Sir T. D. Acland.
Mr. Aldam.
Viscount Courtenay.
Viscount Ebrington.
Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. Forster.
Mr. Milnes.
Mr. Wilson Patten.
Mr. G. W. Wood.
VISCOUNT SANDON, in the chair.
_Pedro de Zulueta_, jun. Esq. called in; and further examined.
10464. _Chairman._] The Committee understand that you have some further
observations to make upon the evidence which has been given with
reference to your house?--With reference to the destination of the
Augusta, from Liverpool to Gallinas, and the fact of its having put into
Cadiz unforeseen, and unpremeditated altogether, in consequence of
stress of weather, I omitted to mention a circumstance which will put
the thing beyond doubt, and it is this: an insurance was made at
Lloyd’s, from Liverpool to the Gallinas, and it is well known that, of
course, we should have forfeited the insurance by going to any other
port except from the peril of the sea, and the British consul at Cadiz
is well aware of the circumstance, because he is Lloyd’s agent there;
and therefore he had to interfere in the whole proceeding; without his
sanction nothing could have been done. We have called upon the
underwriters upon that account, and it has been paid, and which would
not have been paid without its being proved. I stated yesterday that the
transactions of my house with Pedro Martinez & Co. of the Havannah, with
Blanco & Carvalho of the Havannah, and with Pedro Martinez of Cadiz, had
amounted in the 20 years to 100,000_l._ I was afraid of overrating the
amount; but on reference to the books of the house, I find that our
transactions with them in 20 years have amounted to 400,000_l._ out of
which the 22,000_l._ that was mentioned is the whole amount of goods
that have been shipped by their order for the coast of Africa.
10465. Can you state how much of the 22,000_l._ has accrued within any
given period; is it distributed equally over the whole 20 years, or has
it grown up in the last four or five years?--In the last few years it
has decreased, but otherwise it is spread over the whole number of
years. In such a length of time it forms to our minds a mere speck. In
the last six months our transactions with the house of Pedro Martinez of
Cadiz amount to already 30,000_l._, and with Pedro Martinez of the
Havannah to nearly the same amount. With the house of Pedro Blanco & Co.
of the Havannah, the amount has been 15,000_l._ for what has passed in
the last six months, and with the houses generally at Cuba, throughout
the island, it amounts to 100,000_l._ altogether, arising entirely from
cargoes of sugar, and from tobacco, and remittances of bills from there
in carrying on banking operations, upon which they draw again, which are
negotiated in the Havannah and sent to houses in London to cash, and
remittances of drafts on the Spanish treasury at the Havannah, and bills
of lading of specie and bullion, and such things, from Mexico. I state
these things only to show the nature of our trade, and I have been
particular, because as these are large amounts I wish to show what they
arise from. Another fact escaped my attention yesterday, and it is this,
that Don Pedro Martinez is owner of several large vessels of 300 tons
and 400 tons, which are in the trade of sugar, tobacco, and such things,
with us, in England and with Cadiz.
10466. Have you bought other vessels for him than those which have been
employed in the slave trade?--Yes, decidedly so; there was the Star,
Captain Jennings. That vessel was sent from here to the Gallinas,
precisely the same as the Augusta has been sent. She delivered her
cargo; she went from thence to Cape Coast, I believe, and from there to
Madeira; she received a cargo of wheat; she came back to Spain, and she
was sold at Liverpool to a third party, not Martinez, or any body
connected with him; in fact, she was sold for very little. The object of
that vessel was just the same as the Augusta, to maintain a legal trade
with Gallinas; that is, within my own knowledge.
10467. Mr. _Aldam_.] What is the description of legal trade that was
carried on?--Sending out goods to be sold at those places, and to go to
other ports, not to carry any cargo from there to the Havannah.
10468. There has been a good deal of evidence, in which it has been
stated that no legal trade is carried on with Gallinas?--I could not say
what trade there is at the Gallinas of a legal nature, but I know that
those vessels would have taken nothing if there was nothing legal to
take, from that place to the Havannah, or to any other place; I am aware
that my answers upon this point must be deficient, because I am really
very ignorant of the trade of the West Coast of Africa.
10469. Do you suppose that the vessels would be used to carry on a legal
trade?--Most certainly I do; because persons find it worth while to send
goods there constantly. The Committee will observe, that what the
application of the goods is afterwards I cannot say, but I speak of the
fact of the vessels having gone there with the intention of returning to
the Havannah to bring a cargo of some description here, to pay a
freight, and then to go again with the same kind of goods to Africa.
10470. _Chairman._] You have stated before, that you have cleared out
for the Gallinas from Liverpool?--Yes.
10471. In carrying on operations of that kind, should you have ever
thought it necessary to exercise any disguise as to what part of Africa
you were clearing out for?--Not at all.
10472. You did not imagine, that in being the instrument of sending
lawful goods to any part of Africa you were doing any thing which
required concealment?--Nothing at all of the kind; and the proof of
that is, that in the bills of entry in Liverpool any body could see our
names as consignees of the vessel, and see entries made in our names of
every thing.
10473. Is not there a document officially published daily in London and
at Liverpool, stating the daily entries at the Custom-house of all goods
shipped, with the description of the goods, and the name of the port and
of the shipper?--Yes, there is.
10474. Is not this printed from time to time in the public papers?--It
is in general circulation; there is hardly any merchant in Liverpool or
in London who is not possessed of one. The Liverpool entries are
reprinted in London, Liverpool being such an important place of
business. The bill printed in London contains also Liverpool, Hull, and
Bristol.
