Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute, and I went into business then.
Mr. HUBERT. That became known as what?
Mrs. GRANT. That became known as the Singapore Supper Club for a little
over a year, and it was a very sad—it was too nice a club for that part
of town there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did Jack join you in that venture?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he was a partner in it.
Mr. HUBERT. And he actually helped operate it?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; listen, I want to tell you, he did all the operating,
and the truth of the matter is, had he not known how bad that
neighborhood was—you see, I didn’t know, because I didn’t mingle
with anybody and I didn’t understand about certain—what they call
the tenderloin district, I never heard the word. He was mad that I
got involved in that with so much money and then all this work—this
struggle for 2 years—It took 2 and 2½ years or 3 years until they built
the building.
Mr. HUBERT. He came in what year—Jack did?
Mrs. GRANT. He came right after he got out of service and it seems to
me it was in 1948.
Mr. HUBERT. And he stayed with you running this club for some time?
Mrs. GRANT. I left shortly. I went on the road—I went on the west coast
and I was selling fishing tackle for Harvey Phillips, and then I got
another line—of radios.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to say then that when Jack came, you
left—just about?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, shortly after that.
Mr. HUBERT. You sold out to him?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I just gave him power of attorney. It’s my brother.
Mr. HUBERT. And he invested $1,100?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he invested a lot more—he got more money out of what he
sold out of his business in Chicago and I don’t know how much his end
of the Earl Products came to.
Mr. HUBERT. He sold or closed the Singapore Supper Club?
Mrs. GRANT. He changed the name to the Silver Spur because that name
would fit better in that area.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you have an interest in the Silver Spur?
Mrs. GRANT. He sent me some money when I was broke or sick or I didn’t
work or the weather was too hot.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t have any financial interest in the Singapore
Club?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, I put in money because I made money in the brokerage
business. Every time I made money, I would throw it back in—I put it
back in.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was the arrangement between you and Jack as to
the ownership of the Silver Spur?
Mrs. GRANT. We were partners.
Mr. HUBERT. Half and half?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but there was never any half and half. I can’t explain
it. He was there and things were so bad, we were lucky we were eating.
That’s one of the reasons I left and went out to the west coast on the
road with the fishing tackle.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed away from Dallas as I understand it, until
approximately 1959, wasn’t it?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; I was here lots of times.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I understand that, but I mean—you didn’t come back
here to live on a permanent basis?
Mrs. GRANT. I was here—I was here the next year—the year after that,
and I stayed 2 years and he got involved with another club that a
fellow was wanting to sell it and it was called Hernando’s Hideaway and
I think that was in 1952 or 1953, and by then—Jack always had his hands
in two or three places—whether they are making money or not, and I ran
this other club, if I remember, and then I ran the Vegas Club for a
while.
Mr. HUBERT. But you came back to Dallas, so that it was on a permanent
basis, in what year?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know how long I was here then.
Mr. HUBERT. But I think you mentioned a little while ago that you
haven’t been out of town—out of this town for 4 or 5 years?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, I am here 4 years constantly.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I am talking about.
Mrs. GRANT. But this time I was gone about a year and a half or 2, but
I have been back here, but I didn’t come to stay.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I understand, so that during the period from
1948 to roughly 1958, a period of 10 years, you were in and out of
Dallas, of course?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But, you didn’t have any connection with any of Jack’s
operations here?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, in the early fifties when I came, I worked at the
Vegas Club and as I said, I ran this Hernando’s Hideaway.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the circumstances of Jack’s acquisition of the
Vegas Club?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us briefly how that came about?
Mrs. GRANT. I know this, that he sold the other club—I may be wrong—for
$4,500. I don’t know the exact amount—but I have an idea it was around
$4,500 and he bought this club with a couple other fellows.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know them?
Mrs. GRANT. I never met them—I know I heard the name Joe Bonds—I never
saw him in my life. Maybe if I saw him I didn’t know it was him. When I
came he was in jail.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Martin Gimpel or Marty Gimpel?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, Marty, may he rest in peace, is a real nice guy.
Mr. HUBERT. He’s dead now, isn’t he?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—he worked for the Post Office.
Mr. HUBERT. He has been dead some time?
Mrs. GRANT. Not over 2½ years.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the Vegas Club?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me he may have been in with Jack and maybe
even—you see, there was a time he may have even taken over—Jack let
him take over the Silver Spur and Jack went into a business called—the
club—does it say Bob Wills’ Ranch House there, something like that,
anything about Bob Wills’ Ranch House?
Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am. Did he have some interest in that?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, and it’s here in town—it’s not that name any more.
