friend took his turn to speak, and stated his mind upon these topics
with great clearness and eloquence to the following effect:—My dear Sir,
in regard to the explanation of the passage on which you have now given
your opinion, and also with regard to the explanation of the Scriptures
in general, I conceive our best and surest plan is to have recourse to
the uniform explanation and judgment of the church. If every one is
at liberty to form his own opinion of the meaning of Scripture, there
will be nearly as many opinions as there are individuals. Witness the
divisions which exist among the Protestants, in consequence of this
liberty which they take of explaining the Scripture, every one as appears
best to him. One believes a certain thing, another denies it, and a third
believes something different from both. Every truth in the Scripture has
thus been defended and opposed, and torn in pieces by this principle,
of every one explaining according to his own judgment and fancy. Under
these circumstances, what a consolation it is to have an authority to
which we can in all cases recur, and in whose decision we can rest
fully satisfied. This authority is _the church_,—which Jesus Christ has
invested with full power on all these points. In consequence of this,
the noble truths of our religion continue as they were in the beginning.
The judgment of the church has never varied upon them as it has done
among the Protestants, neither can it vary. We have the promise of Jesus
Christ that he will be with his church to the end of the world, and that
whatsoever shall be bound by its judgment upon earth, shall be bound also
in heaven, and that whatsoever shall be loosed by it on earth, shall be
loosed in heaven. My dear friend, here is our foundation, here is our
authority and consolation. The Catholic church has continued since the
days of the Apostles and has had an uninterrupted succession of Bishops,
from St. Peter until the present day. The Protestants cannot plead such
a succession. They are but a sect which left the church a century or two
ago, and still occupy a small portion of the world; whereas the Catholic
church, descending from the Apostles, has spread on every side, and its
doctrines have continued pure and uncorrupted from the beginning until
now, yea, and they will continue so until the end of the world, for Jesus
Christ has promised it. Here, my friend, is firm footing, and all else,
be assured, is quicksand and uncertainty. I was born a Catholic, and I
adhere to the religion of my country, and in which I was educated. It is
not, however, from the circumstance of being brought up in this religion
that I now adhere to it. No, Sir, on the contrary, when I came of age I
began to entertain doubts about our religion. Upon this, I set myself to
examine the subject with diligence and attention, and the result was a
thorough persuasion of its firm and unalterable foundation, and of the
beauty and grandeur of the structure. I look upon the Catholic religion,
therefore, with great delight and confidence. It appears to me like a
great and majestic river running through an extensive continent. On one
hand it makes its way, tumbling over rocks, yet uninterrupted in its
course by such impediments; again, it meets in its course with shelves
and dykes, and after being retarded a little by these hindrances it
breaks its way over, and then holds its noble and majestic course until
it reaches the ocean, enriching and beautifying every place through
which it flows. Such is our religion, and I clasp it to my bosom and
esteem it my best and only treasure.
When he had finished, I observed to him, that the plan of the Church
explaining all doubts and difficulties regarding the meaning of every
part of Scripture, and of our resting in that decision, had the
appearance of possessing many advantages. How desirable is it that we
should be able to set our minds at rest on subjects of such importance,
and wherein a mistake or an error might be attended with very serious
consequences. But there appears to me, I said, a great difficulty to be
got over, before we can allow our minds to enjoy the ease and confidence
referred to, by resting in an infallible interpreter. The difficulty
I speak of is this: How shall I know that the church has indeed the
authority you speak of? If I were fully satisfied that the church
possesses this authority, I would, I assure you, fully confide in it.
You remember that, in a former conversation, you promised to prove your
positions regarding the Catholic Church with evidence as satisfactory
as the proof, that the three interior angles of a triangle are equal to
two right angles. Now, I continued to observe, I cannot see evidence for
believing that the church has the power in question, and I cannot receive
it as a doctrine until I be convinced. On what then do you build this
doctrine?
I build this doctrine, said he, in the first place, on the promises of
Jesus Christ to his church, which are these: “whose sins soever ye remit,
they are remitted, and whose soever sins ye retain they are retained;
whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and again, I
will be with you always even unto the end of the world.” In the second
place, said he, from the consideration that the promises of Jesus to
his church, must necessarily have been fulfilled, I maintain that the
church has been guided by the Spirit in the manner I have stated, and in
consequence thereof, she has held the same doctrine from the days of the
Apostles until the present time.