10475. So that every such transaction is perfectly notorious to every
one?--Notorious to every one who chooses to read the public papers.
There is another thing which escaped me till I came into the room this
morning. As I have been in the business from my childhood, I know every
thing that is going on in it. The Arrogante, after we sold her at the
Havannah, was sent to Vera Cruz with a cargo of Spanish paper, spirits,
raisins, &c. &c., such as is sent for the South American trade, for the
purpose of breaking the blockade of Vera Cruz, which she did break and
went in. It was asked in question 7147, whether the Augusta was equipped
for the slave trade the second time; the answer was, “She was not.” I
wish to state, that before any goods were put on board of her, it was
our express wish and order that every thing in her that was fit for that
trade should be taken down, and the vessel put in the same condition as
any other merchant vessel; and we should not have loaded any thing in
her if that had not been done. It is stated in the evidence that the
Augusta was consigned to three notorious slave dealers; now we had never
in our lives heard of the name of any one of the parties to whom she was
consigned.
10476. You mean that the first time you heard their names was when the
order to ship those goods was given to you?--Yes, and the circumstance
of three consignees is a regular thing with distant consignments, such
as South America and Africa. There is such an uncertainty attending the
residence of parties in those places, that we invariably put a second
and a third consignee in addition, in case the first should not be in
the way.
10477. Mr. _Forster_.] Some bills were referred to in your former
evidence drawn by Mr. Pedro Blanco upon your house; have you any
objection to put those bills before the Committee?--Not any. And I ought
to state now, as I have been looking at the bills more closely, that
they are not all drawn to the orders of Sierra Leone houses, but to the
orders of other Spaniards, and those people endorsed them to the Sierra
Leone houses. This does not alter the case materially, but for the sake
of accuracy I mention it.
10478. You will put them in for the inspection of the
Committee?--Certainly.--(_The same were delivered in._)
10479. You only hesitated in giving the names yesterday from motives of
delicacy, not from any motive of concealment?--Yes, I do not wish to
withhold any thing, but I am indisposed to introduce any name. I have no
wish to conceal any thing whatever. I have been consulting with my
partners upon this subject, and I have a request to make to the
Committee. Our position is one which is certainly an unpleasant one. I
think that what I have stated will have proved to the satisfaction of
the Committee that we have not in any way intended to elude the law. Now
our situation is this, with reference to any future transactions we have
no valid reason to give our correspondents for not executing an order.
The Committee will have to make their report, and several gentlemen have
given their opinions as to how the law is to be altered. I, for my part,
am not competent to give any advice upon the subject, but I would only
wish that whatever law is made, it should be clear and distinct as to
what a man might to do, and what he is not to do. The trade that we have
carried on with the Gallinas, at least the shipments we have made, are
perfectly unimportant to us in itself, as is evident from the amount;
but at the same time, with regard to the correspondents that we have
accounts with, we are placed in this dilemma, that we must refuse
fulfilling their orders without giving them any valid reason, unless we
should be able to say, Sir, we cannot fulfil your order because the law
of this country prohibits that we should ship any goods that are liable
to be applied to that purpose, to persons who may at any time have had
any dealings, or are suspected of having had any dealings of that
description. To us it is indifferent which way the legislation turns
upon this subject, so long as we know what it is. But supposing it legal
for a man to ship goods to a port, are you then to be liable to have the
vessels captured, and what to us is worst of all, to be brought into a
kind of notoriety as being engaged in slave dealing, which is
exceedingly unpleasant to our feelings. That is a consideration which I
hope the Committee will look to.
10480. You wish that the law should be made clear for your guidance, to
enable you to understand what course you are to pursue with your
correspondents?--Yes, in what I have to do with them. I do not mean to
say that if a man ships goods knowingly to slave dealers, for the
purpose of being exchanged for slaves, I do not mean to say that the law
does not reach him now. My own impression is, that it might do so; at
all events the morality of the thing would be very questionable; but we
want something more than that; that is not enough. Here is my case,
which, if true, proves that we have not done any such thing, and yet we
are liable to all this unpleasantness.
10481. You want something also to plead with your correspondents, as a
reason for not complying with any order they may send?--Exactly.
10482. You feel that at the present moment the law is in an
unsatisfactory state, that doubts have been raised upon the subject,
which as merchants you are desirous of seeing quieted by some
declaration, one way or another?--I do; for instance, I may on going
home find an order; and I assure the Committee that after all that has
occurred, after all this unpleasantness upon the subject, I should be in
an awkward position. I might have to throw up my correspondents without
any valid reason, because of course goods may be shipped to them by
other parties, which I should refuse to do; and they may do it legally,
because they may send those goods to the Havannah or to any other such
place, and then my correspondents could not say that I had any valid
reason to refuse.
10483. If there were any obstruction interposed in the way of export
from this country directly to the coast of Africa, you would rather
desire that it should be at the English Custom-house, before the goods
went out, than that it should be left in uncertainty, to be decided upon
the coast of Africa?--Exactly; that is my impression. At the same time I
am not stating that that would be wise or expedient, or proper, or any
thing of the kind; but I say this simply because I do not wish it to be
brought into question that we elude the law; not that we break it,
because that would be a question before a court of justice; but before
men of honour, I do not wish to be open to the imputation of eluding the
law.
REPORT
FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE
ON THE
WEST COAST OF AFRICA.
_Martis, 22º die Martii, 1842._
_Ordered_, THAT a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the
State of the British Possessions on the West Coast of Africa, more
especially with reference to their present Relations with the
neighbouring Native Tribes.
_Mercurii, 6º die Aprilis, 1842._