While I am upon this subject, I will make some answers briefly to certain

propositions that Judge Douglas has put. He says, "Why can't this Union

endure permanently half slave and half free?" I have said that I supposed

it could not, and I will try, before this new audience, to give briefly

some of the reasons for entertaining that opinion. Another form of his

question is, "Why can't we let it stand as our fathers placed it?" That is

the exact difficulty between us. I say that Judge Douglas and his friends

have changed it from the position in which our fathers originally placed

it. I say, in the way our father's originally left the slavery question,

the institution was in the course of ultimate extinction, and the

public mind rested in the belief that it was in the course of ultimate

extinction. I say when this government was first established it was the

policy of its founders to prohibit the spread of slavery into the new

Territories of the United States, where it had not existed. But Judge

Douglas and his friends have broken up that policy, and placed it upon

a new basis, by which it is to become national and perpetual. All I have

asked or desired anywhere is that it should be placed back again upon the

basis that the fathers of our government originally placed it upon. I have

no doubt that it would become extinct, for all time to come, if we but

readopted the policy of the fathers, by restricting it to the limits it

has already covered, restricting it from the new Territories.

I do not wish to dwell at great length on this branch of the subject at

this time, but allow me to repeat one thing that I have stated before.

Brooks--the man who assaulted Senator Sumner on the floor of the

Senate, and who was complimented with dinners, and silver pitchers, and

gold-headed canes, and a good many other things for that feat--in one

of his speeches declared that when this government was originally

established, nobody expected that the institution of slavery would last

until this day. That was but the opinion of one man, but it was such an

opinion as we can never get from Judge Douglas or anybody in favor of

slavery, in the North, at all. You can sometimes get it from a Southern

man. He said at the same time that the framers of our government did not

have the knowledge that experience has taught us; that experience and

the invention of the cotton-gin have taught us that the perpetuation of

slavery is a necessity. He insisted, therefore, upon its being changed

from the basis upon which the fathers of the government left it to the

basis of its perpetuation and nationalization.

I insist that this is the difference between Judge Douglas and

myself,--that Judge Douglas is helping that change along. I insist upon

this government being placed where our fathers originally placed it.

I remember Judge Douglas once said that he saw the evidences on the

statute books of Congress of a policy in the origin of government

to divide slavery and freedom by a geographical line; that he saw an

indisposition to maintain that policy, and therefore he set about studying

up a way to settle the institution on the right basis,--the basis which he

thought it ought to have been placed upon at first; and in that speech he

confesses that he seeks to place it, not upon the basis that the fathers

placed it upon, but upon one gotten up on "original principles." When he

asks me why we cannot get along with it in the attitude where our fathers

placed it, he had better clear up the evidences that he has himself

changed it from that basis, that he has himself been chiefly instrumental

in changing the policy of the fathers. Any one who will read his speech

of the 22d of last March will see that he there makes an open confession,

showing that he set about fixing the institution upon an altogether

different set of principles. I think I have fully answered him when he

asks me why we cannot let it alone upon the basis where our fathers

left it, by showing that he has himself changed the whole policy of the

government in that regard.

