Be it known to you and all other officers commanding Her Majesty’s
vessels cruizing on this part of Africa, particularly off Sea Bar,
that we the undermentioned gentlemen of this country, do with the
greatest honour to you and all Her Majesty’s subjects, do relate and
acquaint you of our poor late and respected father, Mr. James Tucker,
chief of this country, which I have no doubt the Government knows the
same, as he told them when they consulted together with Messrs.
Rendall, Macauley, Campbell, and several other gentlemen of the colony
of Sierra Leone, when with intention to put him under the controul of
the English laws, but which he did not consent to, stating that it was
his living throughout all his ancient family, and he had no other
means for his livelyhood, yes certainly the inhabitants of the colony
of Sierra Leone trade in this river, but their trade is no profit nor
benefit to us in this country, although they receive a great
assistance from this country, but however we have received
intelligence from the Gallinas that you the subject of Her Majesty’s
have burnt and destroyed all the Spanish factories in that country,
and that it is your intention coming down here at Sea Bar, and will
act the same here as have done with Gallinas, so therefore we the
under gentlemen of this country do beg and warn you with the greatest
friendship towards Her Majesty’s subjects to acquaint you that this
part of the country is very different with the Gallinas, as the land
is our and all the standing property and building is belonging to us,
and in case they should be destroyed and burnt down on account of
foreigners, it cannot be an injury to them, but to us in the country;
we very knows that it is a law between the different nations of Europe
for diminishing that traffic, but however it dont concern with us as
they comes to us, if you meet them outside to sea, but coming in the
rivers and destroying places, so therefore hearing such news from Her
Majesty’s subjects about this country and taking as friends, and if
you coming on any purpose you dont let us know in the country and burn
any place belonging to us; as we do honour the English colour for fear
of coming in such a manner, perhaps some of our subjects might do what
may be an insult to the English flag, and we dont wish such a thing to
be between us, so therefore we beg you all to allow us the liberty of
relating to you the aforementioned laws of this country, and hoping it
will not be an offence to you.
We remain, &c.
Tessana Town, } _Henry Tucker._
2 December 1840. } _Johnny Tucker._
} _Jack Tucker._
6813. _Chairman._] Did you have intercourse with those chiefs after that
letter?--No, I did not. The rainy season was coming on, and I was
compelled to go to another part of my station.
6814. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Did Governor Doherty make a requisition to
you, that you should take those measures with respect to the Gallinas
which you have described?--The only requisition from Governor Doherty to
me was, to recover the woman and her child, who had been made slaves of
by Prince Manna.
6815. Did Governor Doherty express himself satisfied, or otherwise, with
the result of your expedition to the Gallinas?--In the first letter in
the correspondence before the Committee, a despatch to Lord John
Russell, Governor Doherty expresses, in the strongest way, his
satisfaction.
6816. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Having received the approbation of the local
government near the scene of your exploit, have you also received any
expression of approbation on the part of Her Majesty’s Government,
either on the part of the Colonial-office, or of the Admiralty, or of
both?--The Colonial Secretary and the Foreign Secretary both expressed,
in the strongest terms, their approbation of my proceedings. My
despatches to the Admiralty did not arrive till the middle of July. They
had, however, previously approved of my conduct, although they had
declared that they could not entertain the question with reference to
promotion, as the despatches had not come to them. The despatches sent
through the senior officer arrived at the Admiralty in July, and I was
promoted in August.
6817. Were you promoted by the Admiralty with reference to those
services?--No, I cannot say that; I think they may also have considered
that as affording some claim, from the tone of letters which I have
seen, not addressed to myself, by the Foreign and the Colonial
Secretaries.
6818. But the approbation of the Colonial Secretary and of the Foreign
Secretary was absolute?--It was absolute.
6819. And the approbation of the Admiralty may be inferred from the fact
of your promotion?--That approbation was expressed, in the first
instance, by them before they received the despatches, from what had
appeared before Parliament.
6820. Mr. _Aldam_.] Has the Admiralty issued orders for other officers
in similar cases to follow the same course?--I think the Admiralty has
done so.
6821. Mr. _Forster_.] You wish the Committee distinctly to understand
that you think such means as you resorted to would not have the effect
of offering a bad example to the native chiefs, which they might
imitate, and under some pretext or other to seize upon British
property?--I think not; I think no example in the natives engaged in the
slave trade can possibly make them worse than they are while such
traffic is there pursued, nor is there a possibility of improvement
until it is stopped.
6822. You think that, when the slave trade is once put down, British
settlements planted at the parts where it has been carried on will keep
it down?--I think eventually legitimate trade will keep it down; I do
not limit it to British settlements only, although British settlements
would undoubtedly have a good effect for that object.
6823. Then if a British settlement had been founded at the Gallinas on
the completion of your operations there, you think the slave trade would
have been permanently suppressed?--Undoubtedly I think so, if founded on
good principles.
6824. In your last examination you spoke in terms of strong condemnation
of the traders upon the coast having any commercial dealings with
persons suspected of being engaged in the slave trade; now, without
requiring from a naval commander an intimate or practical knowledge of
the principles of commerce, it may nevertheless be reasonable to ask
you, after the strong opinions you have expressed, how British trade in
Africa could possibly be successfully carried on in competition with
foreigners under any restrictions such as you have pointed at?--The
restriction that I recommend is, that there should be such a change in
the law as to enable us to seize and to condemn any vessel that trades
with a notorious slave factory, there being no other trade but the slave
trade there prosecuted; also, against the supply of slave ships with
goods for the purposes of their traffic, and also against the sale of
vessels calculated for the slave trade to slave dealers. In my opinion,
those three practices should be stopped.