I differ from you, I replied, regarding the meaning and application of
the passages you have quoted from the Scriptures. But as you will have
the church to explain them, and as the church does actually explain them
as you have stated, we cannot therefore meet each other here, on open
ground. Let us then pass on to the other fundamental principle which
you hold, namely, the fulfilling of this promise in the way you have
explained it. How then do you prove to me, that the church has never
varied in her doctrines?—I prove, said he, the constancy and stability
of the church by the uniform voice of ecclesiastical writers, from the
days of the Apostles until now. No sooner did any pastor or bishop broach
any new doctrine, than his own flock, and the whole body of Christians,
every where raised the cry against him. Errors now and then arose,
continued he, and errors too of great consequence, but in this manner
they were publicly reprobated, and the individuals who had erred were
thereby brought to repentance, or else expelled the church.—As I wished
to drive this subject to its proper issue, and to fix upon the very
point upon which we differed, and which point it was necessary to settle
before we could proceed farther with any advantage, I put this question
to him: Do you maintain that the writers upon ecclesiastical affairs,
from the days of the Apostles downward, have all held the same opinions
regarding the interpretation of Scripture? Not exactly so, said he, for
there have been differences among them regarding the interpretation of
several passages of Scripture; and he here instanced several opinions of
St. Augustine, St. Cyprian, &c. But so far, continued he, as respects
what are strictly and properly called the _doctrines_ of the church, I
maintain that there is no difference among them, although in points of
discipline they are not all agreed. You hold then, said I, do you, that
so far as the _doctrines_ of the Roman Catholic church are concerned,
the writers we speak of do not vary? I expected he would here give an
answer at once in the affirmative, but he withdrew a little farther, and
said that he would not affirm to the question I had put, as to _all_
that these writers had said; but so far only, as they had given their
_testimony_ to the doctrines in question as existing among them, he
wished to speak, and not as to their own opinions of these doctrines.
He here stated some _opinions_ of the fathers, and said, that so far as
they acted as _witnesses_ to what existed among them, and in the ages
previous to their time, thus far and no further were their writings to be
considered respecting the argument in hand. I here reminded him by the
way, of what I had before urged, but which he did not concede, namely,
that there were a great variety of opinions among the Catholics as well
as among the Protestants. I stated, at the same time, that I did not
urge this particularly as an objection to their system, but merely as
a counterpart to his objection to the Protestants, arising from their
differences. I then put the question: Do you maintain then, that so far
as ecclesiastical writers have given testimony to the doctrines of the
church, they do not vary, nor can vary?—Yes, said he, I do maintain
that position.—I then replied, I am glad we have come at length to this
one definite point, and I am glad, also, that you have excluded the
opinions of the writers on these subjects, and that you rest solely on
them as witnesses. I now see the point you maintain, and here we will
come to issue. My answer, for the present, shall be short. This position
which you maintain, is a position which I believe to be insupportable,
and which, in consequence, I deny. Here, then, let the subject for the
present rest; we have got a great length in seeing the very line which
divides us, and we have now the matter free of mystery. It is reduced to
a mere historical question. We shall, therefore, decide it as such on
some future occasion, when I shall take in hand to prove that the church
_has varied_.
