literati could give me some assistance. I was soon
undeceived. Nobody believed in Taoism, and they knew nothing of its
doctrine or of its worship. They suggested that the Taoist priests
were often to be found in a Buddhist temple, but one scholar said that
that was only because the Taoist priest liked to make a little money by
selling incense sticks.
Then His Excellency turned the tables and began asking questions about
Christianity. The thing that troubled him was that the Bible which he
had read was in such poor style. He wanted to know whether I thought
our Blessed Saviour habitually wrote in good style or not. I explained
that He had originally spoken in Aramaic, which had been translated
into Greek, and from the Greek into English, and then had been
retranslated by Englishmen into Chinese, so naturally the Chinese
version could but inadequately represent the full beauty of His words.
It is worthy of notice how much the Chinese mind is attracted by all
purely literary subjects, and how {182} little they care about physical
science. For instance, when the Viceroy asked me about the sun
standing still in the Book of Joshua, which led us into natural
science, it was immediately obvious that this was a subject in which
these gentlemen took no interest.
We then repaired to a sumptuous luncheon prepared entirely in Chinese
fashion. The viands were exquisitely cooked, and comprised bird's-nest
soup, shark's fins, white fungus, and all the usual Chinese delicacies.
The hospitality of my host made me regret that the capacity of a human
body is limited, and if it were not for the excellency of the Chinese
cooking, dyspepsia must have been the result. Over luncheon we
discussed all manner of topics, and I noticed how extremely sensitive
my hosts were to the slightest want of manners. They referred to a
mutual friend, a European, in the severest terms because he lacked in
courtesy. They discussed also the question of foot-binding. They were
convinced that the habit is being given up, and they assured me that it
did cause girls excruciating agony. They said the younger generation
of Chinese gentlemen would not marry women with deformed feet.
I left the Yamen a great admirer of the culture that could make men so
pleasant. If they lacked directness as controversialists, they were
most agreeable in their extreme civility and their imperturbable good
humour. I shall always look back to my days at Nanking as some of the
pleasantest of my life.
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