Sir T. D. Acland.
Mr. Aldam.
Viscount Courtenay.
Captain Fitzroy.
Mr. Forster.
Mr. W. Hamilton.
Sir R. H. Inglis.
Mr. Milnes.
VISCOUNT SANDON in the chair.
Captain _Henry Worsley Hill_, R.N., called in; and further examined.
7150. _Chairman._] When you were last examined, you were stating the
cases in which you conceived that British merchants had given assistance
to the slave trade?--Yes; I stated the case of the Augusta having been
detained by me.
7151. Are there other cases which have come to your knowledge?--Not of
vessels being engaged in the slave trade.
7152. Are there any other instances in which you have ascertained that
English merchants had aided or abetted the slave trade?--A
representation in a private way was made to me by the governor of
Liberia, that an English vessel had supplied Mr. Canót at New Cestos,
with goods and arms. He mentioned among other things, two or three
pieces of brass ordnance, with which Mr. Canót was supposed to be
fortifying his slaving establishments.
7153. Was that case investigated?--No, I could not gain sufficient
proof. I went on board the vessel, and the master of the vessel did not
deny having landed goods at Theodore Canót’s establishment, but I could
find nothing amongst her papers or her custom-house cockets that went to
convince me that guns and things had been taken out from England
consigned to Mr. Canót. It did not come to any thing, it was merely a
representation made by the governor of Liberia, as a set-off to the
complaints that were daily made of the American flag covering the slave
trade upon the coast; but I could find nothing whatever that justified
me in supposing that that vessel came out with her cargo consigned to
Mr. Canót.
7154. Do you know of any other case?--No, I know of no other case.
7155. Have you received assistance in the prosecution of your duty upon
the coast from English vessels engaged in trade, in the way of
information or otherwise?--In one or two instances I have.
7156. Of what nature?--Merely giving information of vessels which they
had seen on the coast, which they suspected of being engaged in the
slave trade.
7157. Have you ever received obstruction from them?--No, I have not.
7158. Mr. _Forster_.] You have spoken very strongly of Messrs. Zulueta &
Co. as connected with the slave trade; are you aware that those
gentlemen act very extensively as agents for foreign houses in Cuba, in
Spain, and in Brazil, as Spanish merchants?--I have no means of
ascertaining that.
7159. The cargo of the Augusta, which you seized, was shipped at
Liverpool, where Messrs. Zulueta & Co. have a house?--It was.
7160. Did you find any prohibited goods in that cargo which had been
shipped at Liverpool?--None.
7161. That cargo having been shipped at Liverpool, composed of lawful
goods, and legally cleared by the custom-house officers there, in what
way do you consider Messrs. Zulueta & Co. criminally implicated in such
a transaction?--The custom-house officers at Liverpool may be totally
ignorant of the trade carried on at the Gallinas, and also totally
ignorant of the trade carried on by Pedro Martinez & Co. at the
Havannah.
7162. Suppose Messrs. Zulueta & Co. to have received orders from their
foreign correspondents to ship those goods; in what way do you consider
them bound to know the history and pursuits of the person to whom they
were directed to consign them at the Gallinas?--I should certainly think
they are bound to be cautious that they did nothing contrary to the
laws of the country in which they were residing.
7163. But unless they knew that those goods were to be applied for the
purchase of slaves on the coast of Africa, in what way do you consider
them bound to exercise any caution, and above all, to refuse to comply
with the orders of their correspondents?--I certainly think they are
bound to use every caution that they do not act contrary to law.
7164. Who were the parties to whom they were consigned at the
Gallinas?--The goods were consigned to be delivered to Don José Alvarez,
and Don Angel Ximenes, and Don José Perez Rola, all noted slave dealers.
7165. _Chairman._] Have Messrs. Zulueta direct intercourse with the
coast of Africa themselves, as merchants, or are they only agents?--I
have never met a vessel belonging to Messrs. Zulueta & Co. on the coast
of Africa.
7166. They are shipping agents in England, obeying orders given them by
their correspondents abroad?--I have never known Zulueta & Co. to be
employed in any mercantile transactions on the coast of Africa, except
with regard to Spanish slave merchants. I have never seen their names in
any vessels that I have boarded, engaged in innocent traffic.
7167. Do you conceive that a shipping agent is bound to make himself
acquainted with the pursuits of the parties to whom he ships lawful
goods?--I think, as far as regards the slave trade on the coast of
Africa, it is the duty of a merchant residing in England, to be cautious
that he does not do any thing that will at all be acting contrary to the
Act of Parliament for the Abolition of the Slave Trade.
7168. Supposing he had consigned goods to the Bight of Benin, for
instance, where many of the greatest dealers in produce have been till
lately dealers in slaves; can you conceive that he would have been
engaging in unlawful traffic in complying with such orders from his
correspondent?--If the goods were to be consigned to a port where
innocent traffic was carried on, and to merchants who carried on that
traffic as well as the slave trade, of course it would admit of great
doubt to what purpose those goods would be applied; but, in this case,
the goods being consigned to those three people at the Gallinas, a port
where no trade but the slave trade has been carried on for a
considerable number of years, I think it materially alters the position
of the parties in the shipping of the goods.
