To Captain the Honourable (signed) _Jno. Wade_, Lieut. R.N.
Joseph Denman, R.N.
7063. Mr. _Forster_.] As you appear to consider Sierra Leone as a
desirable place for landing and locating the liberated Africans, how do
you account for so little progress having hitherto been made in
agricultural improvement and in carrying civilization into the interior
from that part, up to the present time?--I consider that the liberated
Africans of Sierra Leone have made a wonderful advance, comparing them
with their condition when landed from the slave ships.
7064. Is it not the fact that no progress has been made in cultivation
or in planting in the neighbourhood of Sierra Leone?--No advance has
been made because there has been no inducement held out to them; but the
people have made wonderful strides, in my opinion, in civilization, and
the condition of the liberated Africans is quite extraordinary,
comparing them with the state in which they were landed, considering the
very short time that has elapsed since the first Africans were liberated
there from the slave ships.
7065. Is it not upwards of twenty years that the system has been going
on there, and would not that afford ample time for greater improvement
than is perceived there at this moment?--Considering the great numbers
that during the twenty years have been landed from the slave ships, and
their condition, I think the advance is more than could have been
expected, considering that no inducement has been held out to
agricultural pursuits.
7066. Are you acquainted with the banks of the Gambia and the land in
the neighbourhood of our settlement there?--I have been in the Gambia a
good deal; I cannot say that I have any perfect knowledge of the banks
of the river.
7067. Would you think that the Gambia affords a more desirable location
than Sierra Leone for cultivation?--I think, perhaps, for that
particular object it may, but I am not at all sure of that.
7068. _Chairman._] Sierra Leone furnishes very little exportable produce
of its own?--I am not aware that it exports any thing of its own, but
the country we are about to purchase affords means of raising produce,
if it is encouraged; I mean the Quia country.
7069. You think it desirable that the limits of the colony of Sierra
Leone should be extended?--I think undoubtedly, both up the river and
coastwise; I consider that the plans of General Turner were in the
utmost degree wise and enlightened, and it is very much to be regretted
that they were not followed up.
7070. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] When you say coastwise, do you mean north or
south?--I think south to Cape Mount, where a settlement is already
established, I would purchase the sovereignty, and establish one or two
settlements between Cape Mount and Sierra Leone.
7071. Including the Sherboro’?--Including the Sherboro’; Boom Kittam
General Turner already had. With regard to the Gambia I should wish to
observe, that to bring forth the resources of that colony a steamer on
the river is indispensably necessary, and in my opinion she would pay
her own expenses, if she were allowed to carry light goods up and down
for the merchants, as a sort of packet.
7072. _Chairman._] Would there be any difficulty in manning a steamer
almost entirely with blacks, so as to expose very little, if any, white
life to the risks attending the navigation of the river?--For the
services of colonial steamers, I believe they might be entirely manned
with black people, and in the course of a few years, even with black
engineers.
7073. Mr. _Forster_.] Are you aware that the French have two or three
steam boats generally on the Senegal?--I am aware that the French have
steamers, that they are exercising the utmost rivalry against British
commerce upon the coast, and that they derive the greatest possible
advantages over British commerce by the use of those steamers.
7074. _Chairman._] Is there any thing at present to prevent the
establishment of mercantile steamers, either at Sierra Leone or at the
Gambia, as a private venture?--As a private venture, certainly not; but
it would not be worth the while of any individuals to make the
speculation.
7075. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Are the French steamers government
steamers?--They are government steamers attached to the colony of
Senegal.
7076. _Chairman._] What sized steamers would be required for the purpose
that you contemplate?--I should say very small steamers for the Gambia
itself; as small as the London boats that run above bridge; but their
services would be required entirely for that river, and perhaps for the
Casamanza.
7077. Mr. _Forster_.] Would not a steamer on the Gambia be very
important for the Government communication with Macarthy’s Island, and
generally up the river?--It is the only way that settlements up the
river can be supported or protected in my opinion; it would have the
effect of quadrupling the force there now, and it is the only means by
which we can, in my opinion, bring out the resources of the upper parts
of the river, which are so great.
7078. _Chairman._] Is the force of the current generally so strong as to
render it extremely difficult to navigate up the stream with sailing
vessels?--It frequently takes a week or 10 days to get a good-sized
vessel up to Macarthy’s Island, where now our highest settlement is; but
we should have one still higher.
7079. You conceive that there are immense resources up the river?--I do;
I believe that a supply of gum might be obtained at the Gambia equal to
that which we have been deprived of by the French at Portendique, if
proper measures were taken. At Portendique, for the last two years,
there has been no trade at all.