Jack, I think, leased or sold the Silver Spur to Marty and it was
Marty that was running the club and Jack was running the Bob Wills’
Ranch House with somebody else—oh, yes, I know the guy—Hyman Fader, or
something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that for the last 2 or 3 years you have
operated the Vegas Club for Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, three and a half years.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have been I take it, on a salaried basis?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no ownership in the club, though, I take it?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But did you have complete management and control?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, let me put it this way—every week I would give
him—like if I would have $800 and he said he needed $600 to pay bills
or $400, he would take it. I make the payroll, I pay the bills and I
didn’t go to the Federal to pay the taxes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me put it this way—you used your gross receipts,
I suppose, to pay the running expenses?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right, and when he would take any money, he would
take a lump; you know what I mean, 400 or 500, not if he made 2¼, did
he take 2¼.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep any books on the transactions?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes—what is his name—Abe Kleinman—of course, I
don’t have them—I have some of the things, but Abe Kleinman was the
accountant.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t own the land or the building of the Vegas Club?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no—no.
Mr. HUBERT. How much rent was paid; do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. 500—since I’m there.
Mr. HUBERT. $500 a month?
Mrs. GRANT. $500 a month, but I think the first year that I was there,
I think it was only 400 and something.
Mr. HUBERT. All of the help, I take it, was paid in cash?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, but everyone who signed checks. You know—I would make
out a check—I would take out their withholding and social security and
put it right on it.
Mr. HUBERT. You used a bank then for the operation of the Vegas Club?
Mrs. GRANT. We had a bank account.
Mr. HUBERT. But did you pay salaries and other expenses?
Mrs. GRANT. I paid the band and I paid the bartender and I paid a
floorman.
Mr. HUBERT. What bank was that with?
Mrs. GRANT. The Merchants’ State Bank.
Mr. HUBERT. You had a checking account there?
Mrs. GRANT. No, I didn’t. He did. But what I mean is, the checks didn’t
go through the bank. We just let them sign a check like a receipt, but
everything was on it—their names, their withholding and their social
security.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I was trying to get at—the Vegas Club or Jack
Ruby or you, yourself, for the operation of the Vegas Club, did not
have an active checking account in which money received was deposited
and expenses paid out?
Mrs. GRANT. He deposited the money every week, but it was like a round
figure, like 200. I paid for the gas, I paid the telephone and lights
and water bill on checks. I bought all the merchandise on cash and we
have receipts. He paid the rent.
Mr. HUBERT. And you paid the employees by cash, too?
Mrs. GRANT. The bartender, and the band and the floorman. The
waitresses worked on tips.
Mr. HUBERT. All the employees were paid by cash?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, but they signed receipts for it.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Who was Pauline Hall in that operation, what
did she have to do?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, sometimes she helped on the floor as a hostess and,
of course, while I was ill, she took over the management for 2 weeks
in 1963 in November. She has been a waitress in our club on and off.
She has known us about 8 years. She has been a bartender when we needed
one—she is a very nice person.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you had some trouble with your band at the
Vegas in the fall—did they quit or something of that sort?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, we had the same band leader—yes—almost 8 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mrs. GRANT. Joe Johnson.
Mr HUBERT. And what happened?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was unhappy because someone offered him more
money. We weren’t getting along, he and I, and there was always a
dissension. First of all, he wouldn’t stay on the bandstand—I had to
humor him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he quit or did you fire him?
Mrs. GRANT. No, we didn’t fire him. He made arrangements with another
night club.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was when?
Mrs. GRANT. He made arrangements unbeknownst to us, but he gave us
notice and he left, I think, the first week of November, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Raymond Jones, do you know him?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He worked at the Vegas, didn’t he?
Mrs GRANT. He worked on and off—he was a porter.
Mr. HUBERT. He was a handyman?
Mrs. GRANT. I beg your pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. He was a handyman or a porter?
Mrs. GRANT. He was a porter.
Mr. HUBERT. He quit the Vegas, didn’t he?
Mrs. GRANT. No; he has always had another job and he worked for me and
he came back—he wasn’t a very good porter. Truthfully, where he worked
the last job for 19 years, he didn’t do actually any porter work—he was
like the foreman over porters.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he stop working for the Vegas at any particular
date so that you didn’t see him thereafter?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he came back a couple of times—Jack knew him from the
Dallas Athletic Club. That’s how I got him in the first place.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he quit working for you back last fall sometime?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, call it quits—he quit a few times, I called him and
he came; he is not the most intellectual man; he can’t read or write;
he can’t sign his own name.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, he stopped working for you?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I fired him a couple of times and he came back. I
don’t know how you would—it isn’t any quitting—he never showed up. In
fact, he worked for me right around New Year’s again.
Mr. HUBERT. You had nothing to do, as I understand, with the operation
of the Sovereign Club or the Carousel, but perhaps you can tell us
something about how those two clubs came into existence and what you
know about them?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, first, I wasn’t in town to begin with, and when I did
arrive here, that club was in existence.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?
Mrs. GRANT. That was the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s on Commerce Street, isn’t it?
Mrs. GRANT. 1312½ Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s an upstairs location?