7169. Then the innocence or otherwise of the transaction depends, in
your opinion, upon the knowledge on the part of the shipping agent in
England of the exclusively slave-dealing character, of the trade carried
on from any point of the coast of Africa to which the goods may be
consigned?--I think not exactly.
7170. Supposing the Gallinas had carried on a trade to the extent of 100
pieces of ivory annually, would that have been an innocent transaction
which you now consider to have been a culpable one?--I think it might
admit of a doubt whether there was a possibility of the goods shipped
being employed in innocent traffic; but I think, being shipped to a
place like the Gallinas, there can be no doubt whatever to what purpose
the goods would be applied.
7171. Is not the nature of the traffic carried on from different points
of the coast of Africa, shifting and varying from time to time; at one
time exclusively in slave dealing, at other times partly in slave
dealing and partly in produce; and at other times wholly in produce;
according as the efforts of the English merchants have prevailed more or
less. Would it not, therefore, according to this view, require constant
reports to the shipper in England of the state for the year of the
different points of trade on the coast of Africa, to enable him to know
whether he could with safety carry on trade with any one place?--I think
the slave trade has been at the point to which the vessel in question
was consigned to deliver her cargo, so fully established, that it can
admit of no doubt whatever as to the trade in which that vessel was
employed. But it may happen, at many places on the coast, that a doubt
might exist. For instance, if a merchant were established on the coast,
carrying on the joint traffic of exchange of the produce of the country
as well as the slave trade, it certainly would admit of a doubt. But I
think it is the business of the merchant residing in England to make
himself acquainted with the character of the persons on the coast of
Africa to whom he makes consignments, especially seeing the attempts
that are making and have been made for the suppression of the slave
trade.
7172. You observe that the case in question is not the case of a
merchant carrying on a direct trade with a slave dealer, but a merchant
obeying the orders of his correspondent, to make consignments merely as
his shipping agent?--I think myself it depends in a great measure upon
the place to which the cargo is to be delivered. I think at New Cestos,
for example, there might be a doubt to what trade the cargo would be
applied; but there are many cases which will not admit of a doubt. Now
if a merchant has been in the habit of acting as agent to a foreign
house for a length of time, I think he must somehow acquire a knowledge
of the trade which this foreign merchant is embarked in. I think it
becomes the duty of the merchant to endeavour to make some inquiry,
because the Act of Parliament is very decisive; it says, “Or in any
other manner to engage or contract to engage directly or indirectly
therein as a partner, agent or otherwise, or to ship, tranship, lade,
receive or put on board, or to contract for the shipping, transhipping,
lading, receiving or putting on board of any ship, vessel or boat,
money, goods or effects to be employed in accomplishing any of the
objects or the contracts in relation to the objects, which objects and
contracts have hereinbefore been declared unlawful.” The law is very
decisive.
7173. Mr. _Forster_.] What are the objects and contracts which have been
previously declared unlawful?--“For any persons to deal or trade in,
purchase, sell, barter, or transfer, or to contract for the dealing or
trading in, purchase, sale, barter, or transfer of slaves or persons
intended to be dealt with as slaves.”
7174. Do you consider the lawful shipping of goods at Liverpool a
dealing in slaves?--A lawful shipment of goods cannot be unlawful.
7175. But if the shipment had not been lawful, would not the
custom-house officers at Liverpool have seized the goods?--It is
possible that the custom-house officers at Liverpool may be ignorant of
what caused the shipment of the goods to be unlawful.
7176. But the custom-house officers cannot be ignorant whether the goods
which they pass at Liverpool are lawfully shipped?--The parties and the
port to which the goods are to be delivered of course stamp the
character of the trade in which they are sent out.
7177. _Chairman._] Would it be convenient if the custom-house officers
were informed from time to time to what ports vessels might clear with
safety, and to what they might not?--I think in the case of such a port
as the Gallinas, it would have been convenient, and perhaps have been
attended with some benefit, had the custom-house officers in our
different ports in England been made acquainted with the trade that was
there carried on, to prevent goods being shipped direct for that port;
but that again would be evaded by shipping goods, as is frequently done,
for the coast of Africa, without specifying any port.
7178. Do you conceive that the destruction of the barracoons is very
effectual in putting down the slave trade?--I think that in many cases
it would be attended with great benefit to the suppression of the slave
trade, almost in every instance; but great care should be exercised in
doing it.
7179. In what respects?--That the establishments should be decidedly
ascertained to be slaving establishments, so as not to destroy any
establishments that might be erected where innocent traffic was carried
on, but only the slaving establishments that were _bonâ fide_ for the
express purpose of slaving.
7180. Have you found any feeling of irritation created among the natives
upon the coast by that mode of proceeding?--No; I was frequently at the
Gallinas after the barracoons at the Gallinas were destroyed, and I
thought a good feeling was springing up amongst the chiefs for the
establishment of commerce and the cultivation of their soil. They
certainly expressed a wish that the barracoons and the slaving
establishments in the neighbouring states should be destroyed as well as
their own.
7181. Do you conceive that the slave trade is popular with the natives
of all classes, or that its profits are principally confined to the
chiefs?--I think it is popular with the natives of all classes.