Now, fellow-citizens, in regard to this matter about a contract that was

made between Judge Trumbull and myself, and all that long portion of Judge

Douglas's speech on this subject,--I wish simply to say what I have said

to him before, that he cannot know whether it is true or not, and I do

know that there is not a word of truth in it. And I have told him so

before. I don't want any harsh language indulged in, but I do not know

how to deal with this persistent insisting on a story that I know to be

utterly without truth. It used to be a fashion amongst men that when a

charge was made, some sort of proof was brought forward to establish it,

and if no proof was found to exist, the charge was dropped. I don't know

how to meet this kind of an argument. I don't want to have a fight

with Judge Douglas, and I have no way of making an argument up into the

consistency of a corn-cob and stopping his mouth with it. All I can do

is--good-humoredly--to say that, from the beginning to the end of all that

story about a bargain between Judge Trumbull and myself, there is not a

word of truth in it. I can only ask him to show some sort of evidence

of the truth of his story. He brings forward here and reads from what he

contends is a speech by James H. Matheny, charging such a bargain between

Trumbull and myself. My own opinion is that Matheny did do some such

immoral thing as to tell a story that he knew nothing about. I believe he

did. I contradicted it instantly, and it has been contradicted by Judge

Trumbull, while nobody has produced any proof, because there is none. Now,

whether the speech which the Judge brings forward here is really the

one Matheny made, I do not know, and I hope the Judge will pardon me for

doubting the genuineness of this document, since his production of those

Springfield resolutions at Ottawa. I do not wish to dwell at any great

length upon this matter. I can say nothing when a long story like this is

told, except it is not true, and demand that he who insists upon it shall

produce some proof. That is all any man can do, and I leave it in that

way, for I know of no other way of dealing with it.

[In an argument on the lines of: "Yes, you did.--No, I did not." It bears

on the former to prove his point, not on the negative to "prove" that he

did not--even if he easily can do so.]

The Judge has gone over a long account of the old Whig and Democratic

parties, and it connects itself with this charge against Trumbull and

myself. He says that they agreed upon a compromise in regard to the

slavery question in 1850; that in a National Democratic Convention

resolutions were passed to abide by that compromise as a finality upon the

slavery question. He also says that the Whig party in National Convention

agreed to abide by and regard as a finality the Compromise of 1850. I

understand the Judge to be altogether right about that; I understand

that part of the history of the country as stated by him to be correct

I recollect that I, as a member of that party, acquiesced in that

compromise. I recollect in the Presidential election which followed,

when we had General Scott up for the presidency, Judge Douglas was around

berating us Whigs as Abolitionists, precisely as he does to-day,--not a

bit of difference. I have often heard him. We could do nothing when the

old Whig party was alive that was not Abolitionism, but it has got an

extremely good name since it has passed away.

[It almost a natural law that, when dead--no matter how bad we were--we

are automatically beatified.]

When that Compromise was made it did not repeal the old Missouri

Compromise. It left a region of United States territory half as large

as the present territory of the United States, north of the line of 36

degrees 30 minutes, in which slavery was prohibited by Act of Congress.

This Compromise did not repeal that one. It did not affect or propose to

repeal it. But at last it became Judge Douglas's duty, as he thought (and

I find no fault with him), as Chairman of the Committee on Territories, to

bring in a bill for the organization of a territorial government,--first

of one, then of two Territories north of that line. When he did so, it

ended in his inserting a provision substantially repealing the Missouri

Compromise. That was because the Compromise of 1850 had not repealed it.

And now I ask why he could not have let that Compromise alone? We were

quiet from the agitation of the slavery question. We were making no fuss

about it. All had acquiesced in the Compromise measures of 1850. We

never had been seriously disturbed by any Abolition agitation before that

period. When he came to form governments for the Territories north of the

line of 36 degrees 30 minutes, why could he not have let that matter stand

as it was standing? Was it necessary to the organization of a Territory?

Not at all. Iowa lay north of the line, and had been organized as a

Territory and come into the Union as a State without disturbing that

Compromise. There was no sort of necessity for destroying it to organize

these Territories. But, gentlemen, it would take up all my time to meet

all the little quibbling arguments of Judge Douglas to show that the

Missouri Compromise was repealed by the Compromise of 1850. My own opinion

is, that a careful investigation of all the arguments to sustain the

position that that Compromise was virtually repealed by the Compromise of

1850 would show that they are the merest fallacies. I have the report that

Judge Douglas first brought into Congress at the time of the introduction

of the Nebraska Bill, which in its original form did not repeal the

Missouri Compromise, and he there expressly stated that he had forborne to

do so because it had not been done by the Compromise of 1850. I close this

part of the discussion on my part by asking him the question again, "Why,

when we had peace under the Missouri Compromise, could you not have let it

alone?"

In complaining of what I said in my speech at Springfield, in which he

says I accepted my nomination for the senatorship (where, by the way, he

is at fault, for if he will examine it, he will find no acceptance in it),

he again quotes that portion in which I said that "a house divided against

itself cannot stand." Let me say a word in regard to that matter.

