Mr. POINDEXTER observed, that as the bill must stand or fall on its
principle, and could not want amendment, he should wish to dispense
with the usual course of reference to a Committee of the Whole, and
that it should be engrossed for a third reading.
Mr. TROUP hoped the House would not be precipitated unadvisedly into a
decision of a question of this kind; that they would not break in upon
a system which had served them so well without maturely deliberating
upon it. The ordinance for the government of the Territories he
considered as constitutional law, and it should be viewed and treated
with as much delicacy as the constitution of the General Government
itself. It had served them well, it had nurtured the Territories from
infancy to maturity, and he hoped the house would not innovate on the
system, but for the most substantial reasons. He therefore wished this
bill to take the course of all other business, and go to a Committee of
the Whole.
Mr. POINDEXTER said it was not his object to exclude deliberation by
his motion; as the day for its third reading might be fixed a fortnight
hence, if the gentleman from Georgia wished it. He knew the difficulty
of getting up such bills when committed to a Committee of the Whole;
he also knew that in a few days the House would be engaged in great
national concerns, which would occupy their entire attention to the
exclusion of other business of minor importance. The gentlemen seem
to think (said Mr. P.) that to leave to the Governors of Territories
of the United States powers which are fitted but for the Sovereigns
of Europe, is highly decorous; whilst I think they should be spurned
from the statute book. The gentleman is mistaken when he says that we
should view the ordinances in the same light as the constitution; they
are mere statutes. Placed by the constitution under the particular care
of Congress as the Territories are, the ordinances enacted for their
government are mere statutes, subject to the revision of Congress, as
other laws are.
Mr. PITKIN said the ordinances for the government of the Territories
had been framed with great deliberation, and should always be
considered as a compact between the General Government and its
Territories. Whether an alteration could or could not be made without
their consent, he would not undertake to say. He thought therefore in
this case the usual rule should not be violated, for it was well known
that no amendment could be received on the third reading of a bill.
Mr. TROUP said the gentleman from the Mississippi Territory had totally
mistaken his object. It was not procrastination that he wanted, but
a mature consideration of the question, whether on this day or on
this day fortnight. When he had considered the ordinance as a compact
equally sacred with the constitution of the United States, and as
unalterable without the consent of the parties to it, it was then that
he considered this a question of such great and signal importance that
he wished time for deliberation. And when he said this, he expressed
the opinion of a man than whom no man in the country was more deeply
read in its constitution--St. George Tucker--who had described it
as a compact unalterable, but with the consent of both parties. The
gentleman would take away from the Territorial Governors the power to
prorogue and dissolve the Assemblies. What would then be the state of
the Territorial Legislatures? They would (said Mr. T.) be as completely
independent of the General Government as the General Government is,
I hope, of Great Britain at this moment. Retain the qualified veto,
and take away the power to prorogue and dissolve, and what will be
the consequence? The moment a misunderstanding takes place between
the Legislature and Executive, legislation is at an end; and where
legislation ends, revolution begins, and there is an end of government.
Mr. POINDEXTER said, at the suggestion of several gentlemen, he should
consent to a reference of the bill to a committee, as he did not wish
now to hasten the discussion. But the gentleman was mistaken if he
supposed that taking away the power to prorogue, would deprive the
Governors of their veto on laws. The Governors had an unqualified veto
on the acts of the Legislature. The gentleman said, (observed Mr. P.,)
that take away the power of prorogation, and if a misunderstanding
arise between the Governor and the Legislature, there is an end of
legislation. That is now the fact. If there be any misunderstanding
between them, the Governor sends the Legislature home; and I agree
with the gentleman from Georgia, "where legislation ends, revolution
begins." In this situation, I wish to take some power from the Governor
and place it in the people, which would render the Government more
congenial to the spirit of the constitution and of the people of the
United States. But I waive discussion and consent to reference.
The bill was made the order of the day for to-morrow.
THURSDAY, November 17.
Another member, to wit, DENNIS SMELT, from Georgia, appeared, and took
his seat in the House.
_Foreign Relations._
Mr. MACON said, already had many resolutions been submitted to the
consideration of the House on the subject of our foreign relations,
and the embargo; some for a total and some for a partial repeal of
it. As none of the motions had met his entire approbation, and as he
considered this as one of the most important questions that could
come before the House, he wished to submit to the House two or three
propositions; which he wished to take a course different from that
which had been given to the others on the same subject.
I have been astonished (said Mr. M.) to see so many resolutions on the
subject of the embargo, and none contemplating its entire continuance.
Is the American nation ready to bow the neck? Are we ready to submit
to be taxed by Great Britain and France, as if we were their colonies?
Where is that spirit which for this reason separated us from the
nations of Europe? Where is that spirit which enforced a simple
resolution of the old Congress, not then binding upon the people, as
a law from Heaven? Is it extinct? Is it lost to this nation? Has the
love of gain superseded every other motive in the breasts of Americans?