6825. Do you know Senor Caetano, at the Bissao?--I know who he is, well.
6826. You have stated in your former evidence, that Senor Caetano dealt
both in produce and in slaves; how would you act in his case?--I have
stated that it would be impossible to distinguish in such cases.
6827. You are aware that slavery and slave dealing are extensively
carried on in Cuba?--Undoubtedly; the slave trade to a much diminished
extent of late.
6828. And you are aware that it is equally the case in Brazil?--I am
aware that it is also the case in the Brazils.
6829. And also in the southern states of the North American Union?--I
have no reason to believe that any slave trade whatever exists there,
except the slave trade from one part of the coast to another; I believe
that no new slaves are introduced.
6830. Are you aware that they buy and sell slaves throughout the
southern states of the Union?--Yes; I am speaking of the external slave
trade; slavery implies the right of selling slaves within their
territory; I mean that they have no external slave trade, to the best of
my belief.
6831. Do you draw any distinction between slaves sold and shipped from
Virginia to New Orleans, as compared with slaves shipped from the coast
of Africa?--Unquestionably; they were at Virginia in the same condition
as they are again at New Orleans; it is merely a change of locality in
the same country or state, quite distinct from the African slave trade.
6832. Are the slaves shipped from the coast of Africa in the same
condition in the West Indies as they were in previously to their being
shipped from the coast of Africa?--No, decidedly they are not; they are
in a very different condition in Africa from what they are in the West
Indies; they are not equally slaves; their condition is entirely
different. The whole bearing and meaning of the trade is as different as
possible, in my opinion.
6833. Do you draw any distinction, in a moral point of view, between
selling and shipping men from the state of Virginia to the Mississippi,
as compared with selling and shipping men from Africa to the West
Indies?--I consider the case is altogether different; as distinct as
possible.
6834. Do you consider that there is any difference in a moral point of
view?--Yes, I think there is a difference in a moral point of view. In
my opinion, the distinction between commerce with slave states in
America and commerce with slave factories in Africa is this: the
commerce with the slave factories in Africa, in the cases I have before
contemplated, goes there entirely for the purpose of purchasing and
making men slaves: the commerce with the slave states of America has no
such tendency whatever; the slaves are already property. In my opinion,
there is the broadest distinction between the cases.
6835. Then you disapprove of selling goods to persons connected with the
slave trade on the coast of Africa, not on account of the moral
difference of the act, but on account of the difference of the tendency
and consequences of that act?--I consider that, in every case, the
dealings of British merchants with slave dealers, although their produce
trade may be mixed with the slave trade, is, in a very high degree,
objectionable and improper; but, at the same time, I do not think that
we can separate them; I do not think it would be politic, or for the
benefit of Africa, or for the cause that England has in hand, to
endeavour to carry the distinction between them too far.
6836. But if it be wrong or immoral to have dealings with persons
engaged in the slave trade, is it not equally wrong for a British
merchant to ship and sell goods to a slave merchant in Cuba and Brazil,
as it is to sell goods to a slave dealer on the coast of Africa, so far
as the moral question is concerned?--I think so, decidedly, supposing
those goods are intended to go into the slave trade, and it is known
that they will go into the slave trade.
6837. Are you not aware, from your observation on the coast, that most
of the goods, if not all, the cotton goods in particular, brought to the
coast of Africa by Spanish and Portuguese slave dealers, are
manufactured in this country?--I am perfectly aware of it; I consider
this highly objectionable, in the same way as the mixed trade upon the
coast is; but I do not think it would be wise to interfere with it.
6838. The Committee cannot but highly appreciate and deeply sympathise
with your benevolent feelings on this subject; but do you consider
yourself sufficiently familiar with the searching effects of commerce,
to pronounce a sound opinion on the collateral tendency of trade to
supersede the slave trade on the coast of Africa, even when carried on
with persons connected with the slave trade?--I consider myself
perfectly qualified to give opinions, so far as I have given them. The
opinions I have given, I feel myself perfectly qualified to give, and to
support.
6839. _Chairman._] You do not see any indirect advantage in dealing with
persons solely engaged in the slave trade, by means of lawful goods,
sufficient to counterbalance the direct evil of the facilities given by
that means to the slave trade?--The case of the Gallinas, I think, is a
perfect answer to the question; no good whatever is derived from the
exchange of the commodities of the civilized world for slaves. There is
no export of produce in that district of the coast. I conceive that this
commerce has no good effect whatever.
6840. You think it promotes no industry?--On the contrary, it
annihilates it.
6841. Mr. _Forster_.] You have stated that there has been no British
commerce carried on there to any extent?--In the Return which I have
already referred to, in the 14th page of this correspondence, is given
an account of the trade which formerly did exist, and which, under the
withering influence of the slave trade, has been utterly destroyed.