We have now seen, said I, the very point in which we differ, let us also
see where we agree. I believe, said I, that all mankind are sinners,
and stand in need of a Saviour. I believe that God pitied our race, and
sent his only begotten Son to seek and to save the lost. I believe that
the Lord Jesus Christ is the true Mediator and Saviour of mankind, and
that there is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved. I do
sincerely believe, I continued, in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Lord and
my Redeemer; and, I trust, also that I desire to know all his precepts
and instructions, and to conform my thoughts, and words, and actions
thereunto.—I then said to him, is not this exactly what you believe?—He
said it was so. Well then, I replied, may not we look upon each other as
fellow disciples, and may not we each expect, if we hold on, that the
Lord will give unto us both that crown of righteousness which he hath
promised to them that love him? He here seemed to hesitate, and did not
give a direct reply. You see that I was here touching upon the point
of there being no salvation out of _their_ church.—He said that what I
had stated regarding my faith was well, but that there was something
farther necessary, and upon saying so, he seemed to digress a little,
or, at least, not to speak directly to the point in hand. My dear Sir,
said I, pray let us settle this point. Have the goodness to speak your
mind freely; speak out, what do I still want, what more must I believe,
than what I have stated, in order to obtain eternal life. Did not the
Lord Jesus himself concede eternal life to those who believed what I
have told you in my belief? And did not the Apostles, according to the
power invested in them, remit the sins of those who believed and acted in
the manner I have stated? He then said something about the necessity of
believing the church, in order to salvation.—Can I not look for salvation
without this? said I.—Take care that you do not put obstacles in the way
to heaven, which the God of our salvation has not put. Strait is the
gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, pray then, do not
with stumbling blocks fill up this narrow way. Let the Lord Jesus and his
Apostles guide us in this, and in all matters that concern the kingdom of
God.
Upon arriving here we found our time was gone, and that we had been
upwards of two hours in a very close conversation. As my friend could
stop no longer, we broke up our conversation at this point, he still
stating it as necessary to salvation, that I should believe the church.
When we thus dropped our disputation, he arose, and as I accompanied him
out, he threw his arms around me, and said, “We shall yet, I trust, be
united together, and companions in our Lord Jesus Christ.”
I have lengthened my account of this interview, perhaps unnecessarily,
and it may be till I have tired you. By way of excuse, I would say that
I felt real interest in the conversation, and my endeavour has been to
make you participate with me, as I believe what interests and pleases one
of us is not unpleasing, nor without interest, to the other. It often
happens, however, that what interests us in a conversation or narrative
loses its effect upon others by the imperfect way in which we repeat it.
In the present instance, this is very likely the case, but I leave you to
judge.
I have only to remark, before I conclude, that the point in dispute
between us is now reduced to narrow limits; and it was my main endeavour
to bring it to this bearing, nor was he averse to it. He is, as I said
at the outset, a man of good talents, and reasons clearly. I do not
promise to you that we shall be able to set the subject at rest in
our next conference, notwithstanding all the accuracy and honesty of
my good friend. You know there are many things which prevent such an
anticipation. I shall, however, endeavour to prove to him, in the first
place, that the church _at_ Rome, and other churches in the days of
the Apostles, held the doctrines and followed the practices which are
contained in the New Testament. With these doctrines I shall then compare
the doctrines of the church of Rome in the present day; and if I can show
a disparity between them, I think impartiality should give the judgment
in my favour, even without entering upon ecclesiastical history; as I
shall thus have proved that the church _has varied_, and hence that those
passages he referred to, must be misinterpreted by Romish writers, and
that they do not apply to their church, whose infallibility must, of
course, fall to the ground, agreeably to the principles stated in the
preceding conversation. Should, however, justice not speak out in my
favour, I shall pass on to show, from ecclesiastical writers, that the
doctrines of the Church of Rome differ in the present day from what they
were in the first and second centuries, and even later. By this means I
hope to arrive at the same conclusion, as in the way before mentioned,
and thus to disprove my friend’s position of the church never having
varied, by the very means by which he maintains it. This I conceive,
is the only way of managing the controversy between the Catholic and
the Protestant. Until you settle this point about the authority of the
church, you can do nothing effectually. If you cite, for instance, a
passage of Scripture to disprove any one of the doctrines of the Catholic
church, you are met immediately with the interpretation which the church
puts upon that passage, and there is an end of it. If you should allege
that the passage plainly and evidently means something very different
from each interpretation, then you are reminded that our judgement is
weak and erring, and that the judgment of the church is infallible. So
that to whatever hand you turn, you never can get out of this circle.
It is therefore necessary to demolish this outwork entirely. What I
have said of course applies chiefly to the mode of reasoning with those
who are thorough-paced in their theological arguments; but with regard
to others, you can attack them in any particular part, and carry your
argument forward on the principles of common sense, and by the doctrines
of Scripture taken in their plain and obvious meaning.