He tries to persuade us that there must be a variety in the different

institutions of the States of the Union; that that variety necessarily

proceeds from the variety of soil, climate, of the face of the country,

and the difference in the natural features of the States. I agree to all

that. Have these very matters ever produced any difficulty amongst us? Not

at all. Have we ever had any quarrel over the fact that they have laws

in Louisiana designed to regulate the commerce that springs from the

production of sugar? Or because we have a different class relative to the

production of flour in this State? Have they produced any differences? Not

at all. They are the very cements of this Union. They don't make the house

a house divided against itself. They are the props that hold up the house

and sustain the Union.

But has it been so with this element of slavery? Have we not always had

quarrels and difficulties over it? And when will we cease to have quarrels

over it? Like causes produce like effects. It is worth while to observe

that we have generally had comparative peace upon the slavery question,

and that there has been no cause for alarm until it was excited by the

effort to spread it into new territory. Whenever it has been limited to

its present bounds, and there has been no effort to spread it, there has

been peace. All the trouble and convulsion has proceeded from efforts to

spread it over more territory. It was thus at the date of the Missouri

Compromise. It was so again with the annexation of Texas; so with the

territory acquired by the Mexican war; and it is so now. Whenever there

has been an effort to spread it, there has been agitation and resistance.

Now, I appeal to this audience (very few of whom are my political

friends), as national men, whether we have reason to expect that the

agitation in regard to this subject will cease while the causes that tend

to reproduce agitation are actively at work? Will not the same cause that

produced agitation in 1820, when the Missouri Compromise was formed, that

which produced the agitation upon the annexation of Texas, and at other

times, work out the same results always? Do you think that the nature of

man will be changed, that the same causes that produced agitation at one

time will not have the same effect at another?

This has been the result so far as my observation of the slavery question

and my reading in history extends. What right have we then to hope that

the trouble will cease,--that the agitation will come to an end,--until

it shall either be placed back where it originally stood, and where

the fathers originally placed it, or, on the other hand, until it shall

entirely master all opposition? This is the view I entertain, and this

is the reason why I entertained it, as Judge Douglas has read from my

Springfield speech.

Now, my friends, there is one other thing that I feel myself under some

sort of obligation to mention. Judge Douglas has here to-day--in a very

rambling way, I was about saying--spoken of the platforms for which he

seeks to hold me responsible. He says, "Why can't you come out and make

an open avowal of principles in all places alike?" and he reads from an

advertisement that he says was used to notify the people of a speech to be

made by Judge Trumbull at Waterloo. In commenting on it he desires to know

whether we cannot speak frankly and manfully, as he and his friends do.

How, I ask, do his friends speak out their own sentiments? A Convention

of his party in this State met on the 21st of April at Springfield, and

passed a set of resolutions which they proclaim to the country as their

platform. This does constitute their platform, and it is because Judge

Douglas claims it is his platform--that these are his principles and

purposes--that he has a right to declare he speaks his sentiments "frankly

and manfully." On the 9th of June Colonel John Dougherty, Governor

Reynolds, and others, calling themselves National Democrats, met

in Springfield and adopted a set of resolutions which are as easily

understood, as plain and as definite in stating to the country and to

the world what they believed in and would stand upon, as Judge Douglas's

platform Now, what is the reason that Judge Douglas is not willing that

Colonel Dougherty and Governor Reynolds should stand upon their own

written and printed platform as well as he upon his? Why must he look

farther than their platform when he claims himself to stand by his

platform?

Again, in reference to our platform: On the 16th of June the Republicans

had their Convention and published their platform, which is as clear and

distinct as Judge Douglas's. In it they spoke their principles as plainly

and as definitely to the world. What is the reason that Judge Douglas

is not willing I should stand upon that platform? Why must he go around

hunting for some one who is supporting me or has supported me at some

time in his life, and who has said something at some time contrary to that

platform? Does the Judge regard that rule as a good one? If it turn out

that the rule is a good one for me--that I am responsible for any and

every opinion that any man has expressed who is my friend,--then it is a

good rule for him. I ask, is it not as good a rule for him as it is for

me? In my opinion, it is not a good rule for either of us. Do you think

differently, Judge?

[Mr. DOUGLAS: I do not.]