There is no doubt that there was considerable export trade at one time
from the Gallinas; they exported rice, and they exported produce. Now
they are obliged to import rice to feed themselves; cattle, which were
formerly abundant, are now hardly to be procured, and then only at an
enormous expense. They used to get cattle from Sierra Leone. Indeed, the
only case I know of any communication with Sierra Leone, while I was
last on the coast, was, in one or two instances of very small boats, not
above six or seven tons, which had in one instance cattle and sheep on
board. In the second instance I did not search her.
6842. You have stated that the Gallinas has been principally supplied
with goods for the slave trade by foreign ships, and not by British
traders?--That has been my statement.
6843. You have stated also that you would have felt it your duty to
prevent English trading vessels entering there?--Under certain
circumstances, which I have detailed.
6844. Are you not of opinion that if British commerce had been
encouraged there, and more particularly if a British settlement had been
formed there, British commerce would have been of material assistance in
discountenancing and putting down the slave trade at the
Gallinas?--Legitimate commerce at the Gallinas has been eradicated and
annihilated by the sole influence of the slave trade. It existed there,
and the slave trade annihilated it. Had a British settlement been formed
there, the results might have been different.
6845. _Chairman._] Do you think the results would have been different if
the same goods had been brought by English ships carrying on the same
trade as the foreign ships?--I do not see, had they been brought in the
same way as the goods were brought in the foreign ships, how any
difference would have been made. It would have been the same unmixed
evil as it has been when carried on under the American flag.
6846. Mr. _Forster._] Then it is only by the formation of British
settlements that you think the advantages of British commerce could be
fully realized there?--I think the advantages of legitimate commerce
will commence when they make their minds up that the slave trade will no
longer supply them with what they have been hitherto accustomed to
receive, and that that might be further assisted by the formation of a
settlement, I have no doubt whatever.
6847. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Have you any means of knowing how the slaves
in the barracoons at the Gallinas were procured for the slave market;
whether they were born in slavery, or were made slaves for the mere
purpose of sale?--The fact that the general system of society in Africa
is slavery, I believe is universally admitted. Those people were
brought down from the interior to meet the demand upon the coast.
6848. Do you mean the Committee to understand that in your opinion they
were born slaves, and brought up to the slave market, or that, having
been free, they were made slaves for the slave market?--In my opinion
they were all born in a state of domestic slavery, answering to a sort
of villeinage in the early periods of our own history. But my belief is,
that no African chief dare sell his domestic slaves in this way, except
occasionally under the pretence of crimes committed, or of debts owing;
they are generally, I fancy, either kidnapped or taken in wars, or in
the ways I before mentioned.
6849. The kidnapping and the wars being for the purpose of supplying the
slave market?--Undoubtedly, in my opinion.
6850. _Chairman._] Do you derive your information of the internal
condition of the Africans from investigations of your own, or from what
you have read?--Partly from inquiries I made while in shore at the
Gallinas and up the Nunez.
6851. You do not believe that, generally speaking, the chiefs, the
owners of slaves in Africa, have the right of selling their own
slaves?--By no means; I believe they dare not do it; that the population
would at once rise against it.
6852. Mr. _Aldam_.] Do you consider that the slaves are generally
prisoners taken in wars that have incidentally arisen, or that there are
wars carried on for the purpose of making slaves?--I believe both to a
great extent; I believe that wars are frequently begun for the purpose
of taking prisoners and making slaves, and frequently by agreement
between two chiefs, who dare not sell their own people. They go to war
in order to take each other’s people.
6853. Mr. _Forster_.] Did you hear of instances of that kind while you
were in the country?--I have heard statements of that kind from persons
conversant with the country up the rivers, and also from the natives.
6854. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Referring to the letter which you have
produced from the chiefs of Sea-bar, was that letter written by a
native?--It was written undoubtedly by a negro, whether a native of
Sierra Leone, trading to Sea-bar, or whether one of the chiefs there, I
cannot say; but I have seen natives write infinitely better than that.
6855. It is signed by Henry Tucker; who was that Henry Tucker?--He was
one of the chiefs of the country in the neighbourhood of Sea-bar; they
are a family who have dominion there.
6856. Was that chief, Tucker, educated at Sierra Leone?--I cannot say; I
believe he was, but I am not sure about it.
6857. (To Captain _Hill_.) Are you aware by whom that letter was
written?--I was at Sea-bar frequently, and have frequently seen Harry
Tucker, and have also seen a person whom he introduced to me as his
secretary, who, on conversation, I ascertained to be Harry Tucker’s son,
and this son was writing letters for him; and I asked his son where he
learned to write, and he told me that he was educated at Sierra Leone;
and Harry Tucker also told me, that he sent two or three of his sons to
Sierra Leone to learn to read and write.
6858. Then, it is your belief that that letter was written by a son of a
native chief, who was educated at Sierra Leone?--Yes.
6859. Mr. _Aldam_, to Captain _Denman_.] Where is Sea-bar?--It lies
between Sierra Leone and Gallinas. It is the passage between the
south-eastern end of the Sherboro’ Island and the main land.
6860. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Is “Sea-bar,” the place named in the letter,
the same as the River “Shebar,” in the map?--It is the same.
6861. Mr. _Hamilton_.] Had you any opportunity of making any observation
as to the climate of the Gallinas; how far it would be fit for Europeans
to live there?--As far as my observations went, they were rather
favourable, for I went in at not a very good time of the year, and, out
of upwards of 100 men, I think that only two or three deaths occurred. I
believe only two men died after having been on shore a week.