* * * * *
_Lima, 1st June, 1824._
In the conclusion of my letter of the 1st of March, I noticed that this
city had been taken possession of by the Spanish army. It is still in
their possession, and there does not appear, at present, any immediate
prospect of a change in this respect. You will not expect from me
political news under present circumstances, and I pass on to note what
little affairs have come under my observation during these two or three
months past, respecting that kingdom which cannot be moved by the strifes
of men, nor the clangour of war.
My letter to Mr. H. of 25th March would inform you of the protection
which the Spanish General granted to our schools. In consequence of that
encouragement, I resolved to remain her some time longer, in order to put
our establishment upon as sure a footing as possible. Nothing material
occurred in our school upon the arrival of the Spaniards, except the
losing of some of our scholars. The cause of this was the dread their
parents were in, lest their children should be seized on their way to
and from the school by the recruiting parties, who not infrequently take
some of the bigger boys as they find them in the street, in order to make
drummers of them. Our number, in consequence of this, is less than it
was about three months ago. In these times, when party spirit runs high,
we endeavour in our school to maintain a strict neutrality in words and
actions. We found some difficulty during the first days, after our change
of rulers, to establish this neutrality among the children themselves.
They would, from time to time, be forming themselves into sides, and
calling each other respectively Patriots and Goths. We have in the
school, children whose parents have taken opposite sides in this contest,
and as might naturally be expected, the children on the one hand and on
the other have imbibed the sentiments of their parents. We succeeded at
length in putting an end to these strifes among the children, and we now
all live in peace and unity. The government holds out to us no immediate
encouragement, and on the other hand, it never in any shape interferes
with our operations. On the whole, this school is going on very well. The
children are making progress in their learning, and advancing in moral
dignity; and some are lisping out, and some are reading with readiness,
the gracious words which proceeded out of the mouth of our blessed
Saviour, as they were taken down by the Holy Spirit. I may add, that we
are not losing the estimation of our friends here, but on the contrary,
if I mistake not, we are gaining more friends in both parties, and making
advances in public confidence.
About three weeks ago I was on the eve of leaving this place, and had,
as on a former occasion, every thing packed up with that intention. I
had indeed resolved to sail for Guayaquil with the first ship, and was
inquiring for a passage. My reasons for doing so were quite solid. My
salary, as I suppose you know, is paid by the government. Under present
circumstances, the payment of the troops is the first thing attended
to, and to procure funds sufficient for this purpose, requires great
exertions in the present exhausted state of this place. To obtain this
supply, all the ordinary sources of revenue are laid hold of, and
pretty heavy contributions also are laid on the inhabitants to make up
deficiencies. This being the case, there was no prospect of my obtaining
any supplies, more especially as persons in the immediate employ of the
government, and who have salaries assigned them, could obtain nothing.
To make certain, however, I made application, and found it impossible
to obtain any thing, on account of the circumstances mentioned. As you
know I have no supplies but what my own hands provide me with, it became
an imperative duty to remove when my usual resources were dried up.
These were my reasons for going, and I suppose you will consider them
sufficient, especially if you take into consideration the high price of
all kinds of provisions in this city. Sugar for instance, which grows
and is manufactured within a few miles of the city, is now selling at
twenty-pence and two shillings the pound.
Being ready for setting off, as above mentioned, and having given notice
to the children to that effect, I waited only till the following day to
send my luggage down to Callao, and to follow it immediately. Whilst I
was thus prepared, my good friend the clergyman, whom I have frequently
mentioned in my former letters, called upon me, and said that he believed
I would not go away yet, notwithstanding all my preparations. I smiled at
what he said, and replied, that my going appeared very certain and very
near too, for I intended to send my luggage to Callao next morning.—Well,
I do not think you will go away for all that, said he.—Upon my asking
him what reasons he had for saying so, he stated, that he had been
speaking with some of the parents of the children, and that they had
expressed to him their concern at my going, and said they would very
willingly contribute what they could, and would speak to some others who
had children in the school, and that they hoped by that means something
might be raised, which might, in a great measure, remove the reasons I
had stated for my going. Whilst my friend and I were talking to this
effect, a person came in who had a son at school, and repeated the same
things. I replied, that I felt very much obliged by the confidence they
reposed in me, and for their friendly interference for my continuance
in this place. I noticed also that I had candidly stated my reasons for
going away at this time, and that though they had kindly proposed a way
of removing these difficulties, yet I felt a delicacy in calling on
the parents of the children on my own behalf. They replied to this by
saying that they would speak to some of their friends upon the subject,
and that in fact they had spoken to some of those of most influence who
were very cordial and anxious in the matter; and my friend the clergyman
proposed to write notes to others of the parents, in his own name, to
remove any delicacies I might have as to the application. Upon seeing
so much interest taken in this matter, I recognized the hand of God
in it, and agreed to their proposal. Their plan has been carried into
effect, and this has the Lord opened, as it were, a window in heaven, and
let down before me a sheet full of supplies. In this same manner, I may
say, has the Lord provided for me during the years of my pilgrimage in
this foreign land. He has set a table before me, he has anointed my head
with oil, he has made my cup to run over. Surely goodness and mercy will
follow me all the days of my life, and O may I dwell in the house of the
Lord for ever.