Mrs. GRANT. And I understand Jack has taken money from Earl and
probably from my sister Mary and God knows who else in the family—there
was none of his money in there—if he had a thousand dollars of his
money, it was a lot of money.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a corporation, to your knowledge?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who are the owners of the stock?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, from what I knew—Ralph Paul put in some money and
that was another thing. He is quite a well-to-do man and I think he
wanted Jack to be a success, whether he loaned or gave him money—I
don’t know, but I know he was connected with the club, and Leo Torti,
I think Jack owed him a little. Jack promised or owed him some money,
made him part of the corporation and the first that started out it was
with Earl being in it, but the State doesn’t allow an outsider to be in
a corporation of that type when you carry a liquor license and I think
they rehashed it later on and it went over a few times—it started out
with the people I didn’t know, but ones I got to know later on was Joe
Slayton and another fellow who I still don’t know who he is. There was
three partners—Jack represented Earl, Earl gave him the money. Jack
encouraged Earl to give him the money to go into this thing and to this
day, and this is truthfully, I think he owes Earl $8,500 on that deal
alone, and I’m making it low. I don’t know all the money Earl had given
him from time to time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the existence of a corporation called
Sovereign, Incorporated?
Mrs. GRANT. No; it’s called S & R Corp. or R & S. Yes; I know it now
and I knew it when I came to town. He told me about it.
Mr. HUBERT. But did you ever hear of a corporation called Sovereign
Club, Incorporated, or Inc.?
Mrs. GRANT. It could be the same club if it is. Now, since then Ralph
was so disgusted when Jack got in all this trouble, he gave me the
stock—his stock.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he own that stock that you’ve got—do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. I guess so.
Mr. HUBERT. He gave you the certificates, you mean?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; there’s no name on them—I have it at home—I think it
says 500 shares.
Mr. HUBERT. The name was just in blank?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, he didn’t have to endorse it over to you?
Mrs. GRANT. I told him we were going to sell it and he said, “You
endorse it over to the other person.”
Mr. HUBERT. But he did not endorse it over, he just gave you the
certificates?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he had a letter with the attorney—they went up to an
attorney called Graham Koch [spelling] K-o-c-h. Anyway, he would know
more about it than I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Ralph Paul was holding that stock as
owner or as security for money owed?
Mrs. GRANT. Who knows?
Mr. HUBERT. But do you know that?
Mrs. GRANT. I know Ralph must have given Jack a lot of money that he
never got back; believe me, let me tell you.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Jack talked to you at all about any nightclubs that he
proposed to open?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he first talk to you about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Listen, now, he didn’t say he was going to open it, he
says, “This would be a good private club,” and I think he took me then
on a street here to Maple or Cedar Springs, and I guess he was going to
ask Ralph Paul for money, to be honest, they were very close.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you to be a part of it?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he didn’t tell me.
Mr. HUBERT. How far had those plans gone, do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. I looked at the outside of the building with him late at
night—3 o’clock in the morning. Now, wait a minute, he had seen it—he
had been in it—whatever this building is, and to this day I’d like to
find it because someone else told me that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when that was that he showed that building to
you?
Mrs. GRANT. It seemed to me that it was in the summer and once early in
the fall, or it could have been in October.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what he was going to do with the Vegas and the
Carousel?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t say anything about the Vegas or the Carousel, but
I’ll tell you, the Carousel in my estimation wasn’t making any money
and it made him sick, and one of the reasons was he said that all the
other clubs that sell liquor over the bar—you see, this State has very
peculiar liquor laws and he said with a downtown club he could get a
lot of members to go into this private club, but he did look at this
building a few times because he talked about it and he is the biggest
planner you’ve ever seen about something that don’t develop in his mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, does the name Gene Schriver [spelling]
S-c-h-r-i-v-e-r, mean anything to you?
Mrs. GRANT. Is that a girl or a fellow; do you know?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, we knew a Jean that worked for him as a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the last name Schriver?
Mrs. GRANT. Not that I know of. I knew a lot of girls that worked for
them but I didn’t know their last names.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did she do?
Mrs. GRANT. She was a waitress up there—a couple of years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, she was there two or three times. She got mad at Jack
and went over and worked for the Colony Club, if it’s the same little
girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she working with Jack at the time of the death of the
President?
Mrs. GRANT. Gee, I don’t know; I don’t remember who was working there.
I know one cute little girl and I couldn’t think of her name unless it
came up.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Frank Goldstein?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he used to work with him selling subscriptions in San
Francisco and when Jack was having trouble with the union—he hasn’t
spoken to that fellow in 26 years and I believe it, because I’ve
been on the west coast off and on, and Frank often asks, “Why don’t
you write to me or call?” Last fall, in fact, in November—as late as
November, I think Jack made the first call to Frank Goldstein because
things were getting very bad.
Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, that phone call made to Goldstein was the
first connection between Jack and Goldstein——
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute, let me finish my question—in some
considerable number of years?