6862. Going up in the boats?--Yes.
6863. Is the ground swampy, or is there any high ground in the
neighbourhood?--The ground is rather low, but some of the islands are as
healthy as any of that part of Africa; indeed, the contrast between that
river and some of the rivers we afterwards went up, at a more favourable
season, was remarkable.
6864. Mr. _Milnes_.] Did you not fall in with a vessel called the Echo,
bringing a cargo of goods to the Coast of Africa?--I did, a Hamburgh
vessel; I think it was on the 11th of December.
6865. Had you any reason to suspect her of having any connexion with the
slave trade?--The officer who was sent on board her found that her cargo
was consigned from the Havannah, I think from Charles Tyng to Mr. Canôt,
a slave dealer at New Cestos, and she had also on board a Spanish
supercargo, affording strong ground for suspecting her, indeed proof,
that she was engaged in aiding and abetting the slave trade.
6866. Do you regard any commerce in which ships might be engaged with a
slave factory as necessarily abetting the slave trade?--Not all
commerce; but I consider that if she were sailing with goods consigned
from one slave dealer to another she would be aiding and abetting the
slave trade.
6867. _Chairman._] You mean that there could be no doubt of the guilty
intent of the parties?--There could be no doubt of the guilty intent of
the parties to aid and abet the slave trade.
6868. Mr. _Forster_.] Are you of an opinion that a Hamburgh vessel could
not lawfully enter into a charter-party to the Havannah, to convey goods
to a slave factory on the coast of Africa?--I think that where a
Hamburgh vessel is carrying a cargo under the same circumstances I have
described, it forms the strongest reason to suspect that she may be
doing still worse.
6869. Mr. _Milnes_.] You searched that Hamburgh vessel?--Upon the 11th
of December; it was late in the evening when I boarded her. The officer
returned to me, reporting after a very imperfect search, indeed after
no search, that he found on board nothing to condemn her, and that he
had given a certificate to that effect.
6870. Do you think that that certificate was prematurely given?--No,
that the search that I had to institute was under the treaty, and
therefore I considered her entitled to a certificate, although I
certainly intended, if I fell in with her again, to search her more
perfectly, as I was not satisfied upon the subject; all I could say then
was, that nothing was found.
6871. What time did the first search take?--It was not a search, it was
a visit; it did not amount to a search; it was a visit to the ship, and
some little examination, perhaps lifting the hatches; it was in one
sense a search, but a most imperfect search; it did not occupy above
half an hour.
6872. Did you afterwards see Mr. Canôt, upon the subject of that
vessel?--I afterwards saw Mr. Canôt, not upon the subject of that
vessel; he mentioned to me that he expected a vessel with a cargo.
6873. Under what circumstances did you search the Echo a second
time?--Upon our arrival at New Cestos, considering her exposed to the
worst suspicions, after I found that she was consigned to Mr. Canôt, I
caused a most perfect search to be instituted; the hold was cleared, and
she was thoroughly searched for slave equipments. It should be observed,
that the right of search is never carried to anything like this extent,
except in cases justifying the strongest suspicion.
6874. How long did that search take?--I think from the 15th to the 18th
of December.
6875. Were you then satisfied by the result of that search that there
were no grounds for seizing the Echo?--I certainly found nothing, in my
opinion, to convict her; at that time there was nothing detected on
board her to warrant detention; had there been, I should have detained
her of course.
6876. Did you or your master entrust to the captain of the Echo certain
captured Spaniards, to take to the Havannah?--When I was about to sail
from New Cestos, I allowed a prize crew of Spaniards, who had been
captured in a prize, to go on board this vessel, to endeavour to get a
passage back to their own country.
6877. Did you use any persuasion to Captain Soms to call at Sierra
Leone, as he states in the papers you have seen?--I never was on board
her in the first place, and I never saw Captain Soms; in the second
place, the master, on returning on board the Wanderer, told me, that he
had advised the captain of the Echo to go to Sierra Leone with the view
of getting passengers; subsequently, when I heard that the vessel was
captured, I recollect distinctly saying to the master, “Oh, they will
think you have betrayed them into the hands of the Sierra Leone
government.” The advice was given without my authority, and without my
knowledge until afterwards; but I saw no harm in the advice.
6878. Could the Echo have incurred any culpability with regard to the
slave trade between the time when you examined her and her seizure at
Sierra Leone?--Very possibly.
6879. How?--She might have entered into an arrangement to carry away a
cargo of slaves from another part of the coast; she might have equipped
herself for slave dealing; it does not at all follow because she was
apparently free from liability to capture when I was on board her, that
she should not have done something subsequently that rendered her so.
6880. You do not consider your having declared her to be innocent to be
a sufficient ground for saying that she was not guilty at Sierra Leone
at a subsequent period?--It was certainly no sort of guarantee against
the consequences of any future proceedings that she might choose to
take.
6881. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] It was not either a retrospective or a
prospective guarantee; it was a guarantee only that on the 11th of
December, when you visited her, she at that time had no _primâ facie_
evidence of being engaged in the slave trade; is that your impression
upon the subject?--It was no particular guarantee, but it was a
certificate which the treaties, under the authority of which I searched
her, declared that I was to furnish her with; it was a certificate to
the effect that the treaty required.