* * * * *
_Lima, 15th July, 1824._
Your very acceptable favour of 6th January last, came safely into my
hands on the 22d ultimo, and I have now the pleasure of writing you a few
lines in reply. Your notice of the progress of Bible Societies in France
is very interesting, and it is not less so what you mention regarding the
circulation of the Holy Scriptures in Egypt, and in Jerusalem, the city
of the great King. To whatever quarter we turn our eyes, we behold the
word of God silently making its way into the hands of men of every nation
and of every language, saying unto all, Fear God, and give glory to his
name, for the day of his merciful visitation is come. The strains of the
Bible Society remind us of the song of the heavenly messengers upon their
announcing the Advent of our great Deliverer. The language of both is,
“Glory to God in the highest, and on earth, peace, good will towards men.”
It affords me much satisfaction to observe the interest which the Society
takes on behalf of South America, and I hope the day is coming when we
shall be more sensible of your favours to us, and when we shall join
together in grateful acknowledgment of your godly benevolence. Have the
goodness to convey my sincere thanks to the Committee, for the readiness
with which they have acceded to my request respecting the translating
and printing of a part of the Holy Scriptures into the ancient Peruvian
tongue. I thought I should, by this time, have been able to give you a
very favourable account of the progress of this work, but we are subject
here to sad vicissitudes, for war rages in the land, and of late the
sword has reached unto our very soul. How long we shall be visited with
this scourge I cannot tell. The Judge of all the earth will do right, and
it is our duty to submit to his holy will.
The translation of the whole of the New Testament into the Peruvian
language was finished about two months ago. The Gospel by Luke has been
very carefully revised and corrected by four individuals, one of whom
is a Clergyman, another is a Theological Tutor in one of the colleges
of this city, and the other two are of the medical profession. These
four, along with the gentleman who made the translation, went over this
gospel verse by verse, with great care. The present corrected version,
therefore, is the joint work of _five_ persons, and I trust it may be
relied on with some confidence. It has not yet been put to the press,
for we have not had a printing press in Lima during these four months
past. There are two indifferent ones in Callao, one of them in the castle
and the other under its guns, but I have not yet been able to ascertain,
since I received your letter, whether any thing can be done at these or
not. In my next I shall inform you more particularly upon this subject,
and if the printing shall be then begun, I shall forward you a copy of
the first sheet.
In my letter to Mr. Ronneberg of 29th March last, I noticed the safe
arrival of the Grecian in Callao, bringing the 2,500 Spanish New
Testaments addressed to me, and the 1,592 addressed to Mr. Lynch. Of the
six boxes which came to me, I have sent two to Guatemala by a favourable
opportunity which offered. I have also sent one to Arequipa, and one to
Truxillo, and two yet remain on hand. A few weeks ago I received from
Captain Robson, of the Sesostris, two boxes of New Testaments, (Paris
edition,) containing about 500 each. These he received, I believe, from
the Merchants’ Bible Society, or from some other of the Societies in
London.
In the letter already referred to, I noticed what had taken place with
regard to 50 New Testaments, which I sent to Truxillo some time ago. I
mentioned the impossibility of getting them conveyed to Truxillo under
the circumstances then existing in that place, and that in consequence
they were carried to Guayaquil. I have since received a very pleasing
letter regarding their reception in that place, of which the following is
an extract.