7182. Mr. _Forster_.] If it is popular with all classes, how do you
account for their expressing a wish that the barracoons should be
destroyed?--That followed after their own barracoons had been destroyed;
they wished their neighbours’ barracoons to be destroyed likewise; they
expressed their delight very openly when I went to the Gallinas after
the establishments at Sea-bar had been destroyed.
7183. Supposing them to feel any irritation upon the subject, do you
think it likely that it would be to the officer of a ship of war that
they would communicate those feelings?--Perhaps not, directly; but I
think the officers on being on shore would very easily observe if their
feelings were unfavourable.
7184. _Chairman._] Had you any communication with the slave dealers
themselves upon the subject of this method of putting down the slave
trade?--Yes; I saw, I think, the most intelligent of the slave dealers
that were established at the Gallinas, I think it was Don Angel Ximenes,
who told me that it was impossible for him to carry on the slave trade,
if this plan was followed up; that he was ruined by it; and that he
intended immediately going to America, and that he had recommended the
other slave dealers to do the same. Two or three of them, I know, left
Africa immediately, and one other man left the Gallinas territory and
settled in the neighbouring states, with the intention of trying to
carry on the slave trade again.
7185. Has the introduction of the Equipment Article led, as a matter of
necessity, to carrying on the slave trade by the collection of slaves in
barracoons, ready for the descent of any slaver, who can no longer now
hover in sight, and remain waiting for the collection of slaves during
its stay there?--Yes; slave vessels now come across from the Havannah in
every way ready equipped for embarking their slaves at an hour’s notice;
they appear off the coast, and in one or two instances, I have heard
that in two hours their cargoes have been put on board them.
7186. Barracoons have now become an essential part of the existing
system of the slave trade?--They have always had barracoons.
7187. Mr. _Milnes_.] Do you think the slave trade is popular among the
lower classes?--Yes, I think it is in those parts of Africa where they
have known no other trade; that has been the trade by which they have
derived all the principal articles that have almost become necessary to
them.
7188. _Chairman._] Have you seen instances where, upon the extinction of
the slave trade, legitimate trade has taken its place?--I heard various
reports of its having done so at the Bonny and at Benin; at the Bonny
particularly. Again, Mr. Spence, in the River St. George’s, established
himself and introduced innocent trade, and I believe totally expelled
the slave dealers; it had a very beneficial effect in those three
places.
7189. Was that a case where lawful traffic had the effect, without the
assistance of cruizers, of expelling the slave trade, or was it in
co-operation with them?--I think in co-operation with the cruizers. Mr.
Spence took a great deal of pains, and if he had known of a slave vessel
coming into St. George’s, he would have immediately informed the
cruizers, and in fact he had so much influence with the chiefs
immediately around him, that he prevented them from carrying on the
slave trade. The slave trade cannot be carried on without the sanction
of the chief, and in fact in almost every case it is done by the chief
of the district himself; he is the principal slave dealer, receiving a
certain emolument from the slave dealers coming to his place to trade.
7190. When you speak of the co-operation of the cruizers with Mr.
Spence’s efforts, you mean that the cruizers protected Mr. Spence in his
operations, but not that they were preventing the slave trade at the
time by a blockade?--Exactly.
7191. Have you heard since the destruction of the slave factory at the
Gallinas, or at Sea-bar, whether lawful trade has taken the place of
the slave trade?--When I was last at the Gallinas, one of the chiefs
showed me a sample of cotton that he was cultivating, and he promised
that he would collect as much as he could for the purpose of carrying on
innocent trade: he had then, I think, at the time I am speaking of, six
or eight large packages in his house, and he said, that in the course of
time, he could produce any quantity. He seemed to be honest in his
intentions.
7192. Viscount _Courtenay_.] Was it wild or cultivated cotton?--He told
me that he had cultivated it; and it appeared to me to be particularly
good; it was much finer than any I have seen elsewhere.
7193. Mr. _Aldam_.] Did you see any cotton cultivated?--No, I did not
see any cultivated; this was up the country, 10 or 12 miles up the
Gallinas River.
7194. Would it be practicable to collect a considerable quantity of wild
cotton?--No; I think the wild cotton is so much scattered, that without
cultivation they could not collect any quantity.
7195. _Chairman._] Had you any conversation with the chief upon the
advantage with which the people might be employed in raising produce
rather than their being sold as slaves?--Frequently I endeavoured to
instil into their minds the advantages they would derive from giving up
the slave trade, and employing their own slaves in tilling the ground,
and collecting cam wood, and any thing the country might produce. I
think in many parts of the Gallinas the country is capable of being
cultivated to a great extent. I am now speaking of King Siacca’s Town,
which is 10 or 12 miles up the river.
7196. Do you think it would be of advantage, either for the suppression
of the slave trade, or for the encouragement of the lawful trade to have
factories or forts planted at particular points?--I think, decidedly; I
think if factories were established along the coast, it would materially
lead to the suppression of the slave trade, and also to the cultivation
and improvement of Africa generally; I think particularly on the coast
from Sierra Leone to Cape Mount, which has been the chief slavery
district on that part of Africa.