Mrs. GRANT. I know that for a fact because I used to go to the west
coast and see Frank every 5 years—5 or 7 years and we talked about him
and I don’t remember Jack or him ever saying they talked or wrote and
Frank, I don’t think, could write.
Mr. HUBERT. But as far as you know, he had no connection with him; is
that right?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but I do know he is a gambler and it is very well
emphasized in San Francisco that he is a gambler.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Benny Barrish?
Mrs. GRANT. Benny—I heard he is a liquor salesman. I knew him when we
were on the west coast. He’s a Chicagoan. He came out there in 1935 and
as far as I know he’s a liquor salesman.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last connection you had with him?
Mrs. GRANT. I saw him about 8 or 9 or 10 years ago when I went to San
Francisco.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen him or corresponded with him in any way by
telephone?
Mrs. GRANT. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack ever knew him?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, sure. We knew him from Chicago as kids, but I’m
sure Jack hasn’t—now, I won’t say positive I know Jack hasn’t for
any reason, unless during this month—this particular month where he
was having trouble early in the fall of 1963 with regard to amateur
auditions at his club. He had contacted people all over the country
trying to find out who knew the bigwigs in the union where the AGVA,
you know, the big shots—who they were that run the union.
Mr. HUBERT. Would Benny Barrish be the sort of person who might know
something or be able to do something about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he gets around—he knew and knows people in the liquor
business that have entertainments in San Francisco—it might be.
Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, Jack has made no connections out there
in anyway for some time?
Mrs. GRANT. In over 12 years—I would swear to this that he has had no
connection out there since before the war and he has never been west
of 100 miles of this area in that time. I have many, many times heard
where people said he went to Las Vegas. He hasn’t been there only once
with me and I think that was when we went to—from Los Angeles back and,
of course, that must have been in 1937 or 1938, and he has not been
back.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby, your brother, or communicate with
him every day, would you say, for a period of 60 to 90 days prior to
November 24?
Mrs. GRANT. Every day? I don’t say I saw him every day, but I would say
I heard him on the phone three to five times.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you be willing to say then that to the best of your
knowledge he was not out of the city of Dallas during that period, that
is to say——
Mrs. GRANT. Well, wait a minute, didn’t he go to New York in August?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was going to except August at that point—that’s why
I put it at 90 days.
Mrs. GRANT. Didn’t he go to see a fellow, Joe Glazer, who was the head
of a certain union?
Mr. HUBERT. We have evidence that he did go to New York in August, but
after that trip—let’s put it this way, from September 25 until November
25 just a period of 2 months, can you state to us now that to the best
of your knowledge, Jack was not out of the Dallas area?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember him going out.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, do you have any indication whatsoever of any
kind that he might have gone to Las Vegas during this period?
Mrs. GRANT. That—I swear.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you certainly would have known it if he had been
gone, say 3 or 4 days, wouldn’t you?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, for one more reason, he would advise me to keep it
quiet and to collect the money to see that Andy does this or that.
Mr. HUBERT. And there is nothing to indicate to you whatsoever that he
was in Las Vegas during September or October or November of 1963?
Mrs. GRANT. But I know he has made many calls to the same fellow,
McWillie. I would say he made at least 10 calls in those 3 months.
Mr. HUBERT. And what would be the reason for those calls?
Mrs. GRANT. The same thing—Willie might know somebody in Las Vegas,
since there is that type of entertainment, with these amateurs.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you he was calling these various people
because of this trouble with the union?
Mrs. GRANT. It seemed to me—well, he was so bitter against Barney—I
shouldn’t say this because—it’s just sickening—because they didn’t mean
to hurt him—Barney and Abe Weinstein and he felt—the union sent him a
telegram to quit these amateur auditions and they sent it to Abe and
Barney, but they wouldn’t quit, but Jack figured they had an “in” with
the big guys, you know, and Jack couldn’t get to this fellow, and he
told me that he called McWillie. In fact, he may have called him even 3
days before that—he was just sick about this.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was McWillie, and I think you mentioned another person
earlier, Lenny Patrick he called?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Lenny Patrick he called in Chicago—one time, and he
was not there, and until he got his number—he called 15 different
people from what I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. What I was getting at is this—your explanation that if
he called Goldstein and Barrish and McWillie and so forth, your
explanation that those calls were made in connection with this
difficulty about the amateur night thing—was that information obtained
by you from Ruby, or are you just giving us your opinion of what those
calls were about?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he has discussed this with me many times and I
didn’t go to the downtown club too often, but when I did go there, it
so happened either September or October on a particular Sunday night,
whichever Sunday night it was—there are five Sundays and whichever
Sunday it would be, and the Vegas Club would be closed on Sunday, he
told me he had just gotten through talking to somebody and I’ll be
honest about it, it just went in one ear and out the other, because I
figured that——
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see what I am trying to get at and that is
whether or not your statements that those calls were made in connection
with this AGVA business derives from him directly or whether it is
merely your opinion that those calls were about that?