7080. Mr. _Forster_.] In your former evidence, in answer to question
6674, in reference to the importance of British settlements for the
suppression of the slave trade, you say “I spoke more particularly of
Sierra Leone, at the same time the connection of the Gambia trade with
the slave trade is a fact that there is no doubt about;” are the
Committee to understand that you mean that Sierra Leone and the Gambia
are on the same footing in that respect?--I think they have assisted the
slave trade in very different ways; one way in which they have both
assisted, is by the sale of vessels to the slave dealers; but the trade
in the Gambia goes hand in hand with the slave trade of Bissao, as I
before stated; at Sierra Leone it has been more directly by the sale of
vessels, and some few goods passing down through their hands to the
Gallinas and elsewhere.
7081. Will you have the goodness to explain to the Committee your
meaning in saying that “the connection of the Gambia trade with the
slave trade is a fact that there is no doubt about”?--I should have said
the external trade of the Gambia; the trade up the river is another
thing. As regards the external trade of the Gambia, the greater part of
the trade is through the hands of notorious slave dealers, who sell
produce, and give money to the Gambia merchants, and who in return
receive goods from the Gambia; and those goods are the means again of
purchasing slaves and produce; that is a connection which I consider is
a very direct one.
7082. _Chairman._] You do not mean, that merchants trading at the Gambia
are themselves personally interested in any slave trade adventures, or
have any share in the profit or loss of such transactions?--No; I have
no reason to suppose that such is the case directly.
7083. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you mean to say that the goods so
furnished to the slave dealer are essential to the maintenance of the
slave traffic?--I believe they might get goods elsewhere, if those were
not supplied by the Gambia merchants.
7084. But still goods from some part are essential to the maintenance of
the slave traffic?--Indispensable; all their slaves are bought with
British goods.
7085. _Chairman._] Could they not obtain their slaves solely with
money?--I think not.
7086. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] What is the state of civilization of the
people upon the Gambia?--The banks of the Gambia have been disturbed for
several years by a man of the name of Kemingtang, and a great deal too
much forbearance has been used towards him. I do not think the people in
general upon the banks are in an advanced state of civilization, by any
means.
7087. Its progress has been interrupted by this man’s disturbance?--This
man has occasioned mischief, but I do not think it was making progress
to any extent.
7088. Mr. _Forster_.] You appear to distinguish between legitimate and
illegitimate trade by the mode of payment; that is to say, according to
whether the payment is in money or in produce?--I have already said
that, strictly speaking, in the strict sense of the term, “legitimate
trade,” that is, trade which has no communication with the slave trade
in any way whatever, is that in which goods are exchanged for produce.
7089. Would you recommend or expect that a trader on the coast of Africa
should refuse dollars in payment of his goods to any body?--In cases
where he knew that no use could be made of those goods but to purchase
slaves, I think he would be bound to do so; and I think if he did not he
should be subjected to the penalties of the Act.
7090. Supposing the British traders of Bissao were to refuse money from
the Spaniards, would you recommend that they should refuse money also
from the natives in exchange for their goods?--I have stated that I do
not recommend that they should refuse money from any body, except in
cases where the trade must necessarily be going on to supply the slave
trade exclusively. In cases where slave trade and produce trade exist
together, I do not think it would be possible, and I do not think it
would be desirable to endeavour to prevent the trade from going on; I
have stated that fully in the former part of my evidence.
7091. _Chairman._] You would, if possible, devise some means by which
English trade, although in lawful goods, with settlements purely
confined to slave trading, such as the Gallinas, should be
prevented?--Precisely; that is my view.
7092. As long as the prize vessels are sold at Sierra Leone, will there
not be great practical difficulty in preventing those vessels getting
ultimately into the hands of the slave dealers, whether you can prevent
it at the first hand or not?--I think the longer the interval that
elapsed before they got into the hands of the slave dealers, the better.
I think that British subjects selling vessels adapted only for the slave
trade into the hands of notorious slave dealers, should be rendered
subject to penalties; but I admit the difficulty of preventing the
eventual return of such vessels into the hands of slave dealers.
7093. You think it very desirable, if possible, that the system of
breaking up vessels should be further extended?--I think it should be
applied universally to slave ships.
7094. Is there any English law which you would wish to see amended in
that respect?--Under the Act 5 Geo. 4, under which a vessel in British
waters would be condemned for carrying on the slave trade, there is no
provision for breaking up the vessel; and consequently vessels condemned
under that Act are sold to the highest bidder. I certainly think it is
desirable that a clause should be inserted in the act for the purpose.
7095. Mr. _Forster_.] You have stated in your former evidence that the
public auctioneer is obliged to knock down the vessel to the highest
bidder. Would you recommend that the public auctioneer should be subject
to penalties for selling a vessel to the agent of a slave dealer?--I
have before stated that he is not subject to penalties; he is a
Government agent employed according to law.
