I said: "Mr. Saville is the chief clerk, and he buys the carpets."

Mr. Stewart said: "Tell him to come to me; I will sell him carpets

as cheap as anybody."

When I repeated Mr. Stewart's message to the President he made no

reply, and he gave no indication that he was hearing what I was saying.

In regard to Judge Hoar's relations to President Grant, the public has

been invited to accept several errors, the appointment to the bench of

the Supreme Court of Justices Bradley and Strong, by whose votes the

first decision of the court in the Legal Tender cases was overruled,

and the circumstances which led to the retirement of Judge Hoar from

the Cabinet. First of all I may say that President Grant was attached

to Judge Hoar, and, as far as I know, his attachment never underwent

any abatement. Whatever bond there may be in the smoking habit, it

was formed without delay at the beginning of their acquaintance. While

General Grant was not a teller of stories, he enjoyed listening to good

ones, and of these Judge Hoar had a large stock always at command.

General Grant enjoyed the society of intellectual men, and Judge Hoar

was far up in that class. General Grant had regrets for the retirement

of Judge Hoar from his Cabinet, and for the circumstances which led to

his retirement. His appointment of Judge Hoar upon the Joint High

Commission and the nomination of Judge Hoar to a seat upon the bench of

the Supreme Court may be accepted as evidence of General Grant's

continuing friendship, and of his disposition to recognize it,

notwithstanding the break in official relations.

Judge Hoar's professional life had been passed in Massachusetts, and

he had no personal acquaintance with the lawyers of the circuit from

which Justices Strong and Bradley were appointed. Strong and Bradley

were at the head of the profession in the States of New Jersey and

Pennsylvania, and in truth there was no debate as to the fitness of

their appointment. Judge Hoar was not responsible for their

appointment, and I am of the opinion that the nomination would have

been made even against his advice, which assuredly was not so given.

Judge Strong, as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania,

had sustained the constitutionality of the Legal Tender Act, and it

was understood that Bradley was of the same opinion. As the President

and Cabinet were of a like opinion, it may be said that there could

have been no "packing" of the Supreme Court except by the exclusion

of the two most prominent lawyers in the circuit and the appointment

of men whose opinions upon a vital question were not in harmony with

the opinion of the person making the appointment.

As to myself, I had never accepted the original decision as sound law

under the Constitution, nor as a wise public policy, if there had

been no Constitution. By the decision the Government was shorn of a

part of its financial means of defence in an exigency. When the

Supreme Court had reached a conclusion, Chief Justice Chase called

upon me and informed me of that fact, about two weeks in advance of

the delivery of the opinion. He gave as a reason his apprehension of

serious financial difficulties due to a demand for gold by the

creditor class. Not sharing in that apprehension, I said: "The

business men are all debtors as well as creditors, and they cannot

engage in a struggle over gold payments, and the small class of

creditors who are not also debtors will not venture upon a policy in

which they must suffer ultimately." The decision did not cause a

ripple in the finances of the country.

Pursuing the conversation, I asked the Chief Justice where he found

authority in the Constitution for the issue of non-legal-tender

currency. He answered in the power to borrow money and in the power

given to Congress to provide for the "general welfare of the United

States." I then said, having in mind the opinion in the case of

MacCulloch and Maryland, in which the court held that where a power

was given to Congress, its exercise was a matter of discretion unless

a limitation could be found in the Constitution: "Where do you find

a limitation to the power to borrow money by any means that to Congress

may appear wise?" The Chief Justice was unable to specify a

limitation, and the question remains unanswered to this day.

When the case of Hepburn and Griswold was overruled in the Legal Tender

cases, the Chief Justice was very much disturbed, and with the

exhibition of considerable feeling, he said: "Why did you consent to

the appointment of judges to overrule me?" I assured him that there

was no personal feeling on the part of the President, and that as to

my own unimportant part in the business, he had known from the time of

our interview in regard to the former action of the court that I

entertained the opinion that the decision operated as a limitation of

the constitutional powers of Congress and that its full and final

recognition might prove injurious to the country whenever all its

resources should be required. At the time of the reversal, the Chief

Justice did not conceal his dissatisfaction with his life and labors

on the bench, and at the interview last mentioned he said that he

should be glad to exchange positions with me, if it were possible to

make the exchange.

Various reasons have been assigned for the step which was taken by

President Grant in asking Judge Hoar to retire from the Cabinet. Some

have assumed that the President was no longer willing to tolerate the

presence of two members from the same State. That consideration had

been passed upon by the President at the outset, and he had overruled

it or set it aside. In my interview with Mr. Washburne the Sunday

before my nomination, I had said to him that Judge Hoar and I were not

only from the same State, but that we were residents of the same

county, and within twenty miles of each other. Moreover, any public

dissatisfaction which had existed at the beginning had disappeared.