7197. Have you had reason to know whether there would be facilities or
otherwise for the purchase of sites for settlements of that description
from the native chiefs?--I think there might be a little opposition made
in the first instance, which might easily be overcome. I remember one of
the chiefs of the Gallinas telling me that he would have no objection to
see the English settle there; but others again did not seem so desirous
of it. Again, at Cape Mount the chief was very anxious that the English
should establish themselves, and carry on trade there; and when I was
last at Cape Mount the English flag was flying. The American governor of
Liberia came up, and was very desirous that the American flag should be
likewise hoisted, which the chief refused; he showed a decided
preference to the English.
7198. Is there a coasting traffic established along the coast to any
degree from point to point, and is any part of it carried on by the
liberated Africans of Sierra Leone?--I think not; I think the coasting
trade of Sierra Leone to the southward does not extend beyond one or two
towns in the Sherboro’ River, where they go for cam wood, which is
particularly good there. To the northward the canoes trade to the River
Scarcies, and occasionally, I think, as far as the Pongos. But those
boats that go to the Pongos always incur the suspicion that they are all
more or less carrying goods for the slave dealers in the Pongos; but as
far as regards the immediate coasting trade of Sierra Leone, it is very
much confined.
7199. You would be glad to see the services of a steamer secured for
Sierra Leone?--I think it is absolutely necessary.
7200. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] And also for the Gambia?--And for the Gambia
likewise. I think it is absolutely necessary for the Gambia, to
communicate between St. Mary’s and M‘Carthy’s Island. For instance, it
occurred while I was at the Gambia that information arrived from
M‘Carthy’s Island of the natives having attacked the island, and before
troops could be sent up, or I could get up in a sailing vessel, many
days elapsed, where a steam-boat would have done it in a day and a half.
Steam-boats would also be particularly useful for the suppression of the
slave trade.
7201. Is there any other point besides Sierra Leone and the Gambia where
you think they are particularly wanted?--I would say, generally along
the coast, for the suppression of the slave trade, I should say that it
would require half-a-dozen steamers to protect the coast between the
Gambia and the southernmost slaving ports on the western coast of
Africa.
7202. Where?--Down to Benguela. I think about half-a-dozen steam-boats
would be sufficient.
7203. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] What is the average passage by steam and the
average passage by sailing vessels between the Bight of Benin and Sierra
Leone?--It depends a great deal upon the season of the year. I think
from the Bight of Benin to Sierra Leone the average passage in sailing
vessels is about a month.
7204. Have you experience sufficient to enable you to state to the
Committee the average passage by steam-vessels?--No, I have not.
7205. What is the extreme length of passage between the Bight of Benin
and Sierra Leone in a sailing vessel; the question having reference
particularly to a sailing vessel taking slaves on board for adjudication
before the court at Sierra Leone?--I have heard of vessels being a very
long time, three months; I think I remember slave vessels that have
taken between two or three months to get up from the Bight of Benin to
Sierra Leone; but I think that is a very rare occurrence; usually the
passage is made in about a month.
7206. In all seasons?--In all seasons; I think a month is the average
passage.
7207. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] What is the shortest?--I think I have heard
of its being done in a fortnight.
7208. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] What is the average passage across the
Atlantic, from the Bight of Benin to the Havannah?--From five to six
weeks; but I think it is done in less time; I think I remember a slaver
telling me, that he did it in something less than a month, but I think
from five to six weeks is the average passage; the great difficulty is
getting immediately off the coast.
7209. _Chairman._] Are the winds mostly on shore?--It depends a great
deal on the season of the year.
7210. Would there be any difficulty in a vessel lying off Cape Palmas,
if it were thought desirable, for the purpose of regulating any
emigration that might proceed from those parts?--I think there would be
no difficulty in a cruizer remaining off Cape Palmas; in lying at anchor
there would be danger, but not in keeping under weigh.
7211. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you think that it would be possible for a
naval officer to undertake the service of clearing vessels for the West
Indies, having ascertained that the natives embarked on board came with
their free will, without any fraud or compulsion?--I think the local
authorities could do that better than a naval officer.
7212. The question refers to those parts where there are no local
authorities; and it proceeds on the supposition that no vessel could be
received with emigrants in the West Indies without a clearance from the
British officer commanding a certain range of coast: could a British
officer in the first place lie off and on, and in the next place, could
he discharge the duty of ascertaining whether the emigrants on board any
vessel submitted to his examination, were or were not engaged on that
voyage without fraud or compulsion?--I think he would have no other
means of ascertaining, but what he was told by the natives themselves.
7213. What course would he pursue; would he muster the emigrants on
deck, and be able to ascertain from them the circumstances under which
they were embarked?--Of course he would have to muster the negroes, and
he would question each whether they embarked with their free will for
the purpose of emigration; but to do that, he would require an
interpreter, and perhaps amongst the number, there might be a great many
who spoke different languages; therefore there would be as many
interpreters required, as there were different languages; and after all,
those people might declare that they had not been asked, and probably
place the naval officer in a very awkward predicament. He would be
subject entirely to the African, who might tell half-a-dozen different
stories in the course of so many months. It would be a very difficult
measure to carry out.