Shall the majority govern, or shall a few wicked and abandoned men
drive this nation from the ground it has taken? Is it come to this,
that a law constitutionally enacted, even after a formal decision in
favor of its constitutionality, cannot be enforced? Shall the nation
give way to an opposition of a few, and those the most profligate part
of the community? I think the stand we took last year was a proper one;
and I am for taking every measure for enabling the nation to maintain
it. Just as our measure is beginning to operate, just as provisions are
becoming scarce in the West Indies and elsewhere, notwithstanding the
evasions of our law, we are called upon to repeal it. I should not have
made this motion at this time, had it not been for the petition just
presented. When I stand here, sir, charged by a part of the community
with being one of "the enemies of the people," notwithstanding I am
willing to commit the petition, treating it with that respect which I
conceive to be due from us to the prayer of any portion of the people,
I wish my sentiments on this subject to be seen.
A proclamation has been issued by one of the belligerents since the
passage of our embargo law, sir. Look at it. What says it? Clearance
or no clearance, we will receive any neutral vessel into our ports;
and, in speaking of neutrals, recollect that there is no nation in the
civilized world that has a claim to the title, except ourselves. This
proclamation then tells our citizens, "Evade the laws of your country,
and we will receive and protect you." This is the plain English of it.
If the mad powers of Europe had entered into compact to injure us as
much as they could, they could not have taken a more direct course to
it. I consider them both alike, and the measures I would take would
place them both on the same footing. I have made my resolutions as
general as possible, to give all latitude to the committee.
Mr. M. then read his resolutions as follows:
"_Resolved_, That the committee appointed on that part of the
President's Message which relates to our foreign relations, be
instructed to inquire into the expediency of excluding by law
from the ports, harbors, and waters of the United States, all
armed ships and vessels belonging to any of the belligerent
powers having in force orders or decrees violating the lawful
commerce of the United States as a nation.
"_Resolved_, That the same committee be instructed to inquire
into the expediency of prohibiting by law the admission into
the ports, harbors, and waters of the United States, any
ship or vessel belonging to or coming from any place in the
possession of any of the above-mentioned powers, and also the
importation of any goods, wares, and merchandise, the growth,
produce and manufacture of the dominions of any of the said
powers.
"_Resolved_, That the same committee be instructed to inquire
into the expediency of amending the act laying an embargo, and
the several acts supplementary and additional thereto."
On the subject of the first of these resolutions (said Mr. M.) it might
be proper to interdict the entrance of all armed vessels, although I
have confined the interdiction to the belligerents. A certain time
might be fixed on which the second should go into operation.
I have thought proper, sir, to bring forward all these resolutions
together to show my own opinion on what ought to be done. It is time
for those who think the embargo a lawful and proper measure, to come
forward and declare it. No other person having as yet thought proper
to do it, I have now done it. I believe the embargo was right; that it
was right to pass laws to enforce it; and believing this, I feel no
hesitation in avowing it. Time has been when the impressment of our
seamen was cried out against by a large majority of Congress. Now the
cry is, that we will not let them go out and be taken. For if they
go out they must be taken. Neither of the two great powers of Europe
have shown the least disposition to relax their measures; neither
I hope shall we. I believe we have but three alternatives--_war_,
_embargo_, or _submission_. The last I discard; this nation never would
submit; nor are there many people in it that would. That is out of the
question; then, the only question is, whether in the present state of
the world, the embargo or war is the best for us? Arm your merchantmen,
as has been proposed, send them out, and you have war directly? If we
are to have war, I should rather have it openly, and let the nation
know that we mean it. I am for the embargo yet. I am told flour is from
thirty to fifty dollars a barrel in the West Indies; I am also told
that wheat is fourteen shillings sterling a bushel in England. This
must have an effect, if adhered to, through Spain and Portugal. France,
if she carries her armies into that country, cannot support them. Nor
can Spain support her own armies, and at the same time those Great
Britain sends there; for where war is waged, almost all agriculture is
destroyed; and it only requires firmness in us to force them both by
this measure to acknowledge our rights. If I am mistaken in my opinion,
I wish that measure to be adopted which may best maintain our rights
and independence.
It is not the embargo which causes the pressure on the people. No, sir,
it is the orders and decrees of England and France. Take a license from
England, and you may trade, but on no other terms. Let an officer of
the British fleet visit your vessel, and France will condemn it. These
are the things which destroy commerce. The country in which I live
feels the measure as much as any; there are agriculturists, and their
crops remain unsold; and if they will do without the principal, and
resist imposition by withholding their produce, those who make a profit
by the freight of our produce, may afford to lose that profit. Can
any man tell what would be the consequence of war, in these times? In
common war some regard is had to the laws of nations by belligerents,
and they fight each other. In the present war the belligerents
disregard the laws of nations, and fight every one but one another.
Mr. QUINCY said he wished the last resolution to be separated from the
first, as the House would be committed by its adoption. Not that he
wished to avoid a discussion of that subject, for he wished for nothing
so much as that the House would permit them to go into a discussion
of the subject in Committee of the Whole. [Mr. MACON consented that
the last resolution should lie on the table.] Mr. Q. said he wished
to press a discussion on the subject of the embargo; for such was the
state of public opinion in the Northern part of the Union, that but
one general sentiment prevailed, that the embargo would be immediately
raised. Instead of postponing the subject from day to day, he only
wished it to come before the House that gentlemen might understand one
other, and put an end to the doubts that now existed.
The first and second resolutions offered by Mr. MACON were agreed to
without a division. The third was ordered to lie on the table--yeas 78.
FRIDAY, November 18.
_Territorial Governments.--Ordinance of 1787._
On motion of Mr. POINDEXTER, the House resolved itself into a Committee
of the Whole, on the bill concerning Territorial Governments.