6882. _Chairman._] Was that certificate a security to her against any
further search by any other man-of-war on the station?--It would
probably operate against any further search, because they would not take
the trouble to do it unless they had some new reason to suspect her;
they would have no wish to cause unnecessary vexation.
6883. Is the certificate intended, in your view, to operate as a
security against further trouble?--I think there are two motives for the
certificate; one is, that there may be no concealment as to the ship
which may have committed any wrong in the exercise of the right of
search upon her; and secondly, to act as a sort of certificate with
regard to others that may fall in with her; but if others have reason
still to doubt her, in spite of that certificate, they are perfectly at
liberty to search her again.
6884. Did you hear what became of the Echo afterwards?--I did not hear
of her detention at Sierra Leone until the end of March, I think the
28th of March; I visited Sierra Leone a few days after I had boarded
her, but before her arrival.
6885. Did you not hear that she was condemned?--I heard that she was
condemned.
6886. Upon what ground?--My knowledge upon the subject is merely
hearsay; all that I know is, that an officer of the Wanderer was at
Sierra Leone, and I mention it in order to show that Sir John Jeremie
was not moved by interested motives in seizing her, he was anxious that
this officer should seize her as a prize to the Wanderer.
6887. Has the Governor any interest in seizures?--He has a proportion of
the proceeds.
6888. Mr. _Forster_.] And he would be entitled to a proportion of the
proceeds of the Echo when condemned at Sierra Leone?--Yes.
6889. Mr. _Milnes_.] Did you ever fall in with any other Hamburgh vessel
engaged in abetting the slave trade?--I fell in once with the Argus, at
the Gallinas, when she was landing casks. I considered that a
suspicious circumstance, although one not warranting seizure. I never
met with any other.
6890. Have you ever heard that eight or any other number of Hamburgh
vessels had proceeded from Hamburgh for the purpose of abetting the
slave trade, or being engaged in it?--I think decidedly not.
6891. Mr. _Forster_.] If the Echo had been an English vessel, would you
have seized her under the circumstances in which you found the
Echo?--Undoubtedly, under the circumstances of the trade which she was
carrying on.
6892. Mr. _Milnes_.] Do you mean after the first or after the second
search?--The search told nothing. It was the fact of her carrying goods
from one slave dealer to another, with a Spanish supercargo on board,
that would have proved to me that she was aiding and abetting the slave
trade.
6893. Would you have seized her upon the knowledge of that fact
alone?--Undoubtedly, if she had been an English vessel.
6894. _Chairman._] But being a foreign vessel, you did not think that
ground sufficient to act upon?--Being a foreign vessel, I could not
apply the English laws to her case. I could only apply the treaty to her
case, and I held that according to the treaty only equipment would
warrant a seizure, or slaves.
6895. Mr. _Milnes_.] Would you have had a right to seize that ship under
those circumstances simply from the fact of her having a foreign
supercargo?--Not upon that fact, but upon the fact of her carrying goods
from one slave dealer to another slave dealer to buy slaves with.
6896. How do you know that it was to buy slaves with?--From the fact of
their being both engaged in the slave trade.
6897. Was Mr. Canôt at that time avowedly engaged in the slave
trade?--Mr. Canôt had, a very few days before the arrival of the Echo,
given up all his slaves and abandoned the slave trade. It was a mere
accidental circumstance their finding that Mr. Canôt was not then
carrying on the slave trade.
6898. _Chairman._] They were consigned to him under the expectation that
he was a slave dealer?--At the time the consignment took place he was a
slave dealer, and no one at that time could have contemplated so sudden
a change on his part.
6899. Mr. _Milnes_.] But at the time the Echo was there, Mr. Canôt was
not engaged in the slave trade, and was under British protection?--Mr.
Canôt had, a few days before, given up his slaves and abandoned the
slave trade.
6900. But the parties who chartered the Echo could not have been aware
of that fact?--They could not possibly have been aware of that fact.
6901. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Mr. Canôt was known to be concerned in the
slave trade at the time the consignment was made?--Perfectly.
6902. Mr. _Forster_.] You do not think that Mr. Canôt in abandoning the
slave trade, was at all influenced by the prospective arrival of this
vessel, with a view to possessing himself of the cargo?--I do not see
how he could have been influenced by that; because, under the
circumstances, I could not have seized her, whether he had been carrying
on the slave trade or not. On the other hand, although he had turned
from the slave trade, yet, had I found any equipment upon her, I should
have seized her. It made no difference whatever.
6903. Did he immediately avail himself of the services of the British
squadron to remove the goods from New Cestos, the place to which they
were consigned, to Monrovia?--It would be necessary to explain what had
taken place at New Cestos with reference to Mr. Canôt, to understand
what took place with respect to those goods. Mr. Canôt, on the 8th of
December, voluntarily delivered his slaves to Lieutenant Seagram,
commanding H. M. S. Termagant, stationed by me to blockade the place.
Lieutenant Seagram then sailed, to land those slaves at Sierra Leone,
carrying with him reports upon the subject for my information. I met at
New Cestos his boats, and not having received any information from him,
but only from the officer in charge of the boats, verbally, I left an
order for him to the following effect: that if he was persuaded of Mr.