In the meantime the President had become attached to Judge Hoar. Nor

is there any justifying foundation for the conjecture that a vacancy

was created for the purpose of giving a place in the Cabinet to another

person, or to another section of the country. General Grant's

attachment to his friends was near to a weakness, and the suggestion

that he sacrificed Judge Hoar to the low purpose of giving a place to

some other person is far away from any true view of his character.

Judge Hoar had had no administrative experience on the political side

of the government, and he underestimated the claims, and he undervalued

the rights, of members of Congress. As individuals the members of

Congress are of the Government, and in a final test the two Houses may

become the Government. More than elsewhere the seat of power is in the

Senate, and the Senate and Senators are careful to exact a recognition

of their rights. They claim, what from the beginning they have

enjoyed, the right to be heard by the President and the heads of

departments in their respective States. They do not claim to speak

authoritatively, but as members of the Government having a right to

advise, and under a certain responsibility to the people for what may

be done.

It was claimed by Senators that the Attorney-General seemed not to

admit their right to speak in regard to appointments, and that

appointments were made of which they had no knowledge, and of which

neither they nor their constituents could approve. These differences

reached a crisis when Senators (I use the word in the plural) notified

the President that they should not visit the Department of Justice

while Judge Hoar was Attorney-General. Thus was a disagreeable

alternative presented to the President, and a first impression would

lead to the conclusion that he ought to have sustained the Attorney-

General. Assuming that the complaints were well founded, it followed

that the Attorney-General was denying to Senators the consideration

which the President himself was recognizing daily.

President Grant looked upon members of his Cabinet as his family for

the management of civil affairs, as he had looked upon his staff as

his military family for the conduct of the army, and he regarded a

recommendation for a Cabinet appointment as an interference. His

first Cabinet was organized upon that theory somewhat modified by a

reference to locality. Mr. Borie who became Secretary of the Navy

was a most excellent man, but he had had no preparation either by

training or experience for the duties of a department. Of this he

was quite conscious, and he never attempted to conceal the fact. He

often said:

"The department is managed by Admiral Porter, I am only a figure-head."

In a few months he resigned. His associates were much attached to him.

He was a benevolent, genial, well informed man. His successor, Mr.

Robeson, was a man of singular ability, lacking only the habit of

careful, continuous industry. This failing contributed to his

misfortunes in administration and consequently he was the subject of

many attacks in the newspapers and in Congress. After his retirement

he became a member of the House of Representatives, and it was a

noticeable fact, that from that day the attacks in Congress ceased.

As a debater he was well equipped, and in reference to his

administration of the Navy Department, he was always prepared with an

answer or an explanation in every exigency.

The appointment of Governor Fish to the Department of State, gave rise

to considerable adverse comment. The chief grounds of complaint were

that he was no longer young and that recently he had not been active

in political contests. He had been a Whig when there was a Whig Party,

and he became a Republican when the Republican Party was formed. As a

Whig he had been a member of the House of Representatives and of the

Senate of the United States, but he had not held office as a

Republican, nor was he known generally as a speaker or writer in

support of the policies or principles of the party. His age, then

about sixty, was urged as a reason against his appointment. His

selection as Secretary was extremely fortunate for General Grant and

his administration. Governor Fish was painstaking in his office,

exacting in his demands upon subordinates, without being harsh or

unjust, diligent in his duties, and fully informed as to the traditions

and usages of his department. Beyond these administrative qualities

he had the capacity to place every question of a diplomatic character

upon a foundation at once reasonable and legal. If the failure of Mr.

Stewart led to the appointment of Governor Fish the change was

fortunate for General Grant and the country. After the failure of Mr.

Stewart, Mr. Washburne spoke of his appointment to the State

Department, as only temporary, but for a few days he acted as though

he expected to remain permanently. If his transfer to France was an

afterthought, he and the President very carefully concealed that fact.

It is not probable that the President at the outset designed to take

the Secretary of State and the Secretary of the Treasury from New York

City. Hence I infer that the failure of Mr. Stewart worked a change

in the headship of the State Department, and hence I am of the opinion

that the failure of Mr. Stewart was of great advantage to the

administration and to the country, and that without considering whether

there was a gain or loss in the Treasury Department. There can be no

doubt that Governor Fish was a much wiser man than Mr. Washburne for

the management of foreign affairs and there can be as little doubt that

Mr. Washburne could not have been excelled as Minister to Paris in the

troublous period of the years 1870 and 1871.