7096. Captain _Fitzroy_.] You have stated that the cruizers should be
withdrawn from the western coast of the Atlantic, their efforts against
the slave trade there being comparatively ineffectual. Can you give any
further reason for that opinion than the one you have expressed?--The
cruizers upon the coast of Cuba or Brazil, cruize under much greater
disadvantages than they formerly did upon the coast of Africa, before
the Equipment articles came into force; and moreover, the immense number
of merchant vessels always in sight about those parts of the coast is, I
think, another reason against attempting to suppress the slave trade
upon that side of the Atlantic. And there is besides another subject of
greatly increased importance, the inconvenience that would arise from
the exercise of the right of search in that quarter.
7097. _Chairman._] You mean to say, that in consequence of coming into
contact with a much greater number of vessels of different descriptions,
the right of search, if exercised there, would be more obnoxious, and
lead to greater difficulties with the countries upon whose vessels we
should exercise it?--It could never be fully exercised with regard to
the vessels that were there, and the exercise of it would involve 50
searches for one upon the coast of Africa.
7098. In the one case you only have to search the African trade, in the
other case you have to search the whole trade of those countries on the
American coast?--Yes.
7099. Captain _Fitzroy_.] You have stated the disproportion between the
emolument derived by the captains of cruizers from the capture of
slavers after the embarkation of the slaves, compared with that derived
from the capture of empty vessels, to be very great, and altogether
unjust; can you give the Committee any further information upon this
subject?--I have here an account of two vessels, captured under the
Equipment articles by me, one measuring 57 tons and the other 43 tons;
the aggregate of the proceeds of both these vessels for distribution to
the captors was 576_l._ 6_s._ 5_d._ Another vessel of 48 tons was
captured by me, with slaves on board; the proceeds for distribution upon
this single vessel amounted to 1,654_l._ 19_s._ 5_d._, nearly three
times as much as the two empty ships, measuring together 100 tons.
7100. _Chairman._] Can you state how many slaves could have been carried
by the two empty ships, in case they had been allowed to have been
filled?--There might have been 700 slaves in those two ships.
7101. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] How many were there in the
other?--Forty-eight tons and 350 slaves. With regard to the capture of
these vessels, the empty vessels were captured upon the principle of
blockade, a service of the most harassing, tiresome, and arduous
description. The full vessel was, as it must be in most cases, captured
by chance.
7102. How would you propose to arrange it?--I would take the whole of
the sums payable upon captured vessels during any given year, and upon
that I would calculate what it amounted to per ton, and I would give
that bounty for the future upon every vessel, as a substitute for the
head-money, for the payments now made.
7103. Captain _Fitzroy_.] You have stated in your former evidence, that,
six weeks after you were at New Cestos destroying the slave factory, a
slaver was there again; can you offer any explanation of that
circumstance?--The slave factory at New Cestos was abandoned in December
1840. The factories were left standing, to form a palm-oil factory, at
the request of some British traders. I however understood that the
prince was endeavouring to get a slave-dealer to re-establish himself in
this factory, and I therefore, in the middle of April, burned down the
buildings. On the 8th of June a new factor arrived from the Havannah and
landed his goods, but no slaves were taken away till October. Three or
four days after the slaves were carried off the blockade was
re-established, and there could be no more.
7104. It has been stated, in answer to question 5968, that you thought
you had put an effectual stop to the slave trade at the Gallinas by the
destruction of the factories; was that your own opinion?--I beg to refer
the Committee to the third paragraph from the bottom of a letter in the
correspondence relative to the Gallinas, at page 9, in which I state
that “I believe they will endeavour still to prosecute the slave trade.”
7105. Mr. _Forster_.] Is it your opinion that the British traders on the
coast of Africa, and those connected with them, are more deeply
interested in the suppression of the slave trade than any other class of
British subjects?--In general they are; but there are some instances in
which particular merchants derive great advantages from the connexion.
There can be no question that it is for the interests of commerce that
the slave trade should be put down; but there may be particular
instances where British merchants derive great profits from their
connexion with it.
7106. But generally, you are of opinion that the British merchants are
decidedly interested in the trade being put down?--I have no doubt of it
at all.
7107. _Chairman._] You believe that wherever the trade in slaves is put
down, a more profitable trade might be carried on in its place in the
form of manufactures in exchange for produce?--Undoubtedly more
profitable, both to the natives and to the persons trading with them.
7108. When you speak of individuals being interested, you mean that
there are individuals incidentally benefited by the commerce which the
slave trade gives rise to in that country?--Precisely; that is what I
mean. For instance, supposing the slave traders at the Gallinas had been
supplied by a British commercial house, that probably would have been
more profitable to them than any prospect of produce trade after the
slave trade of the Gallinas was destroyed.
_Lunæ, 25º die Julii, 1842._