Canôt’s integrity of purpose, and provided the slave trade was at an
end, he was to afford him convenience and protection, and to assist him
in establishing a factory for Redman & Co. at Cape Mount. After my
departure, the goods consigned to Mr. Canôt were, I believe, landed at
his factory, the supercargo being on board, and ready to object if there
was any thing improper about it; and they were subsequently, according
to the orders I had left, protected by Lieutenant Seagram, when embarked
from the beach, the natives showing every disposition to resist the
departure of Mr. Canôt.
6904. Mr. _Milnes_.] Did you hear any thing at Sierra Leone about a
buoy, in which the papers of the Echo were said to have been
concealed?--I saw a buoy at the registrar’s office, at the
Vice-Admiralty Court, which was hollowed out with a scuttle, and I was
told that the papers had been concealed in this buoy. I should state,
that on searching the Echo, there was no search for papers, because
papers under the treaty with Hamburgh would not have been sufficient to
condemn her. Equipments were what I searched for.
6905. Would any papers that you could have found have been sufficient to
condemn her under the treaty with Hamburgh?--Had I found papers
distinctly proving that she was intended to take slaves, I should have
taken upon myself the responsibility of sending her to Hamburgh for
trial, according to the treaty; because, although not according to the
letter of the treaty, I believe the spirit of the Hamburgh treaty is
entirely true and just, and I believe it would have been enforced.
6906. Would any papers found upon her in British waters cause her to be
condemned, which would not cause her to be condemned if found in other
waters?--Papers found upon her in British waters, proving her to be
engaged in the slave trade, might certainly condemn her under our laws,
as coming under our jurisdiction.
6907. Mr. _Forster_.] Did the registrar inform you that the hollow place
in the buoy was intended to conceal papers, or that papers were found
concealed in it?--He told me that papers had been concealed in it. He
did not say that they had been found there, but that it had been used
for that purpose.
6908. Did he say that papers of that nature had been found in it at
Sierra Leone?--No, I think not.
6909. Mr. _Milnes_.] Have you known many instances of the crews of
men-of-war boats remaining on board during a search of that kind, and
conducting themselves improperly, taking articles out of the cargo for
their own use?--Extremely rarely. In this instance I am aware that some
of my ship’s company misbehaved themselves; but they, well knowing the
punishment that awaited them, managed to desert.
6910. Did you order the return of the goods which they had taken?--There
were no goods taken; I believe there was a bottle or two of champagne
drunk.
6911. Did you order the men for punishment?--The men escaped; the master
did not bring them back with him. They both died shortly afterwards, or
rather one died and the other one was very badly wounded in the
Termagant’s boats, and never returned to the Wanderer.
6912. Is it not very difficult to prevent the men from committing those
abuses?--I think not when the officers are strictly vigilant; but upon
this occasion Mr. Elliott had been induced to go on shore by some
representations of Mr. Canôt, who wished to prove to him that his
intentions were honest and upright as regarded his abandonment of the
slave trade; and that accounted for it.
6913. Were the men left by themselves?--No, they were not; there were
the officers of the Termagant employed also, in whose charge they were
left.
6914. Mr. _Forster_.] What means do you suppose the master of the Echo
would have at the Havannah of knowing the character and pursuits of Mr.
Canôt, to whom he was consigned upon the charter-party?--If he had made
the smallest inquiry, he could not have been in doubt for a moment.
6915. Where should he have made inquiry?--In the Havannah; Mr. Canôt was
as well known in the Havannah as Pedro Blanco himself.
6916. Is it the duty of a merchant captain in search of trade at a
foreign port to make inquiries as to the character and pursuits of his
consignee in another country?--Applying it to an English captain, I
should say that he was just as much bound to ascertain that he was not
engaged in the slave trade as an apothecary, when he sells arsenic, is
bound, as far as in him lies, to ascertain that it is not intended to
poison any body.
6917. Mr. _Milnes_.] Is it common for a ship to be condemned, and for
the captain at the same time to be declared not guilty of aiding and
abetting in the slave trade?--It occurs frequently, upon the very
principle of the difficulty of proof of the individual being wilfully
and knowingly engaged in the slave trade.
6918. Is it supposed that a vessel can be engaged in the slave trade
without the cognizance of the captain?--Engaged in the slave trade
indirectly, as the Hamburgh ship, the Echo, was, I think is possible; it
is very unlikely.
6919. You would say generally, that where the ship was condemned and the
captain escaped, it was through some want of legal proof?--Through the
want of bringing home the proof of his having actual knowledge of the
tendency of the trade in which he was engaged.
6920. _Chairman._] Upon whom would the loss fall of the condemnation of
the ship?--Upon the owners of the ship.
6921. The owners being in Hamburgh?--The owners being in Hamburgh.
6922. What control would they have over their ship in the Havannah,
except through the medium of the captain?--They might have an agent
there, who might be ordered to allow her to be taken up for freight to
any part of the world, and who might send the goods on board; and the
master might not know what part of Africa he was going to till the
moment before he loosed sails.
6923. But a guilty knowledge on the part of some party is necessary to
the condemnation of the vessel, is it not?--Yes, it is.
6924. In such cases as those, would the articles have nothing on the
face of them in the character of equipment, to serve the purposes of the
slave trade?--Not necessarily.
6925. Where can the guilty knowledge reside which shall condemn the
vessel and the goods consigned, if the captain is supposed not to have
possessed it?--The guilty knowledge, in my opinion, might be presumed.