Mr. Fish had no ambitions beyond the proper and successful

administration of his own department. He did not aspire to the

Presidency, and he remained in the State Department during General

Grant's second term, at the special request of the President.

Mr. Sumner's removal from the chairmanship of the Committee on Foreign

Relations was due to the fact that a time came when he did not

recognize the President, and when he declined to have any intercourse

with the Secretary of State outside of official business. Such a

condition of affairs is always a hindrance in the way of good

government, and it may become an obstacle to success. Good government

can be secured only through conferences with those who are responsible,

by conciliation, and not infrequently by concessions to the holders of

adverse opinions. The time came when such a condition was no longer

possible between Mr. Sumner and the Secretary of State.

The President and his Cabinet were in accord in regard to the

controversy with Great Britain as to the Alabama Claims. Mr. Sumner

advocated a more exacting policy. Mr. Motley appeared to be following

Mr. Sumner's lead, and the opposition to Mr. Sumner extended to Mr.

Motley. It had happened that the President had taken on a prejudice

to Mr. Motley at their first interview. This I learned when I said

something to the President in the line of conciliation. The President

said: "Such was my impression of Motley when I saw him that I should

have withheld his appointment if I had not made a promise to Sumner."

My acquaintance with Mr. Motley began in the year 1849, when we were

members of the Massachusetts House of Representatives, and I had a

high regard for him, although it had been charged that I had had some

part in driving him from politics into literature.

When we consider the natures and the training of the two men, it is

not easy to imagine agreeable co-operation in public affairs by Mr.

Sumner and General Grant. Mr. Sumner never believed in General Grant's

fitness for the office of President, and General Grant did not

recognize in Mr. Sumner a wise and safe leader in the business of

government. General Grant's notion of Mr. Sumner, on one side of his

character, may be inferred from his answer when, being asked if he

had heard Mr. Sumner converse, he said: "No, but I have heard him

lecture."

As I am to speak of Mr. Sumner in our personal relations, which for

thirteen years before his death were intimate, I shall use some words

of preface. Never on more than two occasions did we have differences

that caused any feeling on either side. Mr. Sumner was chairman in the

Senate of the Committee on the Freedmen's Bureau, and Mr. Eliot was

chairman of the Committee of the House. A report was made in each

House, and each bill contained not less than twenty sections. Each

House passed its own bill. A committee of conference was appointed.

Its report was rejected. I was appointed a member of the second

committee.

I examined the bills, and I marked out every section that was not

essential to the working of the measure. Four sections remained.

I then added a section which provided for the lease and ultimate sale

of the confiscated lands to the freedmen and refugees. President

Johnson's restoration of those lands made that section non-operative.

The committee, upon the motion of General Schenck, transferred the

jurisdiction of the Bureau from the Treasury to the War Department.

The bill was accepted by the committee, and passed by the two Houses.

When within a few days I was in the Senate Chamber, Mr. Sumner came to

me, and said in substance: "The Freedmen's Bureau Bill as it passed is

of no value. I have spent six months upon the bill, and my work has

gone for nothing. You and General Schenck cannot pretend to know as

much as I know about the measure."

With some feeling, which was not justifiable, I said: "I have not

spent six hours upon the measure, but after what you have said I will

say that the fifth section is of more value than all the sections which

you have written." I did not wait for a reply. The subject was not

again mentioned; our friendly relations were not disturbed, and it is

to Mr. Sumner's credit on the score of toleration that he passed over

my rough remarks, even though he had given some reason for a retort.

My next difference from Mr. Sumner was a more serious difference, but

it passed without any break in our relations. He had not acquired the

church-going habit, or he had renounced it, and my church-going was

spasmodic rather than systematic. Thus it became possible and

agreeable for me to spend some small portion of each Sunday in his

rooms. The controversy over Mr. Motley and his removal from the post

of minister to Great Britain excited Mr. Sumner to a point far beyond

any excitement to which he yielded, arising from his own troubles or

from the misfortunes of the country. To him it was the topic of

conversation at all times and in all places. That habit I accepted at

his house with as much complacency as I could command. Indeed, I was

not much disturbed by what he said to me in private, and certainly not

by what he said in his own house, where I went from choice, and without

any obligation to remain resting upon me. In all his conversation he

made General Grant responsible for the removal of Motley, accompanied,

usually, with language of censure and condemnation. On two occasions

that were in a measure public, one of which was at a dinner given to me

by Mr. Franklin Haven, a personal friend of twenty years' standing,

when he insisted upon holding the Motley incident as the topic of

conversation. On one of these occasions, and in excitement, he turned

to me and said: "Boutwell, you ought to have resigned when Motley

was removed."

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