Mrs. GRANT. It is not only my opinion, we talked about it. We had
discussed it and he had told me.
Mr. HUBERT. So that that does come—that information, then does come
directly from Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, and one other thing, when I called home, I spoke to
my older brother and he knows Jack Yanover. My brother Jack did not
know Jack Yanover like my older brother.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s who?
Mrs. GRANT. Hyman; he’s a friend of his and my older brother in this
conversation said to me, “I told him to call Jack Yanover. Maybe he
knows somebody because Yanover has some kind of saloon in Chicago,”
that’s in my estimation because of the way it looks, and this all went
on and Jack used to rehash it with me until it—well, I know that’s what
that call was for.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was all during the period then of September and
October?
Mrs. GRANT. In the summer—last summer and he also told me, you know,
he told me during one of those months he said, “I tried to call Lenny
Patrick,” and he said, “I got his number,” he got it from somebody and
I don’t know who, what and I didn’t give a darn.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you all of this prior to November 24?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, sure. To tell you the truth, the way I see Jack through
this little glass, he has very little to say.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Robert McKeown [spelling]
M-c-K-e-o-w-n, or have you ever heard of him?
Mrs. GRANT. Is it a Dallas man?
Mr. HUBERT. I believe not.
Mrs. GRANT. Would it be my friend or Jack’s friend?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would probably be Jack’s friend. Did Jack ever
tell you of contacting him by telephone and going to see him in the
Galveston area concerning the selling of jeeps to Castro?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, I know Jack was in Cuba 6 or 7 years ago or one of
those years.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes; you told us about that—that was when he went to
join McWillie for a little while?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and I also know that I did hear the story about jeeps.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, let me say this—I don’t know whether I heard it
last year or the year before, but I do remember something in a
conversation—some guy told him he knew where there were 400 or 800
jeeps or 80 jeeps and whether Jack went down—Jack went to Houston
first of all—he did go to Houston last year to see a man from a night
club. They were going to exchange acts or work in a deal, but I don’t
remember who the man was, and this all came about, but Jack, I’ll tell
you, he isn’t that kind of a promoter.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack tell you about the jeeps?
Mrs. GRANT. This was the deal with McWillie at the time and we were on
friendly terms, as much as I remember about it, and I think he shoved
it off.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it the jeep proposition that had something to do with
Jack’s visit to McWillie in Havana in 1959?
Mrs. GRANT. Jack was very depressed, he was having a lot of trouble,
that McWillie sent him as much as I know, a ticket to come to Havana to
have a week or 10 days vacation. That’s as much as I know of the whole
darn thing and deal outside of the talking about jeeps at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that visit have anything to do with the jeeps in
addition to the rest and vacation that you know of? Now, don’t guess
about it.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but I heard “Jeeps” but I didn’t pay too much
attention to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, the real fact is you don’t know much about it?
Mrs. GRANT. I really don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard something about jeeps about that time, but you
are not in a position really to say that you know yea or nay—yes or
no—whether Jack’s visit to Havana with McWillie had to do with jeeps or
not; isn’t that right?
Mrs. GRANT. Do you know that I didn’t know at the time he was in
Havana. I knew this a few years later.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is—the real fact is you don’t have any
knowledge of it—of the real facts?
Mrs. GRANT. I have no specific knowledge of it, but I do know that my
sister told me he was down in Havana. He called Chicago from there and
he said he’s in Havana and I think he spoke to Marion Carroll—that
sister.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Lawrence Meyers?
Mrs. GRANT. I knew a Meyers but I can’t think of his first name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him or meet him during the first 3 weeks of
November 1963?
Mrs. GRANT. Not that I know—I can’t think of it—no; this fellow I knew
years ago, but I can’t think of his first name—gee, that isn’t his
first name. He used to live here in town on Lemmon Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Alex Gruber?
Mrs. GRANT. You mean Al Gruber on the West Coast?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mrs. GRANT. I heard his name around the house 30 years—Jack knew him
when they were young.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that Jack had called him on the night of the
President’s death?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how you knew it?
Mrs. GRANT. Either late that evening or the next day he talked to Al
and there was something in the conversation—Al was here early in the
fall and in fact coming through—I was in the hospital and he promised
Al a dog and it seems to me I called him—I must have called him later
on; anyway, when I did call him a week or so later or whenever I did,
I don’t know, but it was after this incident, Al said, “You know, Jack
was crying when he called me on the day of the assassination?”
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack himself tell you he had called?
Mrs. GRANT. No; Al told me. I had called Al myself. I had called Al
within 10 days of the President’s assassination, something regarding to
the dog.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am; I understand that—you mean before the
President’s assassination?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. After?
Mrs. GRANT. But Jack has talked to him before too—some weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. But did Jack tell you that or did Gruber tell you that?
Mrs. GRANT. No; Al told me this.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not know that Jack had called Gruber on the night
of the President’s assassination until Gruber himself told you?