It is the duty of owners to take care that their ships are not turned
into pirates or into smugglers, and if they are turned into smugglers or
pirates, they must take the consequences; and so if they break other
laws I conceive.
6926. Mr. _Milnes_.] Do you know other instances of ships being
condemned, and the captains acquitted?--Yes; the Augusta, captured by
Captain Hill, was a case of that description.
6927. Mr. _Forster_.] Is it not equally an offence on the part of the
captain?--Undoubtedly so, if a guilty knowledge can be proved against
him.
6928. You cannot prove a guilty knowledge in the case of the ship?--I
think you may be able to show that the persons owning the ship or acting
as agent for the owners may have had a guilty knowledge, where the
master had no guilty knowledge.
6929. Mr. _Milnes_.] But you cannot legally sell the property of the
captain when the captain himself is declared to be not guilty?--If the
vessel was declared guilty by a proper court, undoubtedly that is a
consequence of the condemnation.
6930. Would the individual property of the captain himself be included
in the condemnation?--I believe the doctrine always has been, that the
whole property on board the ship is vitiated by her being engaged in the
slave trade. But these questions are all questions as to the
construction of the Act of Parliament of the 5th of George the 4th,
which I do not feel competent to interpret in this manner, although I
see my way clearly enough to act upon it.
6931. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you consider that the mere conveyance as a
common carrier of goods from the Havannah to the coast of Africa, is an
act of slave dealing?--Not the common carrying of goods: but if she is
carrying goods from Pedro Blanco to Mr. Canôt, I do not call that a
common act of carrying. It is the act of carrying goods for a specific
purpose between two persons engaged in a criminal trade.
6932. Mr. _Milnes_.] Could not Pedro Blanco and Mr. Canôt have
mercantile communications which should be of an indisputably legal
character?--They might, but they indisputably have no such commerce
except in the smallest degree possible. There was some little palm-oil
trade carried on by Mr. Canôt. I believe Mr. Canôt’s evidence was not
taken upon the question, but Mr. Canot made no secret of the purposes to
which that cargo would have been applied by him.
6933. Mr. _Forster_.] Supposing arsenic to be conveyed from London to
Manchester, and there made an illegal use of, would you consider the
carrier responsible in that case?--No, but I think that supposed case
applies to the carriage of goods from England to the Havannah, and not
from the Havannah to a slave factory in Africa. If you suppose the case
of the person at the place to which the arsenic was sent, and the person
who sends it, both being employed in poisoning people, I should think in
that case the carrier would be culpable, supposing him to be aware of
the fact.
6934. Do you consider it illegal for an English vessel to convey a cargo
of merchandise from the Havannah to a person engaged in the slave trade
on the coast of Africa?--Supposing they are sent by a person engaged in
the slave trade.
6935. Do you consider it illegal for an English vessel to convey a cargo
of goods to a notorious slave dealer at the Havannah?--No, I do not.
6936. On what ground do you draw the distinction between the two
cases?--I think the one is more directly aiding and abetting the slave
trade than the other; the other is in a much more remote degree. I have
before stated that I thought it was morally wrong.
6937. Mr. _Milnes_.] Do you recollect whether the fitting up of the
vessel was such that it could have taken back a cargo of slaves,
supposing Mr. Canôt had still been concerned in the slave trade?--She
would only have had to get a few casks and a few planks, and she might
have taken back 700 or 800 slaves with the greatest ease Any vessel can
be fitted up as a slaver.
6938. Then your impression is that that vessel arrived there expecting
to find Mr. Canôt engaged in the slave trade, and was disappointed at
finding that he had abandoned it?--Undoubtedly, they still supposed him
to be engaged in the slave trade; but how far the disappointment went I
cannot say. The goods were landed to him still, although there was a
supercargo on board, which is a strong reason to suppose that Mr. Canôt
was not robbing his employers, as was suggested.
6939. Mr. _Forster_.] Was it not the fact, that it was not till after
they had been landed that the goods were removed to Cape Mount?--But
they had been promised to be removed before. The promise was given that
his goods should be removed to Cape Mount, under the protection of the
British flag, because it was well understood that the natives would
resist the removal of Mr. Canôt; they wanted to have a slave dealer.
6940. What back cargo could the Echo have taken from Mr. Canôt, except
slaves?--She could have taken nothing approaching to a cargo; there were
a few casks of palm oil, but wholly insufficient for the cargo of such a
vessel.
6941. _Chairman._] Could she not have taken money?--She could have taken
money or bills, but nothing in the shape of cargo.
6942. Is not the greater part of the slave trade on the coast of Africa
carried on upon the principle of one vessel bringing a cargo and taking
back money, and another vessel being employed to take away slaves?--It
is. In most of those cases, the principal slave dealer is resident at
the Havannah; and in all cases almost the freight of the former is paid
for in the Havannah. There is no money or goods taken out in the vessel
intended to carry back slaves.
6943. There is nothing, in the course of the slave trade on the coast of
Africa, which leads you to imagine that a vessel which carries goods to
the coast must necessarily intend to carry slaves back?--No; there is
only one instance which I know, when I was upon the coast during the
last two years, of such an attempt. With respect to Mr. Canôt, there is
one fact with regard to his conduct which is highly in his favour. Some
time after the slaves were delivered up, the natives got some goods from
him, and tried to endeavour to induce him to resume the slave trade.