7214. _Chairman._] If they were only to embark Kroomen or inhabitants of
the coast, do you think he would have any difficulty in ascertaining
whether they were free agents or otherwise?--With Kroomen or Fishmen, I
think none whatever; because in the Kroo country and in the Fish country
the slave trade is not carried on, or if it is carried on, it is so
slight that we hardly know any thing about it.
7215. Mr. _Aldam_.] Is there more than one language spoken by the
Kroomen and the Fishmen?--There is some difference of language, but
still they understand one another.
7216. One interpreter would be sufficient with the Kroomen and the
Fishmen?--I think so.
7217. _Chairman._] Would the officer on the station be able
to distinguish Kroomen and Fishmen from the natives of the
interior?--Decidedly, any person could.
7218. So that if he were instructed to sanction the emigration only of
Kroomen and Fishmen, he would be in no danger of confounding them with
any other tribes?--No, they are so distinct a class; they are perfectly
different from any other natives. They differ materially in appearance,
and manners, and language, and every thing.
7219. Then if the emigration were confined to those classes, you do not
apprehend that there would be any difficulty in preventing that
emigration from assuming the character of slave trade?--I think there
would be no difficulty in the Kroo country and in the Fish country. The
difficulty would be on the part of the coast where the slave trade is
known to have been carried on, and where, from the slave trade having
been carried on, the different tribes are so very much intermixed.
7220. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Could it in that case be done by the
commander of a fort on shore, who if he had time, would be able to
ascertain the facts?--I think it would be an undertaking of great
trouble.
7221. Mr. _Forster_.] Have you made any other seizures on the coast of
Africa than the Augusta?--Several.
7222. Did you seize a vessel called the Sénégambie at St. Mary’s?--Yes,
I seized a vessel called the Sénégambie in the river Gambia.
7223. On what ground was that seizure made?--On account of being
equipped for the slave trade.
7224. Were you aware at the time you seized her that she had been
chartered by the governor of Senegal for the voyage in which she was
engaged?--I do not know whether I knew that at the time of making the
seizure, or whether it was immediately afterwards, but the impression
upon my mind is, that the owner told me in the custom-house that he was
going to Bissao for a cargo of negroes.
7225. Did he not show you his papers and engagements, or rather did you
examine them yourself?--The papers of the vessel when I seized her were
in the custom-house. The vessel had been in the port of St. Mary’s two
or three days.
7226. Did you not examine the papers?--I went to the custom-house for
the purpose of examining the papers, and there I met Mr. Marbeau, the
owner of the vessel, who told me the vessel was going to Bissao for a
cargo of negroes.
7227. Did he not inform you that the negroes were for the service of the
French government?--Afterwards I received copies of an agreement entered
into between Mr. Marbeau and the governor of Senegal, transmitted to me
by the governor of St. Mary’s.
7228. When did you receive them?--While I was at St. Mary’s.
7229. Before or after you had seized the vessel?--I think two or three
days after I had seized the vessel; but those papers are printed in the
correspondence, and they give much better information upon the subject.
I have nothing to guide me but my recollection.
7230. Were there any mechanics or persons on board of her from the
shore, at the time you seized her?--Yes; there were some mechanics on
board of her belonging to St. Mary’s, who were employed in caulking and
fitting the vessel for her intended voyage. There were also on board of
her three small children, who I thought were under most suspicious
circumstances, belonging to St. Mary’s.
7231. Did you think the carpenters and caulkers, who were engaged on
board the vessel from shore, were there under suspicious
circumstances?--No, they were employed on board the vessel, fitting the
vessel for her intended voyage to Bissao for a cargo of slaves. The
Sénégambie was partly equipped for the slave trade; she was lying in a
British port, equipping for a cargo of slaves, where she had been for
two or three days; the equipments were quite sufficient to condemn her,
and she was condemned at Sierra Leone. She was absolutely lying in a
British port equipping; she was to get provisions, and she had
carpenters and men at work upon her belonging to the colony.
7232. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Was she preparing false decks?--The
slave-deck was partly laid, not wholly laid; she was being generally
equipped for the voyage she was going on.
7233. _Chairman._] Were the carpenters laying the slave-deck?--I cannot
say exactly what the carpenters were doing; I did not see them laying
the slave-deck; but she was fitting out for her intended voyage to
Bissao. There was a slave-deck partly laid, and part of it to be laid,
and I believe they would have finished it.
7234. Were the planks ready for completing the slave-deck lying
there?--I think they were.
7235. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] But you are certain that part of her
slave-deck was laid?--Yes.
7236. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Did you seize her upon the ground of her
partial equipment?--Her equipment was the ground upon which I seized
her.
7237. _Chairman._] And it was the ground of her subsequent
condemnation?--It was; the equipment was perfectly proved.
7238. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you wish the Committee to understand that that
vessel was chartered by the governor of Senegal for a voyage to Bissao,
and that she was not fitted out for that voyage at Senegal?--That I
cannot say; I found her partly equipped, and lying in a British port,
equipping for her intended voyage. She was so far equipped for the slave
trade that there were ample grounds for my seizing her; and she was
there caulking, fitting, and preparing for sea. She was to receive
provisions for her intended voyage from the colony of St. Mary’s; at
least, so I was informed by the supercargo.