Judge Douglas says he does not think differently. I am glad of it. Then

can he tell me why he is looking up resolutions of five or six years ago,

and insisting that they were my platform, notwithstanding my protest that

they are not, and never were my platform, and my pointing out the platform

of the State Convention which he delights to say nominated me for the

Senate? I cannot see what he means by parading these resolutions, if it

is not to hold me responsible for them in some way. If he says to me here

that he does not hold the rule to be good, one way or the other, I do not

comprehend how he could answer me more fully if he answered me at greater

length. I will therefore put in as my answer to the resolutions that he

has hunted up against me, what I, as a lawyer, would call a good plea to a

bad declaration. I understand that it is an axiom of law that a poor plea

may be a good plea to a bad declaration. I think that the opinions the

Judge brings from those who support me, yet differ from me, is a bad

declaration against me; but if I can bring the same things against him, I

am putting in a good plea to that kind of declaration, and now I propose

to try it.

At Freeport, Judge Douglas occupied a large part of his time in producing

resolutions and documents of various sorts, as I understood, to make me

somehow responsible for them; and I propose now doing a little of the

same sort of thing for him. In 1850 a very clever gentleman by the name

of Thompson Campbell, a personal friend of Judge Douglas and myself, a

political friend of Judge Douglas and opponent of mine, was a candidate

for Congress in the Galena District. He was interrogated as to his views

on this same slavery question. I have here before me the interrogatories,

and Campbell's answers to them--I will read them:

INTERROGATORIES:

"1st. Will you, if elected, vote for and cordially support a bill

prohibiting slavery in the Territories of the United States?

"2d. Will you vote for and support a bill abolishing slavery in the

District of Columbia?

"3d. Will you oppose the admission of any Slave States which may be formed

out of Texas or the Territories?

"4th. Will you vote for and advocate the repeal of the Fugitive Slave law

passed at the recent session of Congress?

"5th. Will you advocate and vote for the election of a Speaker of the

House of Representatives who shall be willing to organize the committees

of that House so as to give the Free States their just influence in the

business of legislation?

"6th. What are your views, not only as to the constitutional right of

Congress to prohibit the slave-trade between the States, but also as to

the expediency of exercising that right immediately?"

CAMPBELL'S REPLY.

"To the first and second interrogatories, I answer unequivocally in the

affirmative.

"To the third interrogatory I reply, that I am opposed to the admission of

any more Slave States into the Union, that may be formed out of Texas or

any other Territory.

"To the fourth and fifth interrogatories I unhesitatingly answer in the

affirmative.

"To the sixth interrogatory I reply, that so long as the Slave States

continue to treat slaves as articles of commerce, the Constitution confers

power on Congress to pass laws regulating that peculiar COMMERCE, and that

the protection of Human Rights imperatively demands the interposition of

every constitutional means to prevent this most inhuman and iniquitous

traffic.

"T. CAMPBELL."

I want to say here that Thompson Campbell was elected to Congress on that

platform, as the Democratic candidate in the Galena District, against

Martin P. Sweet.

[Judge DOUGLAS: Give me the date of the letter.]

The time Campbell ran was in 1850. I have not the exact date here. It

was some time in 1850 that these interrogatories were put and the answer

given. Campbell was elected to Congress, and served out his term. I think

a second election came up before he served out his term, and he was

not re-elected. Whether defeated or not nominated, I do not know. [Mr.

Campbell was nominated for re-election by the Democratic party, by

acclamation.] At the end of his term his very good friend Judge Douglas

got him a high office from President Pierce, and sent him off to

California. Is not that the fact? Just at the end of his term in Congress

it appears that our mutual friend Judge Douglas got our mutual friend

Campbell a good office, and sent him to California upon it. And not only

so, but on the 27th of last month, when Judge Douglas and myself spoke at

Freeport in joint discussion, there was his same friend Campbell, come

all the way from California, to help the Judge beat me; and there was poor

Martin P. Sweet standing on the platform, trying to help poor me to be

elected. That is true of one of Judge Douglas's friends.

So again, in that same race of 1850, there was a Congressional Convention

assembled at Joliet, and it nominated R. S. Molony for Congress, and

unanimously adopted the following resolution:

"Resolved, That we are uncompromisingly opposed to the extension

of slavery; and while we would not make such opposition a ground of

interference with the interests of the States where it exists, yet we

moderately but firmly insist that it is the duty of Congress to oppose

its extension into Territory now free, by all means compatible with the

obligations of the Constitution, and with good faith to our sister States;

that these principles were recognized by the Ordinance of 1787, which

received the sanction of Thomas Jefferson, who is acknowledged by all to

be the great oracle and expounder of our faith."