They went and bought 50 slaves with those goods. He gave information on
the subject, and through him the slaves were delivered up to Lieutenant
Seagram. Throughout his whole conduct I have the strongest reason to
suppose that he is most perfectly honest in his intention of abandoning
the slave trade. He has always given me the fullest information with
regard also to the resumption of the slave trade at New Cestos.
6944. _Chairman._] You had a good deal of intercourse with Mr. Canôt?--A
good deal. I used to receive communications from him, giving me
information with respect to the slave trade.
6945. What appears to have been the moving cause to induce him to
abandon the slave trade?--I have reason to believe that he had for some
time contemplated it; but the immediate cause was, that under the
blockade he found that he could not follow out the commerce; that he
could not get the slaves away.
6946. Mr. _Forster_.] Was the captain cognizant of Mr. Canôt having
abandoned the slave trade previously to the landing of the cargo?--He
states it himself in his complaint. He states that it was so; that he
saw the English flag flying.
6947. Do not you consider that strong proof, that the captain of the
Echo was no party to the slave trading transactions going on between the
shipper and the consignee?--I can only suppose that the property was Mr.
Canôt’s, and that he as an honest man felt himself bound to give it to
him. Had it been Pedro Blanco’s own property, sent by him for Mr. Canôt
to buy slaves with, I think the property would not have been allowed to
be landed.
6948. If the captain had been in the secret as to the transactions
between the house at the Havannah and Mr. Canôt, the captain, to protect
the house in the Havannah, finding that Mr. Canôt had abandoned the
slave trade, would not have delivered the goods?--He was paid for his
freight. I suppose he did not care what became of the goods. Had he not
landed the goods, he would have had to carry them back; he would have
been unable to take freight back.
6949. Mr. _Milnes_.] Was none of the freight landed?--I believe all that
was consigned to Mr. Canôt was landed after I sailed.
6950. How would Mr. Canôt have paid for it?--I have no idea how it was
paid for. There are three theories to choose amongst; one is, that he
robbed his employer’s goods without any set-off; another is, that his
employers owed him something equivalent at least to the value of the
goods; and the third is, that they were his own property. I refused to
enter into the subject with him at all; I had nothing to do with his
slave transactions; had it been amenable to seizure I should have seized
it.
6951. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Does the slave trade increase or decrease, at
the time of the senior officer on the station being changed?--It has
generally been observed in the printed correspondence of the
commissioners, and also from the observations of the officers on the
coast, that the senior officers not having a practical knowledge of the
coast, upon their first arrival there the cruizing is much less
efficient for a certain time. It requires a long time for an officer to
understand the duties of the coast.
6952. You have understood that frequently changing the officers is
injurious to the suppression of the slave trade?--Such is my opinion; I
think that three years is the proper time for an officer to be employed
there. I think the service would suffer if they were removed more
frequently.
6953. How long, speaking generally, does it take for an officer to
acquire a tolerably competent knowledge of the duties on that
coast?--Several months, certainly.
6954. Are the cruizers now obliged to leave their stations frequently,
to get provisions?--They are obliged to leave their stations generally
once in three or four months for that purpose, and during that period,
of course, the slavers frequently escape. The period is longer or
shorter, according to the distance of the depôts.
6955. Do not the slave traders generally obtain accurate information of
the periods at which the cruizers will probably be absent?--They
frequently do so by reasoning, and by observing the time at which the
cruizers have received their supplies.
6956. Does the present state of the Bounty Acts afford due encouragement
to exertions for the prevention of the slave trade, or might an
alteration be made which would do more justice to those who are affected
by those Acts?--In my opinion the present system of bounties is upon an
extremely bad footing. It affords a great premium upon the capture of
full vessels over empty vessels; whereas I believe the slave trade is to
be stopped by the prevention of embarkation.
6957. How could the Act be altered, in your opinion, so as to make less
difference between full vessels and empty vessels?--My opinion is, that
there should be no difference whatever between them; that they should be
paid upon the tonnage a bounty, calculated upon the average between the
profit of a full vessel and an empty vessel of the same tonnage; that
there should be no more head-money whatever; that the proceeds should
not go to the captors; that the proceeds should go to the Government;
that the reward of the captors should be only upon the tonnage.
6958. Abolishing head-money altogether?--Abolishing head-money
altogether.
6959. _Chairman._] Do you conceive that Sierra Leone is well situated as
a place for adjudication, under the present circumstances of the slave
trade?--I think that it is the best place, under the present
circumstances of the slave trade.
6960. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Can you suggest any improvement in the rigging
of the ships employed on the coast, or in the boats with which they are
furnished?--The cruizers employed upon the coast have the same masts and
sails precisely in them as they would have in the North Sea, their
duties lying altogether in the Tropics. In my opinion, with the same
masts, a large increase of canvass, by making the sails squarer, would
be of the utmost advantage.
6961. Are the boats now used the best adapted for that particular
service?--I think every vessel, capable of carrying them, ought to carry
two long six-oared galleys at her quarters, and that those that carry
boats amidship should have as large boats as they can stow, and that
they should be built so lightly as to be able to keep pace with the
galleys. A much larger proportion have been captured by boats than by
cruizing.
_Lunæ, 27º die Junii, 1842._