7239. How do you account for the vessel coming from the neighbouring
French settlement of Senegal to fit out for the purpose of receiving
those negroes at the Gambia?--It is a most extraordinary thing, in my
mind, that a vessel should sail from a French port, only distant 50 or
60 miles, and come to an English port, and there remain for two or three
days, with people at work upon her, caulking and repairing her, and
fitting her for sea.
7240. Mr. _Aldam_.] Had she had bad weather?--No, nothing at all of the
sort; by the vessel’s papers she was not out of Goree more than one day
before she arrived at the Gambia; I think less than one day.
7241. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you wish the Committee to understand that the
vessel did not arrive at the Gambia with all her fittings for the
voyage?--I have before stated that the vessel was lying in the Gambia,
caulking and equipping for her intended voyage. It is impossible for me
to state whether she brought her slave-deck with her to the Gambia, or
whether she procured her slave-deck at the Gambia; but if she came to
the Gambia with all those equipments on board, I would ask what can be
thought of our custom-house officers at the Gambia?
7242. Do you think the custom-house officers at the Gambia would very
readily conceive themselves entitled to seize a French vessel, chartered
by the governor of Senegal?--The vessel being chartered by the governor
of Senegal could have nothing to do with the laws that prevail in a
British port. The French governor of Senegal cannot be regarded in an
English port; our own laws are what are to govern our officers. The
custom-house officers’ duty was to seize a vessel that was acting
contrary to the laws of a British port.
7243. Therefore you think it was no excuse for the custom-house officers
that she was employed in the service of the French government?--None
whatever, because the custom-house officers, in all probability, would
be perfectly ignorant of that circumstance, as I was myself. I seized
her, and I was not aware she was employed by the French government till
I had seized her one or two days.
7244. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] The last question, and your last answer, have
assumed that the vessel was employed in the service of the French
government; is that what you wish the Committee to understand in respect
of a vessel chartered by the governor of Senegal: might it not have been
a speculation, on the part of the governor, as an individual, not
involving any responsibility on the part of the government of
France?--Undoubtedly it is very possible that it might have been a
speculation on the part of the governor of Senegal without the knowledge
of the French government; but in the case of a vessel equipped for the
slave trade in a British port, whether she is employed by the governor
of Senegal, or the governor of Bissao, or the governor of any nation,
cannot in any way affect our laws.
7245. Mr. _Aldam_.] Was this vessel, which was fitted up for the purpose
of procuring negroes for the French service, fitted up as an ordinary
slave ship?--As an ordinary slave ship.
7246. There were the same means of restraint?--Precisely; iron bars
across the hatchway, and the usual equipment of a slave vessel.
7247. So that it appeared that men were intended to be kept under
restraint upon the voyage?--Certainly.
7248. Mr. _Forster_.] Were there any slave-irons on board?--I do not at
this period remember very minutely her equipment, but there was quite
sufficient ground to authorise my seizing the vessel.
7249. What were those carpenters doing on board?--They were at work upon
the vessel.
7250. Can you describe the work they were doing?--I cannot do that: they
were performing their work as carpenters.
7251. _Chairman._] Do you recollect whether they were caulking outside,
or performing work inside the vessel?--I saw them at work, but I do not
remember whether they were caulking the outside or the inside; but I see
in my report that she had caulkers on board belonging to St. Mary’s, who
were caulking and equipping her.
7252. Mr. _Forster_.] When you found that those carpenters belonged to
St. Mary’s, did you send them on shore?--No, most assuredly not.
7253. Did you seize them with the vessel?--I sent them up with the
vessel to Sierra Leone, and put them into the court with the vessel; and
with respect to the three children that were on board, I considered,
from their age, that they could be in no way connected with the
equipping of the vessel, or otherwise concerned in the vessel beyond a
general suspicion arising in my mind of what was intended to be done
with those children, and I therefore sent them on shore to the governor
of the Gambia, that he might make such inquiry respecting those children
as he might judge proper.
7254. Did you consider that those carpenters, working for hire on board
a vessel in the harbour, were justly chargeable with a participation in
the slave trade?--They were found on board the vessel, and I considered
it was necessary that I should send them with the vessel before the
Vice-Admiralty Court.
7255. Did you consider them as assisting in the equipment of the
vessel?--They were assisting in the equipment of the vessel, and it was
with that view I sent them up; and, moreover, their evidence, if the
court had required it, would have been necessary to show that the vessel
was absolutely equipping in a British port; but perhaps the vessel would
have been condemned without it.
7256. What was the result of the trial?--The vessel was condemned.
7257. Mr. _Forster_.] If the vessel was so fully equipped for the
purposes of the slave trade, as you stated, how could the evidence of
those carpenters be necessary at Sierra Leone?--I have stated that the
vessel was partly equipped, and was completing her equipment in the port
of St. Mary’s; those carpenters being on board, I considered that it was
necessary that I should send them to Sierra Leone for the court to
decide in what way they were punishable.