Mrs. GRANT. No; it seems to me that Jack even may have mentioned it,
but still I made a call myself to Al in regards to the dog. Jack said
he promised him a certain dog.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say Gruber had been through Dallas?
Mrs. GRANT. While I was in the hospital in November—in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him then?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I did. He visited me at the Gaston Hospital.
Mr. HUBERT. You were hospitalized for how long?
Mrs. GRANT. For about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of your illness; do you recall?
Mrs. GRANT. Tumor and hysterectomy.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were in there about a week?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your relationship with Jack from the standpoint
of, say, personal relationship as brother and sister and, of course, as
comanager—were you on a friendly basis?
Mrs. GRANT. Most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Any difficulties between you sometimes?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; lots of times. We got along a lot of times like a
disagreeable man and wife. If my band leader complained it was no good.
If I complained it was no good.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack’s attitude generally toward politics; do you
know?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t have any.
Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge did he belong to any kind of
organizations whatsoever?
Mrs. GRANT. Not one that I could put my—outside of the YW—YMCA
or something to that effect or the union connected with the
musicians’ union or AGVA, and maybe three or four private clubs
around—entertainment clubs.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sort of attitudes toward conservatism or
liberalism or any kind of “ism”?
Mrs. GRANT. All I know—he’s a good American and he is far better than a
lot of people are.
Mr. HUBERT. But, did you ever notice any interest that he had in
pro-Cuban affairs or anti-Cuban affairs or pro-Castro or anti-Castro or
anything of that sort?
Mrs. GRANT. This is the exact words when they spit on Stevenson last
fall—Jack and I were going to dinner or coming to dinner and someway
or somehow we were sitting in the car—his car—and he looked at me and
he says, “Isn’t that awful?” He says, “They ought to knock their heads
together.” Now, we were told two young fellows out of college or in
college did that and he says, “To think—a man devotes his time” and he
went on for a couple of minutes, and that was it, and I remember the
incident of—I’ll tell you—he respects high people and he admires highly
educated, cultured people—good family men.
Mr. HUBERT. Well the answer to my question, I gather, from what you
have said, then, is that Jack did not have any ideas that were pro-Cuba
or anti-Cuba or pro-Castro or anti-Castro?
Mrs. GRANT. He was against communism from the beginning of when it even
entered his mind. I don’t know what year—maybe 35 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he express himself on that?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t have to—from the things he done—was too
American—too much American.
Mr. HUBERT. But my point is—I gather from that that he never discussed
with you his feelings about communism or anything—it’s just that you
observed that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I’m not an intellectual on those subjects, to be
honest about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he the type of man that would be interested in these
subjects himself?
Mrs. GRANT. No; not to express it openly or fight with it—in this
manner, if you said anything against anybody or anything big of our
country that is Americanism—you might as well—he would knock the hell
out of you.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying to me is that if he has
any kind of “ism” at all, it would be Americanism?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—he has that—he does have that—that’s his
greatest.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack never married, did he?
Mrs. GRANT. No; he was engaged to a young lady here.
Mr. HUBERT. What generally was his attitude toward women; do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, in his late life I think he was sort of a playboy
myself, but in his early life he wanted to get married. There were
several individuals he had a great love for and the trouble is, he
picked on women who were of means and he couldn’t give them what they
wanted. He could tell from the way they were reared or their attitude,
and how they expressed themselves when they get married—what they
wanted, and I think it sort of cooled him toward making it. He liked
women. He was a real man.
Mr. HUBERT. I understood he took good care of himself physically?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In the sense that he took physical exercise regularly?
Mrs. GRANT. And the truth is, he has a great sympathy for women who are
left with hardships and maybe it started with me or my mother—if they
have to work and do a lot of things—it was in the back of his mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack didn’t drink very much, did he?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t drink a fifth of liquor a year. When we went out,
we ordered two drinks, I would drink mine and have to drink two-thirds
of his. Then, we were ashamed to sit there and he would order it
again—not that I’m such a big drinker, but that’s what he did.
Mr. HUBERT. What about smoking—he didn’t smoke either, did he?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember but once he had a cigar in his mouth,
a couple of years ago at a party and maybe he had three or four
cigarettes in his life, that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you and he have any difficulties about the girl that he
was going out with one time and I think Rabbi Silverman had to kind of
intervene?
Mrs. GRANT. That he was going with? That wasn’t it—it wasn’t about a
girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did have a disagreement?
Mrs. GRANT. A very big disagreement—early this summer of 1963—it was in
the early part of the summer. It was over money. He had $800 or $900
and he wanted to pay bills and somebody encountered him who needed
their car fixed or something and I think he paid for the car and he
didn’t pay the electric bills, and when he went to jail in November—3
months of the Carousel’s bill on the electric company wasn’t paid and
it ran almost $800 or $900 for 3 months.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the particular argument about then—that he had
loaned some money to someone?