Subsequently the same interrogatories were propounded to Dr. Molony which

had been addressed to Campbell as above, with the exception of the 6th,

respecting the interstate slave trade, to which Dr. Molony, the Democratic

nominee for Congress, replied as follows:

"I received the written interrogatories this day, and, as you will see by

the La Salle Democrat and Ottawa Free Trader, I took at Peru on the 5th,

and at Ottawa on the 7th, the affirmative side of interrogatories 1st and

2d; and in relation to the admission of any more Slave States from Free

Territory, my position taken at these meetings, as correctly reported in

said papers, was emphatically and distinctly opposed to it. In relation

to the admission of any more Slave States from Texas, whether I shall go

against it or not will depend upon the opinion that I may hereafter form

of the true meaning and nature of the resolutions of annexation. If, by

said resolutions, the honor and good faith of the nation is pledged to

admit more Slave States from Texas when she (Texas) may apply for the

admission of such State, then I should, if in Congress, vote for their

admission. But if not so PLEDGED and bound by sacred contract, then a bill

for the admission of more Slave States from Texas would never receive my

vote.

"To your fourth interrogatory I answer most decidedly in the affirmative,

and for reasons set forth in my reported remarks at Ottawa last Monday.

"To your fifth interrogatory I also reply in the affirmative most

cordially, and that I will use my utmost exertions to secure the

nomination and election of a man who will accomplish the objects of said

interrogatories. I most cordially approve of the resolutions adopted at

the Union meeting held at Princeton on the 27th September ult.

"Yours, etc., R. S. MOLONY."

All I have to say in regard to Dr. Molony is that he was the regularly

nominated Democratic candidate for Congress in his district; was elected

at that time; at the end of his term was appointed to a land-office at

Danville. (I never heard anything of Judge Douglas's instrumentality

in this.) He held this office a considerable time, and when we were at

Freeport the other day there were handbills scattered about notifying the

public that after our debate was over R. S. Molony would make a Democratic

speech in favor of Judge Douglas. That is all I know of my own personal

knowledge. It is added here to this resolution, and truly I believe, that

among those who participated in the Joliet Convention, and who supported

its nominee, with his platform as laid down in the resolution of the

Convention and in his reply as above given, we call at random the

following names, all of which are recognized at this day as leading

Democrats:

"Cook County,--E. B. Williams, Charles McDonell, Arno Voss, Thomas Hoyne,

Isaac Cook."

I reckon we ought to except Cook.

"F. C. Sherman.

"Will,--Joel A. Matteson, S. W. Bowen.

"Kane,--B. F. Hall, G. W. Renwick, A. M. Herrington, Elijah Wilcox.

"McHenry,--W. M. Jackson, Enos W. Smith, Neil Donnelly.

La Salle,--John Hise, William Reddick."

William Reddick! another one of Judge Douglas's friends that stood on the

stand with him at Ottawa, at the time the Judge says my knees trembled so

that I had to be carried away. The names are all here:

"Du Page,--Nathan Allen.

"De Kalb,--Z. B. Mayo."

Here is another set of resolutions which I think are apposite to the

matter in hand.

On the 28th of February of the same year a Democratic District Convention

was held at Naperville to nominate a candidate for Circuit Judge. Among

the delegates were Bowen and Kelly of Will; Captain Naper, H. H. Cody,

Nathan Allen, of Du Page; W. M. Jackson, J. M. Strode, P. W. Platt, and

Enos W. Smith of McHenry; J. Horssnan and others of Winnebago. Colonel

Strode presided over the Convention. The following resolutions were

unanimously adopted,--the first on motion of P. W. Platt, the second on

motion of William M. Jackson:

"Resolved, That this Convention is in favor of the Wilmot Proviso, both in

Principle and Practice, and that we know of no good reason why any person

should oppose the largest latitude in Free Soil, Free Territory and Free

speech.

"Resolved, That in the opinion of this Convention, the time has arrived

when all men should be free, whites as well as others."

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