7258. Were not representations made to you from the shore that those
people were carpenters belonging to the settlement, hired by the master
of the vessel, and in no way answerable for his proceedings, or for the
destination of the vessel?--No official representation was made to me;
perhaps some merchant, or some person connected with some mercantile
houses on shore might have told me so, but I certainly paid no attention
to it, nor did I consider myself bound to pay attention to any thing of
the sort. Had an official representation been made to me from the
governor, of course it would require my greatest attention; but if an
officer in the execution of his duty is to be guided by every person
that he may meet in the settlement telling him this, that, or the other,
there would be no possibility of his ever performing his duty.
7259. But at all events you knew that they were native workmen,
belonging to the British settlement at the Gambia?--Yes; I knew that
from their own story. I sent them up with the vessel, and put them into
court with the vessel, and moreover acquainted the lieutenant-governor
of the Gambia officially that I intended doing so.
7260. Were they put in prison upon their arrival at Sierra Leone?--I was
not at Sierra Leone when the vessel arrived. To the best of my knowledge
they were confined about a month.
7261. _Chairman._] Were they condemned?--I do not know.
7262. Mr. _Aldam_.] Were they confined preparatory to trial, or after
sentence?--I forget, for I was not at Sierra Leone at the time; but I
believe it was the Vice-Admiralty Court that confined them.
7263. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you know whether the carpenters were tried or
not?--I do not know; I was not at Sierra Leone during the trial of the
vessel, but I believe I arrived at Sierra Leone the very day that the
vessel was condemned in the Vice-Admiralty Court.
7264. Did you make no inquiry as to the fate of those carpenters?--No, I
did not, because I left Sierra Leone, I think, the day after the vessel
was condemned, for Portendique, and I had no time to make inquiry on
either of the two days that I was at Sierra Leone. I knew that the
vessel was before the Vice-Admiralty Court who would decide upon the
merits of the case.
7265. Was there a French gentleman also on board the vessel when you
seized her?--There was a French person on board, whom I believed to be
the supercargo, and, I rather think, was the brother of Mr. Marbeau.
7266. Did you find that he was the supercargo of the vessel?--He told me
that he was the supercargo; and I believe that he was the brother of Mr.
Marbeau, the owner.
7267. Was he not a passenger from Senegal to the Gambia?--It is
impossible for me to say what he was.
7268. Had he been on shore at the Gambia previously to your seizing the
vessel?--It is impossible for me to say.
7269. Did you carry a French gentleman from the Gambia to Sierra Leone,
without making inquiry into his character and pursuits, and his
connexion with that vessel?--All persons who were found on board the
vessel, as I have before stated, with the exception of three black
children, I sent to Sierra Leone, because I could not tell, of course,
what he was doing in the vessel; he might be a French gentleman, or he
might be there for the purpose of purchasing slaves; or he might be, for
what I could tell, the very person who had got on board the three
children, who, I have before stated, I thought were placed in a very
suspicious position. My duty was to send everybody found in the vessel I
had captured, on the suspicion of slave dealing, before the court
appointed to adjudicate upon such cases.
7270. How did you consider him to be connected with those three
children?--What I stated was, that he might be; I have not said that he
was; I stated that I knew nothing about him, but finding him in the
slave vessel, I sent him with the slave vessel before the court.
7271. You sent the three children on shore?--Yes; everybody else I sent
before the court; and if any person in the world had been on board the
vessel I should have sent him in the same way; if an English merchant
had been on board, that merchant would have gone with the vessel
likewise before the court; the court is to decide upon the legality or
illegality of the conduct of persons found under such circumstances.
7272. _Chairman._] You conceive that that vessel, by her equipment was
clearly seizable, as engaged in the slave trade?--Yes, or else I should
not have seized her; I took upon myself a great responsibility in
seizing her.
7273. And under those circumstances you felt yourself called upon to
send every person found on board the vessel for adjudication before the
proper court?--Yes; if I had not done so, I should have conceived that I
laid myself open to the charge of not doing my duty.
7274. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] When you find a vessel reasonably suspected
of being engaged in the slave trade, you think those who are found on
board are liable to the same suspicion?--In the case of a vessel seized
amenable to the British law.
7275. Sir _R. H. Inglis_.] Did you not find on board the vessel a
contract between Marbeau and Pellett on the one hand, and the French
governor on the other, to deliver a certain number of “passengers” at
Goree?--This contract for “Blacks” was forwarded to me by the
lieutenant-governor of the Gambia, one or two days after I had made the
seizure, which contract I sent to the Vice-Admiralty court, with the
vessel; every paper connected with the vessel, as well as the contract,
was laid before the court.
7276. Mr. _Forster_.] Were you aware that she was engaged by the French
government before you sent her from the Gambia?--I had seen this
contract, which was entered into by the French governor of Senegal, but
not the French government.
7277. Was the French gentleman, M. Pellett, put in prison also upon his
arrival at Sierra Leone?--I have stated that I know not what was done by
the court at Sierra Leone. Not being in Sierra Leone at the time the
vessel was at Sierra Leone, I cannot say; but, to the best of my belief,
the whole of them were put in prison.