Mrs. GRANT. No; it was not the first occasion only—this one—that’s
the time that I blew my top and I had been sick—I have been in very
bad physical condition and he wanted me to get out of the club, and
Leo Torti who worked for us on weekends told him that I was having a
difficult time and I should be in the hospital and he said, “I gave you
money to go to the hospital,” and he gave me a push and I had just got
some new high heeled shoes and I went back about 8 feet and I hurt my
arm and my shoulder and he wanted me out of the Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose car did he have repaired with the money you thought
he should have used for the lights?
Mrs. GRANT. Some family man—he does that—I haven’t the least idea and I
don’t think he did either.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find out it was used to repair someone’s car?
Mrs. GRANT. Some man come in my club weeks later and says, “Your
brother was in,” and I didn’t even know this man’s business, and he
said he works there as a car mechanic and he says, “He got someone’s
car out of hock,” so I figured maybe it was his car—I didn’t think of
it.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that man, do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. Some customer at the Vegas Club—if I saw him, I would know
him.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but I knew his appearances. He was one like the
regulars who come about every month one time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what kind of car he drove?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I was in the club—I wouldn’t know what the patrons
were driving, but he did repair someone’s car and it was a family man
that was supposed to go on the road or some darn thing and if I’m not
mistaken, as far as I know, my brother never got the money back. It
wasn’t $800 worth of repairs, but these are the things that he did.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the twistboard deal, can you tell us about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he met a man—I think this man lives in Fort Worth and
I think his name is out there somewhere and it says a plastic company
on that thing—I’m almost sure it is the same man, and this man was
manufacturing them and Jack had a deal with him to cover Texas, and if
it went good, Jack would get the whole United States. In fact, I think
somewhere in my apartment there might be a twistboard. I don’t know if
I ever saw the man or not, but I believe he is in either Arlington or
Fort Worth, lived there, and there is a twistboard that Jack—he sold
quite a number—he sent some out to different people.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Earl interested in that?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. Earl’s partner, I think, is a friend that he
knows—we call him George—in a laundry in Detroit. Whether he was or
has been—I don’t think Earl wanted—in Earl’s business with this man, I
think the contract reads he cannot go into another business. I may be
wrong, but I’m almost sure that’s what I remember Earl saying at one
time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Earl had any interest in the twistboard
operations at all?
Mrs. GRANT. I doubt it, unless he advanced Jack some money, but I don’t
think there was that much money put into it. The man let Jack have,
say, a hundred twistboards and he paid for them and I don’t know too
much about it, but I did have them in the club and we gave them away as
prizes and I know Jack contacted weight salons where women go to reduce
about them.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any contact whatsoever with Ralph
Paul?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. During the period from November 22 through November 24, up
until the time Oswald was shot?
Mrs. GRANT. Me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think I even talked to him during those days.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean.
Mrs. GRANT. You know, I assume him and Jack were very good friends.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m not suggesting to the contrary.
Mrs. GRANT. He never did call me and I never called him—I don’t
remember calling him. I have called him many times since then.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I know, but I’m talking about during this particular
period of 3 days.
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he has ever called me—I have called him.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean—let’s restrict ourselves for the moment to the
three days of November 22, 23, and 24.
Mrs. GRANT. He may have called me on the 24th of November.
Mr. HUBERT. After Oswald was shot?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was at least 20 calls when I did not pick up
the phone—people in my home did.
Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am; that’s not what I’m talking about but let me get
at it this way—was there any contact between you and Ralph Paul from
the time the President was shot until the time Oswald was shot?
Mrs. GRANT. No; definitely not. Can I go back with something?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am.
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain about this Raymond Jones. He worked for 19
years at the Dallas Athletic Club and when Jack got in trouble, the
very next week he had made a remark to his boss, whoever he is, “I’m
going to see my friend,” they said, “Where are you going?” And he said,
“I’m going to see my friend,” and they said, “Who is your friend?” And
he said, “Jack Ruby.” They told him that if he went to see Jack that he
didn’t have a job. He says, “Well,”—he came back and he went to see
Jack and he couldn’t get in and he came to see me at the Club and he
says he just quit. I said, “After 19 years?”
Mr. HUBERT. The Vegas was closed too, was it not?
Mrs. GRANT. It was closed on and off a few times after that.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean, the Vegas was closed on November 22, November
23, and November 24?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, 2 days after that—it was closed for 5 days.
Mr. HUBERT. And then ultimately it was sold?
Mrs. GRANT. Then, I opened it again and I closed it and I opened it for
New Year’s and I closed it permanently January 4.
Mr. HUBERT. Until when?
Mrs. GRANT. Until someone else bought it—it wasn’t in operation until
this woman got her license, which was about the 1st of March.
Mr. HUBERT. And of course the Carousel closed too because of the
license lapsing—the liquor license?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; they closed February the 12th, from what I understand—
their liquor license was revoked.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s take a break for a few minutes.