7278. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Have you known instances of persons in
authority under other governments being engaged in slave dealing?--The
charge has been frequently repeated very strongly of the governor of
Bissao being engaged very frequently in slave dealing, and I verily
believe it myself, because I have frequently detected vessels with
papers given by the governor of Bissao, which vessels were equipped in
every way for being engaged in the slave trade; and I have also some
recollection of some papers being found from the governor of Bissao,
detailing how some slaves that he had sent from Bissao were to be
disposed of.
7279. That slave dealing being contrary to the law of his own
country?--That slave dealing being contrary to the treaty between
England and Portugal.
7280. Therefore the mere fact of finding the name of a governor upon
the papers would not be a complete warrant for the lawfulness of the
traffic in which the vessel was engaged?--I should pay great respect to
the name of the French governor, but I should be very cautious how I
regarded the name of the governor of Bissao, because I have seen so many
instances of papers in which his name has been used to cover slaving
transactions.
7281. Mr. _Forster_.] Was the captain of the Sénégambie a black or a
white man?--I think a black man was represented to me as the captain.
7282. Mr. _Aldam_.] You spoke of the desirableness of having forts upon
the African coast, upon the territory of the native chiefs. What
establishment would it be necessary to have in any such fort?--I should
think if the forts were small and well built, a very few men would be
sufficient; I should fancy the best form of fort to be erected would be
a Martello tower, that they might have one gun upon a pivot, so that for
the defence of the fort it would require very few men.
7283. How many whites?--I should say half white and half black; I should
say a dozen men altogether.
7284.--Would not one or two white officers be sufficient, the rest of
the men being black?--That would do if you could insure white officers
living, but the danger is of one dying, and in that case to whom would
the charge of the fort devolve. It would be necessary to have a
sufficient number of white people, that you might always insure one
person to be in command.
7285. Are there no sub-officers blacks, whom you might entrust with a
command of that kind, subject to the visits of the captains of
men-of-war upon the station?--I think not at present; I think Africa
would require to be much further advanced in civilization before it
would be prudent to trust a fort entirely to black men.
7286. And it would generally happen that those forts would be built upon
an unhealthy part of the coast?--It is almost impossible to select any
part of the coast of Africa as being healthy. One spot may be more
healthy this season than another; but there is very little difference
upon the coast. The coast of Africa, from the Kroo country up to
Senegal, is generally composed of a low swampy mangrove line of coast.
Those mangroves extend frequently from 25 to 30 miles into the interior.
There are spots like Sierra Leone, Cape Verde, and Cape Mount, where you
can find high land; but generally speaking it is all a swampy mangrove
coast.
7287. The spots you would select for those forts for commercial purposes
would generally happen to be unhealthy?--It would naturally so occur,
because they would require to be near the mouths of the principal
rivers, for drawing the exports down from the interior; but I should
think that the communication would be drawn down better from the
interior by opening some communication, or making an agreement or treaty
with some of the inland powerful chiefs, such as the Foolahs, who are by
far the most enlightened race that I have seen, and much more advanced
towards civilization than the people in any other part of Africa that I
have been in.
7288. Sir _T. D. Acland._] Does Teembo belong to them?--Yes.
7289. Mr. _Aldam_.] Would you contemplate in that case having a fort
some distance up the river?--No; in the River Nunez, to which I allude
with respect to the Foolahs, I do not think it would be necessary,
because the petty chiefs immediately at the mouth of the Nunez, who are
now likely to give trouble, would be kept in order by them; I think a
treaty entered into with the Foolah chief, would in a great measure
ensure our trade with the Foolah country. Through the means of the
Foolah chief we should be enabled to carry on trade independent of the
petty chiefs, through whose territory the trade now has to pass.
7290. What kind of treaty would you make with those chiefs?--The object
of it would be to bind the Foolah chief down to afford protection and
security to our commerce, and to people settling in his country, for the
purpose of carrying on trade.
7291. And you think it would be easy to obtain such a treaty?--I think
so; I judge from the opinion given me by a Foolah chief, whom I met in
the Nunez, and who expressed himself desirous that the white people
should not leave the River Nunez, and said that he would be very happy
to escort me up to Teembo, that the Foolah Almaamy would be very happy
to see me.
7292. Over what extent of country would the influence of this chief
extend?--The Foolah country is now very extensive. The kingdom of
Kikandy is in some measure tributary to the Foolah country.
7293. Mr. _Forster_.] Were you at Sierra Leone when the affair of the
Hamburgh vessel, the Echo, took place?--I was at Sierra Leone while the
Echo was there.
7294. Did you apply to the captain of the Echo for some of his crew?--I
met some of the crew of the Echo, who came to me and expressed a wish to
enter the Saracen for Her Majesty’s service, and on meeting the captain
of the Echo, I mentioned to him that those people had done so; but I had
no idea of entering the crew, as they were all foreigners.
7295. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] How far is the Nunez navigable?--For vessels
drawing 10 feet water to Debucca, a distance of 50 or 60 miles; and for
large canoes I should think much higher.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
_Select Committee on West Coast of Africa._
R. R. GIBBONS, Esq. to MESSRS. ZULUETA & Co.
Gentlemen,
July 15th, 1842.
I send you herewith a copy of evidence given by Captain Hill, of a
later date than that I sent on a previous occasion.