Mrs. GRANT. You mentioned a man’s name McKeown or something like that;
may I ask you what he does?
Mr. BURLESON. Let’s take a break now, Eva.
(The deposition proceedings were recessed as heretofore stated and
continued as hereinafter shown.)
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the deposition is continuing after
the recess at 9:10 p.m. and that Mr. Burleson will ask some questions
with respect to the block of questions and the areas covered by those
questions before I go on.
Mr. BURLESON. Mrs. Grant, you were saying out at the Vegas Club that
the employees were paid in cash, and you mentioned something about
giving them some type of check with their name on it. Would the
transaction be such that you would give them a check and then cash the
check for them in effect?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s exactly it, but the check never went through the
bank procedure. It was like a voucher that they had received that money
on.
Mr. BURLESON. Was it on a regular bank draft that it was made out on?
Mrs. GRANT. Most of the time.
Mr. BURLESON. And the net effect would be that you would give them a
check and then cash it for them and take the check back and give them
cash?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I put the check in an envelope and I would have—like
your salary is $65, withholding and social security, and write on the
back of the envelope that, and a lot of them kept their envelopes and a
lot of them threw it out and they had signed the check and returned it
and the balance of what money they should receive was in there.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, you were in the hospital the first part of November
1963?
Mrs. GRANT. I was sick for a solid week.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, you had been having some trouble for quite some time?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. And as a matter of fact, Jack had been trying to get you
to go into the hospital because the doctors had advised him and you
that you needed this operation immediately? And you had been prepared
on at least one, or maybe more than one occasion, to go to the hospital
and everything had been arranged for the operation and you backed out
at the last moment?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. And Jack knew that you were having this trouble and knew
that the doctors recommended that, and you talked with your doctors
about this?
Mrs. GRANT. All through the whole week.
Mr. BURLESON. And finally he was able to get you in the hospital there
the first part of November 1963; is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And you then had what—a partial or complete hysterectomy,
or do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. I know they took out a tremendous tumor and a lot of
things—I didn’t ask because I don’t know what parts it was.
Mr. BURLESON. Who was the doctor?
Mrs. GRANT. Bill Aranov.
Mr. BURLESON. Then you got out of the hospital 7 days after the 6th,
which would have been about the 13th?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. And that was in the middle of a week—about a Wednesday,
wasn’t it?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; Wednesday—that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you given some medication after you left the
hospital?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, not for a few days, I would say, but about the third
or fourth day I got pretty bad.
Mr. BURLESON. You started what—hurting and being in pain?
Mrs. GRANT. Tremendous pain.
Mr. BURLESON. And did this doctor that had operated on you prescribe
some pills?
Mrs. GRANT. His coworker or assistant—I think his name is Dr. Bookatz.
Mr. BURLESON. But, at any rate, a doctor did prescribe some pills. What
type of pills were they, do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. I believe that they have codeine in it.
Mr. BURLESON. What would be the effect on you that these pills would
have?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, they put me into a trance and made my body stiff and
I didn’t have any more pain but I wasn’t as alert as I usually was.
Mr. BURLESON. Did it affect your thinking?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack visit you in the hospital?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; two or three times a day—mostly two times anyway.
Mr. BURLESON. And called on the phone sometimes?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; and sent me three bouquets of flowers and
everything.
Mr. BURLESON. And how long did you take this medicine after you started
taking it—2 or 3 days after you got out of the hospital?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I really didn’t start to take it until the weekend
after I was home.
Mr. BURLESON. That would have been the weekend about the 16th?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. And how long did you take it?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was 1 or 2 days I cut down and then I—about the
21st, which was a Thursday, I had an unusual severe pain and I started
all over again.
Mr. BURLESON. Taking heavy doses of it?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, they are tablets and I called his nurse and she
suggested to take them but not as often as I did when I complained it
threw me into a trance but it still did, because I am not a pill taker
and I guess pills work a little better on me.
Mr. BURLESON. Were you taking pills on the day of the 22d of November?
Mrs. GRANT. I already had two pills by the time the President was
assassinated—these pills are prescribed one every 4 hours.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you subscribe to the Dallas Morning News or did you
back on November 22?
Mrs. GRANT. No, no; but my manager was very sympathetic.
Mr. BURLESON. Your manager?
Mrs. GRANT. My manager brought it up every day she came to the
apartment.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s your manager at the apartment house?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And she brought it up—the paper?
Mrs. GRANT. Every day.
Mr. BURLESON. About what time of the morning on November 22 did she
bring it up?
Mrs. GRANT. It may have been around 11 o’clock.
Mr. BURLESON. Had you heard from Jack before that concerning the ad?
Mrs. GRANT. No; shortly—it seemed within the next 20 minutes I would
think that he may have called.
Mr. BURLESON. Had you seen the ads by Bernard Weissman by the time Jack
called?